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Let's move beyond who is and isn't qualified to comment on the policy. The
spirit of the Friendly Space Policy is that it should create a friendly
space for every participant, regardless of background.

Participants of this thread generally agree on what it means to feel safe.
There is relatively little debate about the expectations as written down in
the Friendly Space Policy.

What needs fixing is the consequences of violating the policy. The current
version of the policy (which has remained virtually unchanged since 2012)
has essentially one sentence:

> If a participant engages in harassing behavior, the conference organizers
> may take any action they deem appropriate, including warning the offender
> or expulsion from the conference.
>
( https://foundation.wikimedia.org/wiki/Friendly_space_policy )

The problem here is that if WMF or the organisers of an event needs to
enforce FSP and keeps secret about the entire incident, speculation and
one-sided perspectives can run amok in the community debate that ensues.

Lilli and Asaf have a good point: the specifics about a case of FSP
enforcement ought not to be the subject of public debate because that
creates additional stress on the participants. But for the enforcers to
keep utter silence has served the opposite purpose: the lack of an official
statement of enforcement has caused speculation to run wild.

It would be in the interest of both transparency and justice that the T&S
or the organisers make a short announcement whenever FSP is invoked. It
could be as anonymous as "We have had an incident where an attendee felt
uncomfortable in a discussion. Attendees are reminded to... [insert
appropriate behaviour]"

What is missing from the FSP process is this pre-emptive, limited release
of information from an act of enforcement. It can come with a reminder that
further discussion of the incident is discouraged to protect the privacy of
those involved.

Deryck

On 30 July 2018 at 09:56, Mina Theofilatou <saintfevrier@gmail.com> wrote:

> White female speaking: this is an important discussion for EVERYONE. I
> will refrain from replying often as I was upset by the incident in CT, and
> I have personal experience of an incident at Wikimania 2016, and thus I
> find it hard to not get carried away. So I will reiterate that TRANSPARENCY
> is what we need.
>
> (And in reply to WMF input to this thread: just because the Trust & Safety
> team bears the name does not mean that they unconditionally deserve our
> trust, nor that our safety is safeguarded. Names and titles abound in
> society. If content adhered to name there would be no need for dispute and
> conflict)
>
>

On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 3:56 PM Mina Theofilatou <saintfevrier@gmail.com>
wrote:

> White female speaking: this is an important discussion for EVERYONE. I
> will refrain from replying often as I was upset by the incident in CT, and
> I have personal experience of an incident at Wikimania 2016, and thus I
> find it hard to not get carried away. So I will reiterate that TRANSPARENCY
> is what we need.
>
> (And in reply to WMF input to this thread: just because the Trust & Safety
> team bears the name does not mean that they unconditionally deserve our
> trust, nor that our safety is safeguarded. Names and titles abound in
> society. If content adhered to name there would be no need for dispute and
> conflict)
>

I wholeheartedly agree with you - transparency is needed to ensure
accountability. One's title does not automatically bestow legitimacy to
your actions and decisions specially when they affect the lives and
reputations of others.

Also, one's racial or sexual identity should not be used to discount their
opinions. That's not the Wikimedia way.

Il giorno lun 30 lug 2018 alle ore 09:00 Philip Kopetzky
<philip.kopetzky@gmail.com> ha scritto:
> Guys, can you please take any discussion among you white males to Wikimedia-l if you still feel the need to discuss this amongst you? You can't force a public debate, especially wheb Asaf and Lilli have already stated the obvious.

Plonk.

