Mailing List Archive

Je Dimanĉo 18 Majo 2003 19:25, rednblack@alum.mit.edu skribis:
> Thought this might be a good pipe trick addition, been pining for it
> for a while:
>
> [[Mexic|o]]an => <a href=/wiki/Mexico>Mexican</a>

There was a feature request like this a while ago, let's see if I can
dig it out of the tracker:

http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&aid=586885&group_id=34373&atid=411195

(If you can't get the URL to work, go to wikipedia.sourceforge.net,
click the 'feature requests' link, and scroll down to the link to
#586885 "Advanced free linking".)

Basically people decided it would just be too confusing; though your
proposal is a bit simpler than what was proposed there. Scroll down to
the bottom of the above-linked page for my comments on similar usage.

The particular syntax you suggest is something I would not recommend, as
it overloads a legitimate, if rarely useful ;) use of the present
markup. That is, "[[Mexic|o]]an" would produce a link that looks like
"oan" and links to "Mexic". Making it do the divide-and-conquer trick
may be potentially problematic.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

rednblack@alum.mit.edu wrote:

>Hi,
>
>Thought this might be a good pipe trick addition, been pining for it for a
>while:
>
>[[Mexic|o]]an => <a href=/wiki/Mexico>Mexican</a>
>
>
>
starting to get complex.
Why not create [[Mexican]] as a redirect page?

rednblack@alum.mit.edu schrieb:
> Thought this might be a good pipe trick addition, been pining for it for a
> while:
>
> [[Mexic|o]]an => <a href=/wiki/Mexico>Mexican</a>
>
> Shouldn't really break anything, because no one would use pipe text and
> trailing text together anyway,

I've seen this often, at least in the German Wikipedia.

> and this saves a lot of retyping (which is
> what pipe tricks are all about, after all).

But the software should please expand those tricks on save. Not all our
editor are hackers.

Kurt

On Sun, 18 May 2003 rednblack@alum.mit.edu wrote:

>
> Hi,
>
> Thought this might be a good pipe trick addition, been pining for it for a
> while:
>
> [[Mexic|o]]an => <a href=/wiki/Mexico>Mexican</a>
>
> Shouldn't really break anything, because no one would use pipe text and
> trailing text together anyway,

I'm not so sure about that. Sure, one would not usually write
"...unless one uses [[foobar|foo]]s.", but if [[foo]] is a disambiguation
page, one might have "...unless one uses [[foo]]s" be corrected to
"...unless one uses [[foobar|foo]]s." for disambiguation.

Andre Engels

On Mon, 19 May 2003, tarquin wrote:

>
>
> rednblack@alum.mit.edu wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >Thought this might be a good pipe trick addition, been pining for it for a
> >while:
> >
> >[[Mexic|o]]an => <a href=/wiki/Mexico>Mexican</a>
> >
> >
> >
> starting to get complex.
> Why not create [[Mexican]] as a redirect page?

That would solve things for en:, but not for some other languages. For example,
in Latin all of the following could be forms to redirect at [[domus]]:

[[domi]], [[domum]], [[domo]], [[domos]], [[domorum]], [[domis]] (and perhaps
also [[dome]]). And similar for almost every word. Then a trick like the
above would be much welcome, it seems.

Andre Engels

Andre Engels wrote:
> > Why not create [[Mexican]] as a redirect page?
>
> That would solve things for en:, but not for some other languages. For example,
> in Latin all of the following could be forms to redirect at [[domus]]:
>
> [[domi]], [[domum]], [[domo]], [[domos]], [[domorum]], [[domis]] (and perhaps
> also [[dome]]). And similar for almost every word. Then a trick like the
> above would be much welcome, it seems.

Swedish, Danish, and Norwegian are about as complicated as Latin in
this respect (Swedish words have 4.5 forms on *average*), while German
is a little lighter (perhaps 3 forms per word), and Finnish is a lot
heavier (I'd guess 10 forms per word on average).

Still, the free spell checker "ispell" is able to "stem" most forms
down to the correct basic word, except for the relatively few
ambiguous cases. The existing ispell dictionaries for various
languages already contain the information necessary for this.

Using stemming (based on ispell) could be useful both as an automatic
URL redirection, and during searches. Commercial "text retrieval"
databases do this, but I haven't heard of any open websites or web
search engines or free software that use this technology.

For searching, you could either stem each word before you index the
text corpus, or you could "unstem" each search expression, so that a
search for "domus" actually searches for "domus OR domi OR domum OR
domo OR domos OR ...".

The next step would be to "stem" synonyms into "concepts", so that a
search for "car" returns hits on "automobile", as well. At some point
of generalization, you just get too many hits. So maybe perfect hits
should be prioritized over stemming hits, which in turn get prio over
synonym hits. Just like title hits get prio over fulltext hits today.

This is a new direction that I have thought about, but never got
around to implement. Does anybody have any experience to share?


--
Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se/

On Mon, 19 May 2003, Lars Aronsson wrote:
> Andre Engels wrote:
> > [[domi]], [[domum]], [[domo]], [[domos]], [[domorum]], [[domis]] (and perhaps
> > also [[dome]]). And similar for almost every word. Then a trick like the
> > above would be much welcome, it seems.

