On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:14?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Zeljko
>
> Your comment is uncalled for;
>
Hi Gnangarra. Firstly I did not make a comment but a question. It was also
towards someone who felt too busy to do edits *(which is fair, I do also),
but was regretting it publicly while doing a lot of work for a friend that
is interested to participate but also be very anxious over multiple things
that could be interpreted as transphobia.
> scholarships are distributed according to many varied criteria every
> application is independently reviewed by the team.
>
I did not open the question of criteria, but if you feel like you wanna
share more as a person leading this work I would encourage you to do it
publicly and systematically on Wikimania pages.
> Each application as scored is then compared across the region maximising
> the best candidates,
>
Interesting. So the list will have regional and national listings of
awardees?
Was it done that way before? Looking forward to see this info.
> each year its been the COT that have decided what criteria to focus on.
>
Interesting. I would think it was a mix of established norms and program
focus.
This year the criteria was collaboration through outreach, and developing
> new communities because everyone contributes in different ways.
>
Fascinating. I look forward to see people who do great work here and also
who are close runners up. I see myself primarily as Outreach person *(would
love to see Outreach wiki re-gain momentum) and really wanna know of people
that are even more enthusiastic and productive in this direction.
> One thing has always remained consistent that is we discuss the topic not
> the individual, please refrain from judging the individual in future
> comments.
>
I am sorry you felt this was judging *(usually you should be in power to do
so), as I mostly echoed self-stated claims and asking questions.
> Not everyone has the same freedoms or experiences at home and that leads
> to concerns when travelling.
>
Since I would have not been legal in Singapore last year this time I am
well aware of this, however this is based on legal regulations not
hypothetical probability.
> Trust & Safety people will be readily available during the event and at
> each activity, all volunteers will have T&S training and instructions on
> where to contact the T&S team
>
That is good to know.
Thank you for fast inputs, though I was not expecting or calling it for as
you phrased it, but I do look forward now to *(delayed) the report on
Wikimania wiki.
Best wishes!
On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 at 08:30, Handoko Suwono <handokos27@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry if I am answering to the wrong thread about gender policing in
>> Singapore.
>>
>> - handoko
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 00:55 Željko Bla?e <zblace@mi2.hr> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 8:27?AM Mina Theofilatou <saintfevrier@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi and thanks a lot for your email!
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are most welcome.
>>>
>>> You also raised some super interesting topics and gave me insights in
>>> your activities and Wikimania scholarship decisions I really appreciate.
>>>
>>> I hope you do not mind this email remaining public as I really feel it
>>> is an important topic at least as much as your friend does! I hope Butch
>>> does also.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> This friend is not involved in the Wikimedia movement, she would be a
>>>> "novice". I talked to her about Wikimania - she can self-fund herself
>>>> whereas sadly I can't - and she raised some concerns.
>>>>
>>>
>>> OK - but at least you got the scholarship so you are certain you will be
>>> there?
>>> I see you are not really contributing much to Wikimedia yourself also
>>> https://guc.toolforge.org/?by=date&user=Saintfevrier
>>> Interesting that you have been selected for a Scholarship anyway again
>>> and again...is this 4th Wikimania for you?
>>>
>>> I hope few people from our QW2023 team are there as one of 3 topics is
>>> Diversity. For now I did not hear anyone got a scholarship.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The others I was able to address (respect for privacy e.g. by wearing
>>>> the special tag that photos are not desirable) but this one had me
>>>> wondering. I told her she could sign up for the mailing lists but she
>>>> preferred the discussion went through me. She's quite sensitive with her
>>>> personal data, perhaps too much so, but of course I respect her hesitation.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I see. What do you think makes her so sensitive? Was she experiencing
>>> some kind of trauma? Most adult LGBT+ people did in one way or another.
>>>
>>>
>>>> It so happens that I have done a lot of reading on the issue, for
>>>> totally different reasons, and I can confirm that incidents have occured in
>>>> settings where an individual who is male on all accounts (physical
>>>> features) enters a female space (restrooms, lockers) by self-identifying as
>>>> a woman and then proceeds to harass women using the space.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting. Do you mind sharing the references to that literature?
>>> Maybe this is worth a Wikipedia article?
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm not saying it's a frequent occurence, or that it will happen at
>>>> Wikimania (haha she actually liked the name of the annual event :) but it
>>>> is a valid concern that needs to be addressed, if the organisers want all
>>>> participants to feel safe and comfortable.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree for valid concerns to be addressed whenever possible. I would
>>> love to learn how this can be proven valid.
