Hi Lodewijk and Claudia and thanks for your replies.
Apologies if I used the wrong word in my original email: I agree with you
that the situations I am describing are not harassment per se, so I used
the word "discomfort" in the description of what I meant. Sincere apologies
to any list members who may feel offended, that was not my intention. I was
merely relaying the concerns of my friend, to the extent that they sounded
reasonable to me.
As for your further comments, which go so far as to name me "transphobic",
well that is one of the reasons I have distanced myself from the Wikimedia
Movement at this stage. I had distanced myself in the past too, after an
incident at Wikimania in 2016 which caused me severe discomfort (seems that
"harassment" is a sensitive word so I will avoid it, even though it was
acknowledged by T&S that it was indeed that. I got an apologetic email in
private, even though I had specifically requested that any communication be
public as was the incident. Z, if you're reading, I'm all for public
communication when the issues being discussed have been initiated in
public. To cut a long story short, I'm certain that the "Code of Conduct"
and "friendly space policy" guidelines would command that shouting at and
intimidating a fellow Wikipedian in a public space in the presence of many
Wikipedians and a T&S staff member is not acceptable. Noone stepped in to
stop the offender on the spot, not even the T&S employee: they just watched
while I was being shouted at. I made a complaint and after months of
investigation I managed to elicit a response from the "investigating" team.
I had no choice but to make it public so I uploaded a screenshot of the
email to Commons. I've linked to the screenshot below to help you
understand what I am talking about, and why I have little confidence in
Trust and Safety). I gradually gained back my confidence in the movement
and participated for another four years, i.e. 2017-2021, but when I
realised in 2022 that NPOV has gone totally out the window I'm through with
the Movement.
Back to the "transphobic" name-calling: it seems that anyone who expresses
the slightest concern about gender policies is easily branded as
transphobic. Some even go so far as to brand them as "alt right". Blaire
White, an extremely attractive and happy trans woman who is calling out the
pressure being exerted on minors to transition at ages when the brain is
still developing, is "transphobic". Scott Newgent is "transphobic". "What
is a Woman '' is a documentary for "transphobics". Johanna Olson-Kennedy,
who publicly addressed parents at a conference saying that "the good thing
about double mastectomies is that if the girl regrets at a later point in
her life, she can go ahead and get breasts" is a "hero". Why am I going
into such detail? Well because two of the participants in this list
encouraged me to write an article on Wikipedia about it. Have you any idea
how difficult it is to express so much as an inkling of "the other side of
the story" to a "contentious topic"? But isn't that what NPOV is supposed
to be about? Any attempts I have made to add this simple sentence in a
neutral manner with a reliable source to Johanna Olson-Kennedy's article
was met with rapid reverts and even a deletion discussion. The result was
"keep", but do you really think I am willing to expend more time and energy
on edit-warring over edits that *used to be* perfectly acceptable? Same for
my efforts on John Ioannidis's page: one of the most highly cited
researchers in the world is being blatantly slandered for his objections to
lockdowns during the Covid-19 crisis. By whom? By a certain globally
unimportant doctor who goes by the name of David Gorski. Ever heard of him?
Oh, but on Wikipedia his blog "Science Based Medicine" seems to be the
epitome of reliability in anything from Covid to transgender procedures on
underage girls.
I look at the history of articles. I also look at discussion pages, and
quite frankly these are currently the most effective ways of obtaining
reliable information on Wikipedia. So in one such session, when I looked at
the history of "John Ioannidis" and noticed that I was not the only one
trying to "inject" some NPOV into the Covid-19 paragraph of the article, I
checked the contribs of the other editor and saw that he had edited the
page "Irreversible Damage". That's how I learned about that book, which I
ordered and read, along with TRANS by Helen Joyce (a notable author with an
article on Wikipedia). Interestingly, Gorski was involved in this issue
too: one of the co-founders of SBM had written a positive review for
"Irreversible Damage: the Transgender Craze Seducing our Daughters", and
the review remained on the website for seven months. Then, after *seven
months* the article was taken down and a slandering ensued. Are we supposed
to believe that the science behind the book changed 180 degrees in seven
months?