--
Luca "Sannita" Martinelli
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utente:Sannita

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Il giorno lun 30 lug 2018 alle ore 12:57 Deryck Chan
<deryckchan@gmail.com> ha scritto:
> The problem here is that if WMF or the organisers of an event needs to enforce FSP and keeps secret about the entire incident, speculation and one-sided perspectives can run amok in the community debate that ensues.
>
> Lilli and Asaf have a good point: the specifics about a case of FSP enforcement ought not to be the subject of public debate because that creates additional stress on the participants. But for the enforcers to keep utter silence has served the opposite purpose: the lack of an official statement of enforcement has caused speculation to run wild.
>
> It would be in the interest of both transparency and justice that the T&S or the organisers make a short announcement whenever FSP is invoked. It could be as anonymous as "We have had an incident where an attendee felt uncomfortable in a discussion. Attendees are reminded to... [insert appropriate behaviour]"
>
> What is missing from the FSP process is this pre-emptive, limited release of information from an act of enforcement. It can come with a reminder that further discussion of the incident is discouraged to protect the privacy of those involved.

+2. Just to let you know, Wikimedia Italia has recently approved a
Code of Conduct,[1] roughly based on WMF's Friendly Space Policy, with
the difference that we explicitly stated that the person that gets
sanctioned in light of the Code of Conduct has the right to know why
the sanction has been taken.

I think *this* would be the one and only amendment that we should do
to the FSP. It doesn't have to be publicly announced by Katherine or
Jimbo to the whole assembly, but at least it'd be nice for the person
affected to know.

There's also another thing we should do, but this cannot be an
amendment to the FSP. I quote directly DaB. on this:

Il giorno lun 30 lug 2018 alle ore 02:24 DaB. <wp@dabpunkt.eu> ha scritto:
> I will respect the other people around me, I will try to
> not make them uncomfortable, and if there is a problem (for example:
> being too loud) I expect that somebody will talk to me, and I’m sure
> that there will be a solution.

I know that somebody would feel... weird in asking certain things, or
to respect certain things. I know what it's like, because I live in
constant fear of "doing the wrong thing", since I too have some minor
problems in approaching new people, and sometimes overthink too much
the weight of my words or actions.

Asking politely not to do certain things to me is perfect, but in a
way we should remember Wikimania or any other wiki event is NOT an
hostile environment - quite the opposite. In my experience, I found
wiki events the perfect environment to step up a bit my "social
skills", because I know this is *my* people I'm addressing, let's not
forget that.

L.

[1] https://wiki.wikimedia.it/wiki/Codice_di_condotta (Italian only)

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Probably the best thing that can happen to this thread now is that it
dies off, but I did just want to respond to this point by Pine,
because it's really important:

> 1. How, exactly, are white males unqualified to discuss the Friendly Space Policy because of their/our identity as white males?

Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish)
from whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the country they live
in have a different experience of life to everyone else.

Harassment, bullying and various other forms of discrimination are
much more frequent , even normal, for women, people from ethnic
minorities, LGBT people, and others who don't match that description.

So a conversation mainly conducted by white men about something like a
Friendly Space Policy is mainly being conducted by people who do not
experience the issue that the Friendly Space Policy is designed to
address. Or if they do experience it, it's an unusual thing that's
easy to laugh off.

Therefore this kind of conversation is much more likely to conclude
that there isn't a real problem, or the policy isn't working, or other
things are more important (e.g. being REALLY TRANSPARENT ABOUT
EVERYTHING), or whatever has happened in a particular case isn't an
issue. Which, predictably enough, is *exactly* what has happened in
this conversation.

Regards,

Chris

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https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Since I didn't went to wikimania and other people were already making the
points I wanted to make I tried to stay out of the conversation, but now I
need to answer something.

***Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish) from
whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the country they live in have a
different experience of life to everyone else.

Harassment, bullying and various other forms of discrimination are much
more frequent , even normal, for women, people from ethnic minorities, LGBT
people, and others who don't match that description.***

First of all, let's not forget that the incident that started all of this
happened to a white straight man from Europe, and so far the only people
who were "disqualified" from the conversation for their identity (and trus
suffered harassment for something they CAN'T Change) were white males. So
if we are going to town identity politics into this, I would say with the
basis of this conversation that they are MORE likely to suffer
discrimination not less.

Second, no. Every man (or woman) is an island. Each experience is
different. Telling someone that all white people thinks the same is like
saying <insert racist stereotype here> (I can give exemples but if I do
this thread will devolve into a discussion of the stereotype and we done
want that).