>>>
>>>
>>>> In the past these issues would go by "rule of thumb": you see a man in
>>>> the women's toilets, you report it. Now I'm confused: if you report it,
>>>> would you be offending the gender access policy for the restrooms?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I do not know. I am queer identifying and male presenting, though not
>>> always and in the most patriarchal normative ways. I would not go around
>>> reporting people from just being around, but that is my choice as I feel I
>>> have no traumas with gender representation, but ideological ones with
>>> rightwing Croatian extremist who obducted the HR Wikipedia for decade and
>>> were visiting Wikimanias and CEE Meetings without WMF's intervention for a
>>> decade.
>>>
>>> Self-identification can be tricky...
>>>>
>>>
>>> I am not sure what you mean. I think if people are not putting others in
>>> direct danger through action, usually I am OK with whatever they identify
>>> as long as it is legal (no Nazi symbols and similar..)
>>>
>>>
>>>> That said, I would be happy to participate in any discussions on the
>>>> topic, provided I can fit them into my hectic schedule (more hectic than I
>>>> care, which is one of the reasons I have not edited in quite a while...)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Indeed, maybe you should reconsider if you travel too much and edit too
>>> little and pass on the chance to others?
>>>
>>> Thanks again :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are most welcome!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 24 Jun 2023, 08:59 Željko Bla?e, <zblace@mi2.hr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Mina! I am not sure if we got to meet online, but I see you are
>>>>> Greek and involved in Outreach activities so I hope we will eventually even
>>>>> meet in person in the Balkans. Meanwhile I see you attended many Wikimanias
>>>>> and glad to see you have friendly friends who claim to be pro diversity and
>>>>> confortable with LGBTQ folx, so I am curious about the one you ask
>>>>> a question for. Is she not comfortable asking this question herself? Why do
>>>>> you think that is the case?
>>>>>
>>>>> Queering Wikipedia 2023 event organizing team is planning offline
>>>>> events and we would like to have them welcoming to all well intendended and
>>>>> tolerant folx. I am curious to know which exact incidents of harassment by
>>>>> 'males who identify as women' do you refer to? Also as you think it is a
>>>>> valid concern, I would love to know why you think this could happen in
>>>>> Wikimania? Because people are mostly Wikipedians and Wikimedians? (hope
>>>>> your friend did not misunderstand the wikiMANIA part of the brand)
>>>>>
>>>>> Unrelated to our context, do you and your friend think harassment
>>>>> happens because someone is not-cis?
>>>>> I would think it is mostly because those people are harassers and they
>>>>> are in bigger numbers as cis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for your answers in advance!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Z. Blace
>>>>>
>>>>> p.s. As a neo-nazi and right-wing militants attack victim (also known
>>>>> to be on their lists) I would love to raise concerns over tolerance for
>>>>> neo-nazi, right-wing and pro-gun militants in Wikimedia, but there was
>>>>> historically no or very little support for concrete work, so I would love
>>>>> for us to brainstorm at one point what makes sense to do, where and when.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:23?PM Mina Theofilatou <
>>>>> saintfevrier@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask, but on behalf of a
>>>>>> friend who is considering attending I'd like to know about the policy on
>>>>>> gendered restrooms in the conference venue. She is very comfortable with
>>>>>> the LGBTQ community and celebrates diversity, but is concerned about the
>>>>>> possibility of AMAB individuals who self-identify as women using the
>>>>>> women's restrooms. I have been to several Wikimanias and I don't recall any
>>>>>> related problems having occurred, but I do see that it is a vald concern as
>>>>>> there have been incidients of harassment by males who identify as women in
>>>>>> other public events.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks, best wishes for a safe and fruitful Wikimania :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, 20:22 Wikimania, <wikimania@wikimedia.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many of you are starting to plan your trips, and we’ve been
>>>>>>> receiving a lot of questions related to travel to Singapore: visas,
>>>>>>> vaccines, hotels, weather… We invite you to take a look at our Travel
>>>>>>> page on the Wikimania Wiki
>>>>>>> <https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2023:Travel>, with subpages
>>>>>>> for e-visas, attendee information, and accommodations. Feel free to leave a
>>>>>>> message on any relevant talk pages or reach out to us at
>>>>>>> wikimania@wikimedia.org <http://Wikimania@wikimedia.org> if
>>>>>>> anything is unclear or incomplete.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To highlight one point–many countries are visa-free for Singapore,
>>>>>>> but everyone needs to fill out a Singapore entry card before arrival. Also
>>>>>>> Singapore requires a yellow fever vaccine from many countries–please see if
>>>>>>> yours is on the list!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Butch Bustria*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On behalf of the Core Organizing Team
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>
>
> --
> Boodarwun
> Gnangarra
> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> koortaboodjar'
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> Hi Zeljko
>
> Your comment is uncalled for;
>
Hi Gnangarra. Firstly I did not make a comment but a question. It was also
towards someone who felt too busy to do edits *(which is fair, I do also),
but was regretting it publicly while doing a lot of work for a friend that
is interested to participate but also be very anxious over multiple things
that could be interpreted as transphobia.