Returning to the original issue, hmm. If everyone at Wikimania is so quick
to be offended by the slightest concern about gender policies, then perhaps
it's better if we """transphobic"""", """"conservative"""",
""""alt-right""" folks (lots of quotation marks) simply not attend? I will
relay this to my friend. It has been an enlightening discussion, thank you.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Resolution_for_report_of_harassment.png <
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On Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 1:39?AM effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Hi Mina,
>
> It can always be appreciated when people engage in respectful
> conversations about complex issues, and I can imagine this can be
> uncomfortable. I would not consider myself an expert on this issue in any
> way, and I can't speak for the organizers. The possible encounters that
> you're describing in your latest email feel of a different order than the
> "incidients (sic) of harassment by males who identify as women" that you
> referred to earlier. I think with those harassment incidents, the
> organizers have been rather clear: harassment is unacceptable in any gender
> combination, in any situation. I hope this is at least clear.
>
> What you're describing in your more recent email sound like practices that
> are a bit far-fetched (I cannot recall encountering these men performing
> such a "frequent and non-offensive action in men's restrooms" over my many
> years of using men's restrooms) but I can't be certain whether this is
> perhaps commonplace in other settings. I'm not sure how constructive it
> would be to exchange references to reliable sources supporting claims
> whether the behavior your friend fears, indeed is at all commonplace - but
> I would invite you to at least reflect yourself how common these incidents
> are compared to equally serious incidents that do not involve any
> gender-identification concerns, and whether you would feel those sources
> are solid enough that you would feel comfortable adding them to a Wikipedia
> article.
>
> I hope you can appreciate that the organizers create a trans-inclusive
> environment where people don't have to rely on other peoples' judgement in
> deciding whether their gender is "correct" in respect to how they look. I
> am also assuming that any attempt to spell out a detailed policy on what is
> acceptable in bathrooms will quickly be met with exceptions and edge cases
> that will be uncomfortable to some. The more important cornerstone to me is
> the general Friendly Space policy and code of conduct which applies to this
> event: https://wikimania.wikimedia.org/wiki/2023:Friendly_space_policy
> and https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Policy:Code_of_conduct_policy .
> These provide general principles that you could interpret in specific
> situations, rather than trying to legislate every possible hypothetical.
> Important elements that I would consider in this case: "Be respectful in
> all interactions and communications. Be aware of your impact and how your
> contribution (messages, discussion, comments) may be affecting people. "
> and "Treat other people with respect".
>
> Finally, I find it interesting that you choose to apologize for explicit
> language and perhaps mistaking the name of a department, but not for the
> possible feelings of rejection that your email could invoke with community
> members that might fall under your description of "AMAB individuals who
> self-identify as women". I hope you can imagine this is likely an
> uncomfortable conversation to them at least, and acknowledging this may not
> be enough, but is at least a small step towards this welcoming environment
> for everyone.
>
> Best,
> Lodewijk
>
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2023 at 2:57?PM Mina Theofilatou <saintfevrier@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> OK so I've finally found some time to sit at my computer and write a
>> proper reply. I will refrain from addressing Z.'s concerns on my
>> eligibility as a scholarship recipient (and all the related sarcasm) for
>> Wikimania 2023 as I have already replied to that on the renamed thread
>> "selection criteria".
>>
>> I read through the comments on gender policy in this thread and I'm
>> afraid that I will have to be somewhat explicit to get my point across.