The best thing that come up of the suffragete and civil rights movements
are that we should listen to the ideas not the person who has them, and we
should uphold to that if equality is what we want.

PS. : Because I know people will say stuff about if, let's preempt all of
it: for those who don't know, I'm Latina and a woman, but that SHOULDN'T be
the reason why you listen to me.

On Jul 30, 2018 3:13 PM, "Chris Keating" <chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com> wrote:

Probably the best thing that can happen to this thread now is that it
dies off, but I did just want to respond to this point by Pine,
because it's really important:

> 1. How, exactly, are white males unqualified to discuss the Friendly
Space Policy because of their/our identity as white males?

Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish)
from whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the country they live
in have a different experience of life to everyone else.

Harassment, bullying and various other forms of discrimination are
much more frequent , even normal, for women, people from ethnic
minorities, LGBT people, and others who don't match that description.

So a conversation mainly conducted by white men about something like a
Friendly Space Policy is mainly being conducted by people who do not
experience the issue that the Friendly Space Policy is designed to
address. Or if they do experience it, it's an unusual thing that's
easy to laugh off.

Therefore this kind of conversation is much more likely to conclude
that there isn't a real problem, or the policy isn't working, or other
things are more important (e.g. being REALLY TRANSPARENT ABOUT
EVERYTHING), or whatever has happened in a particular case isn't an
issue. Which, predictably enough, is *exactly* what has happened in
this conversation.

Regards,

Chris

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

Hey all,

The Trust & Safety team appreciates and has carefully reviewed the input
provided here, in person during the event, and off-list. As the wider
Wikimedia movement and offline Wikimedia events grow and mature, so must
support for those events. That support takes many forms, but includes
friendly/safe space policies (FSP).

This is not a need surfaced by the Foundation or by any specific group, but
a request raised by countless event attendees and organizers. Attendees,
regardless of culture and background, want to be sure that there is some
baseline standard of behavior they can expect and that they are empowered
to set their own boundaries within reason - and that those will be
respected. Event organizers want help to set up a process like this and to
ensure that it is appropriately communicated and enforced.

This type of support is ongoing from both multiple Foundation departments
and many affiliates. Trust & Safety has, for example, been working on a
collection of trainings and visual materials for event organizers which
were recently published on Meta-Wiki[1] and used at Wikimania. The feedback
so far from event organizers and attendees has been good (and we welcome
more feedback on Meta!), but it is very clear that there is more that can
and should be done from all directions.

The event has surfaced a number of issues relating to event safety,
including how best to handle incidents when they are discussed publicly,
and clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust
& Safety issues (which may touch on FSP needs but are generally longer term
situations) which are often being dealt with simultaneously. The support
role we take on at large events such as Wikimania, which are attended by
hundreds of people and run by relatively small organizing teams, can blur
this line.

These and other items raised strike us as opportunities for a more
structured discussion of how to improve the existing policy and the
implementation expectations it sets.

Therefore, we will be facilitating a public review of our friendly space
policies early in Q3 (January-March 2019). The facilitated process will aim
to have a reviewed version of the FSP ready for final conversations and
refinements around the time of the Wikimedia Conference 2019 in March.

In addition, the Board asked the Community Engagement department in April
to produce a report on FSP violations reported to us, which will happen
twice-yearly. The first of these is due December 21 for violations during
the first half of our fiscal year, and so that will also will be available
for the consultation period and cover incidents tracked since July 1st in
appropriate form.

Again, we recognize that this is a important topic to get right, and we
hope that these steps will help to improve these processes within the
Wikimedia movement going forward.