> scholarships are distributed according to many varied criteria every
> application is independently reviewed by the team.
>
I did not open the question of criteria, but if you feel like you wanna
share more as a person leading this work I would encourage you to do it
publicly and systematically on Wikimania pages.
> Each application as scored is then compared across the region maximising
> the best candidates,
>
Interesting. So the list will have regional and national listings of
awardees?
Was it done that way before? Looking forward to see this info.
> each year its been the COT that have decided what criteria to focus on.
>
Interesting. I would think it was a mix of established norms and program
focus.
This year the criteria was collaboration through outreach, and developing
> new communities because everyone contributes in different ways.
>
Fascinating. I look forward to see people who do great work here and also
who are close runners up. I see myself primarily as Outreach person *(would
love to see Outreach wiki re-gain momentum) and really wanna know of people
that are even more enthusiastic and productive in this direction.
> One thing has always remained consistent that is we discuss the topic not
> the individual, please refrain from judging the individual in future
> comments.
>
I am sorry you felt this was judging *(usually you should be in power to do
so), as I mostly echoed self-stated claims and asking questions.
> Not everyone has the same freedoms or experiences at home and that leads
> to concerns when travelling.
>
Since I would have not been legal in Singapore last year this time I am
well aware of this, however this is based on legal regulations not
hypothetical probability.
> Trust & Safety people will be readily available during the event and at
> each activity, all volunteers will have T&S training and instructions on
> where to contact the T&S team
>
That is good to know.
Thank you for fast inputs, though I was not expecting or calling it for as
you phrased it, but I do look forward now to *(delayed) the report on
Wikimania wiki.
Best wishes!
On Mon, 26 Jun 2023 at 08:30, Handoko Suwono <handokos27@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Sorry if I am answering to the wrong thread about gender policing in
>> Singapore.
>>
>> - handoko
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 26, 2023, 00:55 Željko Bla?e <zblace@mi2.hr> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 8:27?AM Mina Theofilatou <saintfevrier@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi and thanks a lot for your email!
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are most welcome.
>>>
>>> You also raised some super interesting topics and gave me insights in
>>> your activities and Wikimania scholarship decisions I really appreciate.
>>>
>>> I hope you do not mind this email remaining public as I really feel it
>>> is an important topic at least as much as your friend does! I hope Butch
>>> does also.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> This friend is not involved in the Wikimedia movement, she would be a
>>>> "novice". I talked to her about Wikimania - she can self-fund herself
>>>> whereas sadly I can't - and she raised some concerns.
>>>>
>>>
>>> OK - but at least you got the scholarship so you are certain you will be
>>> there?
>>> I see you are not really contributing much to Wikimedia yourself also
>>> https://guc.toolforge.org/?by=date&user=Saintfevrier
>>> Interesting that you have been selected for a Scholarship anyway again
>>> and again...is this 4th Wikimania for you?
>>>
>>> I hope few people from our QW2023 team are there as one of 3 topics is
>>> Diversity. For now I did not hear anyone got a scholarship.
>>>
>>>
>>>> The others I was able to address (respect for privacy e.g. by wearing
>>>> the special tag that photos are not desirable) but this one had me
>>>> wondering. I told her she could sign up for the mailing lists but she
>>>> preferred the discussion went through me. She's quite sensitive with her
>>>> personal data, perhaps too much so, but of course I respect her hesitation.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I see. What do you think makes her so sensitive? Was she experiencing
>>> some kind of trauma? Most adult LGBT+ people did in one way or another.
>>>
>>>
>>>> It so happens that I have done a lot of reading on the issue, for
>>>> totally different reasons, and I can confirm that incidents have occured in
>>>> settings where an individual who is male on all accounts (physical
>>>> features) enters a female space (restrooms, lockers) by self-identifying as
>>>> a woman and then proceeds to harass women using the space.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Interesting. Do you mind sharing the references to that literature?
>>> Maybe this is worth a Wikipedia article?
>>>
>>>
>>>> I'm not saying it's a frequent occurence, or that it will happen at
>>>> Wikimania (haha she actually liked the name of the annual event :) but it
>>>> is a valid concern that needs to be addressed, if the organisers want all
>>>> participants to feel safe and comfortable.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree for valid concerns to be addressed whenever possible. I would
>>> love to learn how this can be proven valid.
>>>
>>>
>>>> In the past these issues would go by "rule of thumb": you see a man in
>>>> the women's toilets, you report it. Now I'm confused: if you report it,
>>>> would you be offending the gender access policy for the restrooms?