>>
>> I am 56 years old (my friend interested in attending Wikimania23 is
>> several years older) and I have been to many conferences on four
>> continents, I'd say over a hundred (not all Wikimedia-related of course). I
>> am a cis-gender woman - apologies if I'm not using the right terms, until
>> recently "woman" or "female" was enough to describe what I am - and
>> naturally I have used dozens of women's restrooms (and locker rooms
>> occasionally). Not once have I experienced a disturbing incident involving
>> a man or male in a space designated for women because quite simply, I have
>> never seen a man - a male-presenting individual, that is - using the space
>> (except for the occasional "emergency", whereby the male uses the women's
>> toilet and apologises for doing so if he encounters a woman while
>> "relieving" himself. I've had to do the same on a few occasions in the
>> men's toilets). Such was the situation in the *pre*-self-identification
>> era. It is very possible that throughout the years I have encountered trans
>> women in the women's restrooms without even being aware of it: a
>> female-presenting trans individual in a space designated for women is
>> naturally, perfectly acceptable and no cause for concern.
>>
>> In the era of self-identification however, an individual who presents as
>> a man - with a beard etc. features of a male physique - can self-identify
>> as a woman (female) and proceed to use spaces designated for women. So, in
>> the hypothetical case that this man who identifies as a woman exits the
>> bathroom stall with his penis in his hand, shaking off the extra urine
>> (apologies for being explicit) - a frequent and non-offensive action in
>> men's restrooms, especially those with urinals - encounters a woman and the
>> woman is offended, would she be entitled to express her discomfort to Trust
>> and Safety? (apologies if the name of the dept has changed, that's the name
>> I remember). Or would she get a reply along the lines of "we understand
>> that you feel offended and that you experienced discomfort from the
>> encounter, but our gender policy is self-identification and this man
>> identifies as a woman so (s)he can use the women's restrooms and there's
>> nothing we can do about it".
>>
>> Same goes for AFAB individuals who are female-presenting but identify as
>> men. A man using the men's toilets may feel discomfort at the sight of e.g.
>> period blood and pads (again, apologies for the explicitness!) in a stall.
>>
>> I have tried to describe the issue as respectfully as possible. Again,
>> apologies for being explicit, it was inevitable. I do agree that
>> *generally* Wikipedians are respectful of others and would *generally* not
>> intentionally cause discomfort to others using gender-designated toilets -
>> or worse yet, go so far as to harass - but if norms of common decency were
>> self-evident to everyone, there would be no need for a Trust and Safety
>> dept in the first place.
>>
>> Best,
>> Mina
>>
>>
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> ?????
>> ????.www.avast.com
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>> <#m_-8386801440339898965_m_617256864847002357_m_-6370407639067422791_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>> On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 8:25?AM Željko Bla?e <zblace@mi2.hr> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear organizers - for the (self announced) transparency plan commitment
>>> of publishing list of scholarship grantees in May - it would be useful to
>>> do it at least in June as we are almost in July.
>>>
>>> It would also likely reduce the number of repeating questions.
>>>
>>> Best Z. Blace
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jun 24, 2023 at 7:15?AM Mohd Sayeed <sayeed8545@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Did u get the scholarship?
>>> >
>>> > On Sat, Jun 24, 2023, 12:05 AM Aryan Kumar Paswan <
>>> pradipguhilote@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> trip to singapore kindly share list of candidate and is it free of
>>> cost?
>>> >>
>>> >> On Fri, Jun 23, 2023, 22:52 Wikimania <wikimania@wikimedia.org>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Hi everyone,
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Many of you are starting to plan your trips, and we’ve been
>>> receiving a lot of questions related to travel to Singapore: visas,
>>> vaccines, hotels, weather… We invite you to take a look at our Travel page
>>> on the Wikimania Wiki, with subpages for e-visas, attendee information, and
>>> accommodations. Feel free to leave a message on any relevant talk pages or
>>> reach out to us at wikimania@wikimedia.org if anything is unclear or
>>> incomplete.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> To highlight one point–many countries are visa-free for Singapore,
>>> but everyone needs to fill out a Singapore entry card before arrival. Also
>>> Singapore requires a yellow fever vaccine from many countries–please see if
>>> yours is on the list!
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Best,
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Butch Bustria
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On behalf of the Core Organizing Team
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>> wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> >>
>>> >> _______________________________________________
>>> >> Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> >
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > Wikimania-l mailing list -- wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimania-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
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