James

1, https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Keeping_events_safe

*James Alexander*
Manager, Trust & Safety (Operations)
Wikimedia Foundation


On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 12:46 PM Béria Lima <berialima@gmail.com> wrote:

> Since I didn't went to wikimania and other people were already making the
> points I wanted to make I tried to stay out of the conversation, but now I
> need to answer something.
>
> ***Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish)
> from whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the country they live in
> have a different experience of life to everyone else.
>
> Harassment, bullying and various other forms of discrimination are much
> more frequent , even normal, for women, people from ethnic minorities, LGBT
> people, and others who don't match that description.***
>
> First of all, let's not forget that the incident that started all of this
> happened to a white straight man from Europe, and so far the only people
> who were "disqualified" from the conversation for their identity (and trus
> suffered harassment for something they CAN'T Change) were white males. So
> if we are going to town identity politics into this, I would say with the
> basis of this conversation that they are MORE likely to suffer
> discrimination not less.
>
> Second, no. Every man (or woman) is an island. Each experience is
> different. Telling someone that all white people thinks the same is like
> saying <insert racist stereotype here> (I can give exemples but if I do
> this thread will devolve into a discussion of the stereotype and we done
> want that).
>
> The best thing that come up of the suffragete and civil rights movements
> are that we should listen to the ideas not the person who has them, and we
> should uphold to that if equality is what we want.
>
> PS. : Because I know people will say stuff about if, let's preempt all of
> it: for those who don't know, I'm Latina and a woman, but that SHOULDN'T be
> the reason why you listen to me.
>
> On Jul 30, 2018 3:13 PM, "Chris Keating" <chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Probably the best thing that can happen to this thread now is that it
> dies off, but I did just want to respond to this point by Pine,
> because it's really important:
>
> > 1. How, exactly, are white males unqualified to discuss the Friendly
> Space Policy because of their/our identity as white males?
>
> Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish)
> from whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the country they live
> in have a different experience of life to everyone else.
>
> Harassment, bullying and various other forms of discrimination are
> much more frequent , even normal, for women, people from ethnic
> minorities, LGBT people, and others who don't match that description.
>
> So a conversation mainly conducted by white men about something like a
> Friendly Space Policy is mainly being conducted by people who do not
> experience the issue that the Friendly Space Policy is designed to
> address. Or if they do experience it, it's an unusual thing that's
> easy to laugh off.
>
> Therefore this kind of conversation is much more likely to conclude
> that there isn't a real problem, or the policy isn't working, or other
> things are more important (e.g. being REALLY TRANSPARENT ABOUT
> EVERYTHING), or whatever has happened in a particular case isn't an
> issue. Which, predictably enough, is *exactly* what has happened in
> this conversation.
>
> Regards,
>
> Chris
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly
spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.

A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded
like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently
do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly
touch not OK".

I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies
include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused
about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local
organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and
investigations.

Thanks for your attention to these issues.

Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )

> I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead
of the local organizers

I'm not sure if saying that the Foundation is in charge of safe space at
local events is accurate; I see it as a shared responsibility between the
Foundation and local organizers, and participants as well.

As an organizer of several events in the US space, having the Foundation's
involvement is valuable. As is clear from this thread, managing the safety
of an event isn't an easy task, and so many different situations can arise.
Organizers might not always fully have the needed experience and capacity
to deal with these issues, and even if they do, it can be helpful to have
the Foundation's personnel and prior experience.

There is also the importance of tracking incidents across spaces i.e. if an
incident occurs at one event, being able to ensure the incident does not
continue (or similar incidents do not occur) at future events is important
- and the Foundation is in a good position to be able to facilitate that.

Thanks,
Kevin Payravi
SuperHamster

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018, 2:08 PM Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly
> spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
>
> A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded
> like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently
> do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly
> touch not OK".
>
> I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies
> include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused
> about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local
> organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and
> investigations.
>
> Thanks for your attention to these issues.
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
--

Kevin Payravi
W: http://www.kevinpayravi.com
P: (330) 554 - 3397

I agree on the tracking issue. A few years ago I heard about a situation in
which a law enforcement agency was tracking complaints about its officers
and learned through that system that one of its officers had a pattern of
receiving "courtesy complaints", not bad enough to indicate that the
officer should be fired, but problematic enough in a pattern to suggest
that intervention from a supervisor was appropriate. The intervention that
was attempted was to pair that officer with a more experienced officer to
teach the younger officer about how to do his/her job with less friction.
After that intervention, the pattern of complaints stopped.


Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )

On Fri, Aug 3, 2018 at 7:32 PM, Kevin Payravi <kevinpayravi@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events
> instead of the local organizers
>
> I'm not sure if saying that the Foundation is in charge of safe space at
> local events is accurate; I see it as a shared responsibility between the
> Foundation and local organizers, and participants as well.
>
> As an organizer of several events in the US space, having the Foundation's
> involvement is valuable. As is clear from this thread, managing the safety
> of an event isn't an easy task, and so many different situations can arise.
> Organizers might not always fully have the needed experience and capacity
> to deal with these issues, and even if they do, it can be helpful to have
> the Foundation's personnel and prior experience.
>
> There is also the importance of tracking incidents across spaces i.e. if
> an incident occurs at one event, being able to ensure the incident does not
> continue (or similar incidents do not occur) at future events is important
> - and the Foundation is in a good position to be able to facilitate that.
>
> Thanks,
> Kevin Payravi
> SuperHamster
>
> On Fri, Aug 3, 2018, 2:08 PM Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly
>> spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
>>
>> A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded
>> like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently
>> do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly
>> touch not OK".
>>
>> I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies
>> include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused
>> about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local
>> organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and
>> investigations.
>>
>> Thanks for your attention to these issues.
>>
>> Pine
>> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
> --
>
> Kevin Payravi
> W: http://www.kevinpayravi.com
> P: (330) 554 - 3397
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

This is reasonable, and could save lots of dramah. I am going to assume that the default position is “not offended by friendly contact”, but whichever is the most common position should be default in both cases, and suggest that the indicator should be visible all round.

Cheers,

Peter



From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-bounces@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W
Sent: 03 August 2018 21:08
To: Wikimania general list (open subscription)
Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)



Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.



A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".



I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.



Thanks for your attention to these issues.




Pine
( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )






<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Image removed by sender.

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I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?

We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.

Kudpung

> On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
>
> A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
>
> I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
>
> Thanks for your attention to these issues.
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine> )
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the
number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at
the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of
the room and record the event.

On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:

> I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career -
> but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing
> ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk
> to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
>
> We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked all
> this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
>
> Kudpung
>
> On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly
> spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
>
> A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded
> like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently
> do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly
> touch not OK".
>
> I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies
> include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused
> about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local
> organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and
> investigations.
>
> Thanks for your attention to these issues.
>
> Pine
> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


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WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order
here
<https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
.

In which case, those people should have the decency to not present themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be embarrassed at being part of a benevolent movement such as Wikipedia - have they something disastrous to hide? In which case, perhaps they better not go to Wikimania at all, and if they are scholarship recipients, give their place over to someone else.

Kudpung

> On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.
>
> On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <cs@edubkk.org <mailto:cs@edubkk.org>> wrote:
> I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
>
> We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
>
> Kudpung
>
>> On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com <mailto:wiki.pine@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
>>
>> A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
>>
>> I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
>>
>> Thanks for your attention to these issues.
>>
>> Pine
>> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine> )
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>
>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page <https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page>
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra <http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra>
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com <http://gnangarra.redbubble.com/>
> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

This is going wildly of topic. But...
The decency?

I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who
don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not
very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank
participants.

Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i
am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction.