>>>>
>>>
>>> I do not know. I am queer identifying and male presenting, though not
>>> always and in the most patriarchal normative ways. I would not go around
>>> reporting people from just being around, but that is my choice as I feel I
>>> have no traumas with gender representation, but ideological ones with
>>> rightwing Croatian extremist who obducted the HR Wikipedia for decade and
>>> were visiting Wikimanias and CEE Meetings without WMF's intervention for a
>>> decade.
>>>
>>> Self-identification can be tricky...
>>>>
>>>
>>> I am not sure what you mean. I think if people are not putting others in
>>> direct danger through action, usually I am OK with whatever they identify
>>> as long as it is legal (no Nazi symbols and similar..)
>>>
>>>
>>>> That said, I would be happy to participate in any discussions on the
>>>> topic, provided I can fit them into my hectic schedule (more hectic than I
>>>> care, which is one of the reasons I have not edited in quite a while...)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Indeed, maybe you should reconsider if you travel too much and edit too
>>> little and pass on the chance to others?
>>>
>>> Thanks again :)
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are most welcome!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, 24 Jun 2023, 08:59 Željko Bla?e, <zblace@mi2.hr> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Mina! I am not sure if we got to meet online, but I see you are
>>>>> Greek and involved in Outreach activities so I hope we will eventually even
>>>>> meet in person in the Balkans. Meanwhile I see you attended many Wikimanias
>>>>> and glad to see you have friendly friends who claim to be pro diversity and
>>>>> confortable with LGBTQ folx, so I am curious about the one you ask
>>>>> a question for. Is she not comfortable asking this question herself? Why do
>>>>> you think that is the case?
>>>>>
>>>>> Queering Wikipedia 2023 event organizing team is planning offline
>>>>> events and we would like to have them welcoming to all well intendended and
>>>>> tolerant folx. I am curious to know which exact incidents of harassment by
>>>>> 'males who identify as women' do you refer to? Also as you think it is a
>>>>> valid concern, I would love to know why you think this could happen in
>>>>> Wikimania? Because people are mostly Wikipedians and Wikimedians? (hope
>>>>> your friend did not misunderstand the wikiMANIA part of the brand)
>>>>>
>>>>> Unrelated to our context, do you and your friend think harassment
>>>>> happens because someone is not-cis?
>>>>> I would think it is mostly because those people are harassers and they
>>>>> are in bigger numbers as cis.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for your answers in advance!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Best Z. Blace
>>>>>
>>>>> p.s. As a neo-nazi and right-wing militants attack victim (also known
>>>>> to be on their lists) I would love to raise concerns over tolerance for
>>>>> neo-nazi, right-wing and pro-gun militants in Wikimedia, but there was
>>>>> historically no or very little support for concrete work, so I would love
>>>>> for us to brainstorm at one point what makes sense to do, where and when.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023 at 8:23?PM Mina Theofilatou <
>>>>> saintfevrier@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask, but on behalf of a
>>>>>> friend who is considering attending I'd like to know about the policy on
>>>>>> gendered restrooms in the conference venue. She is very comfortable with
>>>>>> the LGBTQ community and celebrates diversity, but is concerned about the
>>>>>> possibility of AMAB individuals who self-identify as women using the
>>>>>> women's restrooms. I have been to several Wikimanias and I don't recall any
>>>>>> related problems having occurred, but I do see that it is a vald concern as
>>>>>> there have been incidients of harassment by males who identify as women in
>>>>>> other public events.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks, best wishes for a safe and fruitful Wikimania :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, 23 Jun 2023, 20:22 Wikimania, <wikimania@wikimedia.org>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi everyone,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Many of you are starting to plan your trips, and we’ve been
>>>>>>> receiving a lot of questions related to travel to Singapore: visas,
>>>>>>> vaccines, hotels, weather… We invite you to take a look at our Travel
>>>>>>> page on the Wikimania Wiki
>>>>>>> <https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2023:Travel>, with subpages
>>>>>>> for e-visas, attendee information, and accommodations. Feel free to leave a
>>>>>>> message on any relevant talk pages or reach out to us at
>>>>>>> wikimania@wikimedia.org <http://Wikimania@wikimedia.org> if
>>>>>>> anything is unclear or incomplete.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To highlight one point–many countries are visa-free for Singapore,
>>>>>>> but everyone needs to fill out a Singapore entry card before arrival. Also
>>>>>>> Singapore requires a yellow fever vaccine from many countries–please see if
>>>>>>> yours is on the list!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Butch Bustria*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On behalf of the Core Organizing Team
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>
>
> --
> Boodarwun
> Gnangarra
> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> koortaboodjar'
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>