A trick we've used occasionally on an experimental basis on the Esperanto
wiki: make a redirect for the stem.

So [[dom]] -> [[domus]], hence links [[dom]]o, [[dom]]um, [[dom]]i,
[[dom]]orum, etc.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 12:18:21PM -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Mon, 19 May 2003, Lars Aronsson wrote:
> > Andre Engels wrote:
> > > [[domi]], [[domum]], [[domo]], [[domos]], [[domorum]], [[domis]] (and perhaps
> > > also [[dome]]). And similar for almost every word. Then a trick like the
> > > above would be much welcome, it seems.
>
> A trick we've used occasionally on an experimental basis on the Esperanto
> wiki: make a redirect for the stem.
>
> So [[dom]] -> [[domus]], hence links [[dom]]o, [[dom]]um, [[dom]]i,
> [[dom]]orum, etc.

It may do with Esperanto but in most "real" languages there is more than
one spelling of the stem. Like: kobieta, kobiety, kobiecie (bzzt, different
stem form).

Brion Vibber wrote:

> A trick we've used occasionally on an experimental basis on the Esperanto
> wiki: make a redirect for the stem.
>
> So [[dom]] -> [[domus]], hence links [[dom]]o, [[dom]]um, [[dom]]i,
> [[dom]]orum, etc.

In my opinion [[foo|fooo]] is a nice pipe trick. All the others are to
confusing, and only to have a shortcut for a maxium of 3 keystrokes or some
mouseclicks more not realy necessary.

--
Smurf

smurf@AdamAnt.mud.de
------------------------- Anthill inside! ---------------------------

On Mon, 19 May 2003, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 12:18:21PM -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
> > A trick we've used occasionally on an experimental basis on the Esperanto
> > wiki: make a redirect for the stem.
> >
> > So [[dom]] -> [[domus]], hence links [[dom]]o, [[dom]]um, [[dom]]i,
> > [[dom]]orum, etc.
>
> It may do with Esperanto but in most "real" languages there is more than
> one spelling of the stem. Like: kobieta, kobiety, kobiecie (bzzt, different
> stem form).

So, most of them work great with [[kobiet]], and now and again you write
one out explicitly with the irregular stem or make a redirect on
[[kobiecie]] itself.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)

On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 12:53:14PM -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
> On Mon, 19 May 2003, Tomasz Wegrzanowski wrote:
> > On Mon, May 19, 2003 at 12:18:21PM -0700, Brion Vibber wrote:
> > > A trick we've used occasionally on an experimental basis on the Esperanto
> > > wiki: make a redirect for the stem.
> > >
> > > So [[dom]] -> [[domus]], hence links [[dom]]o, [[dom]]um, [[dom]]i,
> > > [[dom]]orum, etc.
> >
> > It may do with Esperanto but in most "real" languages there is more than
> > one spelling of the stem. Like: kobieta, kobiety, kobiecie (bzzt, different
> > stem form).
>
> So, most of them work great with [[kobiet]], and now and again you write
> one out explicitly with the irregular stem or make a redirect on
> [[kobiecie]] itself.

They are 100% regular, they are just spelled different way.

rednblack@alum.mit.edu said:
> Hi,
>
> Thought this might be a good pipe trick addition, been pining for it
> for a while:
>
> [[Mexic|o]]an => <a href=/wiki/Mexico>Mexican</a>
>
> Shouldn't really break anything, because no one would use pipe text
> and trailing text together anyway, and this saves a lot of retyping
> (which is what pipe tricks are all about, after all).

It's an interesting idea, but I think this proposed syntax
is _way_ too confusing... it's too clever. I would expect
[[Mexic|o]]an to be equivalent to [[Mexic|oan]] and I suspect
others would too.

On Mon, 2003-05-19 at 16:42, David A. Wheeler wrote:
>
> rednblack@alum.mit.edu said:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Thought this might be a good pipe trick addition, been pining for it
> > for a while:
> >
> > [[Mexic|o]]an => <a href=/wiki/Mexico>Mexican</a>
> >
> > Shouldn't really break anything, because no one would use pipe text
> > and trailing text together anyway, and this saves a lot of retyping
> > (which is what pipe tricks are all about, after all).
>
> It's an interesting idea, but I think this proposed syntax
> is _way_ too confusing... it's too clever. I would expect
> [[Mexic|o]]an to be equivalent to [[Mexic|oan]] and I suspect
> others would too.
>
Fortunately we have redirects, which have equivalent functionality and
are not confusing.

Tarquin wrote:

>Saurabh wrote:

>>[[Mexic|o]]an => <a href=/wiki/Mexico>Mexican</a>

>Why not create [[Mexican]] as a redirect page?

That could work in this case, but [[Norwegian]] is a disambiguation page
(to [[Norway]] and [[Norwegian language]]), so you'd need "[[Norw|ay]]egian".


-- Toby

Andre Engels wrote:

>Saurabh wrote:

>>[[Mexic|o]]an => <a href=/wiki/Mexico>Mexican</a>

>I'm not so sure about that. Sure, one would not usually write
>"...unless one uses [[foobar|foo]]s.",

Actually, I write "...unless one uses [[foobar|foo]]s." all the time.
If I'd known that Saurabh was going to suggest this,
then maybe I wouldn't have, but as it is ... '_`.


-- Toby