Lodewijk

On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:

> In which case, those people should have the decency to not present
> themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely
> to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear
> a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be embarrassed at
> being part of a benevolent movement such as Wikipedia - have they
> something disastrous to hide? In which case, perhaps they better not
> go to Wikimania at all, and if they are scholarship recipients, give
> their place over to someone else.
>
> Kudpung
>
> On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the
> number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at
> the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of
> the room and record the event.
>
> On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>
>> I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career -
>> but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing
>> ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk
>> to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
>>
>> We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked
>> all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
>>
>> Kudpung
>>
>> On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly
>> spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
>>
>> A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded
>> like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently
>> do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly
>> touch not OK".
>>
>> I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies
>> include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused
>> about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local
>> organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and
>> investigations.
>>
>> Thanks for your attention to these issues.
>>
>> Pine
>> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
> Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order
> here
> <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
> .
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

Indeed. Participants don't get the "no photo" lanyards because they are
embarrassed to be part of the movement. There are real and important
reasons participants desire not to be photographed. Some come from
countries where their participation on the movement is cause enough for
arrest. Others simply want to protect their identity online, whether it is
because they are a minor (minors do attend Wikimania), have cause to be
concerned for the privacy (prior harassment, stalking, etc.), or simply
value their privacy (which is valid enough reason by itself).

As a global and inclusive movement, we work hard to accommodate all
participants and this is all part of meeting that goal. Naturally these
participants should avoid getting in the view of session recordings and
whatnot, but being concious of who is photographed isn't a Herculean task
and is a small ask to make to ensure a more welcoming, privacy-conscious
event.

Kevin Payravi
SuperHamster @ en.wiki

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018, 1:38 AM effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com>
wrote:

> This is going wildly of topic. But...
> The decency?
>
> I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who
> don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not
> very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank
> participants.
>
> Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy,
> i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction.
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>
>> In which case, those people should have the decency to not present
>> themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely
>> to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear
>> a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be embarrassed at
>> being part of a benevolent movement such as Wikipedia - have they
>> something disastrous to hide? In which case, perhaps they better not
>> go to Wikimania at all, and if they are scholarship recipients, give
>> their place over to someone else.
>>
>> Kudpung
>>
>> On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the
>> number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at
>> the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of
>> the room and record the event.
>>
>> On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career -
>>> but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing
>>> ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk
>>> to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
>>>
>>> We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked
>>> all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
>>>
>>> Kudpung
>>>
>>> On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly
>>> spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
>>>
>>> A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded
>>> like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently
>>> do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly
>>> touch not OK".
>>>
>>> I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies
>>> include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused
>>> about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local
>>> organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and
>>> investigations.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your attention to these issues.
>>>
>>> Pine
>>> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> GN.
>> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
>> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
>> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
>> Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order
>> here
>> <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
>> .
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
--

Kevin Payravi
W: http://www.kevinpayravi.com
P: (330) 554 - 3397

The policy can not be expected to wholly and solely ensure the safety of
attendees, likewise stickers arent going to be readily identifiable in all
circumstances. Then ask yourself the question what if someone who wears a
dont photograph me lanyard is walking around photographing other people.
There are more solutions to ensure a person isn't in a shot than preventing
someone from taking the photograph.

Placing yourself in a position to prevent others participating is an issue,
I can understand and respect that not everyone comes from a society where
they have a benevolent government who encourages the dissemination of free
knowledge. A safe space policy has to include practical considerations as
part of that and we as end users need to also take a level of personal
responsibility to ensure that everyone can be part of any event, which is
why I raised the example.





On 6 August 2018 at 14:37, effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com>
wrote:

> This is going wildly of topic. But...
> The decency?
>
> I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who
> don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not
> very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank
> participants.
>
> Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy,
> i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction.
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>
>> In which case, those people should have the decency to not present
>> themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely
>> to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear
>> a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be embarrassed at
>> being part of a benevolent movement such as Wikipedia - have they
>> something disastrous to hide? In which case, perhaps they better not
>> go to Wikimania at all, and if they are scholarship recipients, give
>> their place over to someone else.
>>
>> Kudpung
>>
>> On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the
>> number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at
>> the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of
>> the room and record the event.
>>
>> On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>>
>>> I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career -
>>> but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing
>>> ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk
>>> to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
>>>
>>> We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked
>>> all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
>>>
>>> Kudpung
>>>
>>> On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly
>>> spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
>>>
>>> A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded
>>> like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently
>>> do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly
>>> touch not OK".
>>>
>>> I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies
>>> include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused
>>> about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local
>>> organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and
>>> investigations.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your attention to these issues.
>>>
>>> Pine
>>> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> GN.
>> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
>> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
>> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
>> Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order
>> here
>> <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
>> .
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>


--
GN.
Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order
here
<https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
.

Lodeweik,

I never mentioned nor hinted at second rank participants. If you think some are, that's your problem but don't misquote me. Thank you.

Kudpung

> On 6 Aug 2018, at 14:17, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The policy can not be expected to wholly and solely ensure the safety of attendees, likewise stickers arent going to be readily identifiable in all circumstances. Then ask yourself the question what if someone who wears a dont photograph me lanyard is walking around photographing other people. There are more solutions to ensure a person isn't in a shot than preventing someone from taking the photograph.
>
> Placing yourself in a position to prevent others participating is an issue, I can understand and respect that not everyone comes from a society where they have a benevolent government who encourages the dissemination of free knowledge. A safe space policy has to include practical considerations as part of that and we as end users need to also take a level of personal responsibility to ensure that everyone can be part of any event, which is why I raised the example.
>
>
>
>
>
> On 6 August 2018 at 14:37, effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com <mailto:effeietsanders@gmail.com>> wrote:
> This is going wildly of topic. But...
> The decency?
>
> I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants.
>
> Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction.
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs <cs@edubkk.org <mailto:cs@edubkk.org>> wrote:
> In which case, those people should have the decency to not present themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be embarrassed at being part of a benevolent movement such as Wikipedia - have they something disastrous to hide? In which case, perhaps they better not go to Wikimania at all, and if they are scholarship recipients, give their place over to someone else.
>
> Kudpung
>
>> On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com <mailto:gnangarra@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.
>>
>> On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <cs@edubkk.org <mailto:cs@edubkk.org>> wrote:
>> I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
>>
>> We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
>>
>> Kudpung
>>
>>> On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com <mailto:wiki.pine@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
>>>
>>> A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
>>>
>>> I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your attention to these issues.
>>>
>>> Pine
>>> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine> )
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> GN.
>> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page <https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page>
>> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra <http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra>
>> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com <http://gnangarra.redbubble.com/>
>> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>
>
>
>
> --
> GN.
> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page <https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page>
> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra <http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra>
> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com <http://gnangarra.redbubble.com/>
> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an event which of its very nature is much photographed, just need to be aware of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean task.

Kudpung

> On 6 Aug 2018, at 13:45, Kevin Payravi <kevinpayravi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Indeed. Participants don't get the "no photo" lanyards because they are embarrassed to be part of the movement. There are real and important reasons participants desire not to be photographed. Some come from countries where their participation on the movement is cause enough for arrest. Others simply want to protect their identity online, whether it is because they are a minor (minors do attend Wikimania), have cause to be concerned for the privacy (prior harassment, stalking, etc.), or simply value their privacy (which is valid enough reason by itself).
>
> As a global and inclusive movement, we work hard to accommodate all participants and this is all part of meeting that goal. Naturally these participants should avoid getting in the view of session recordings and whatnot, but being concious of who is photographed isn't a Herculean task and is a small ask to make to ensure a more welcoming, privacy-conscious event.
>
> Kevin Payravi
> SuperHamster @ en.wiki
>
> On Mon, Aug 6, 2018, 1:38 AM effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com <mailto:effeietsanders@gmail.com>> wrote:
> This is going wildly of topic. But...
> The decency?
>
> I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants.
>
> Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy, i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction.
>
> Lodewijk
>
> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs <cs@edubkk.org <mailto:cs@edubkk.org>> wrote:
> In which case, those people should have the decency to not present themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be embarrassed at being part of a benevolent movement such as Wikipedia - have they something disastrous to hide? In which case, perhaps they better not go to Wikimania at all, and if they are scholarship recipients, give their place over to someone else.
>
> Kudpung
>
>> On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com <mailto:gnangarra@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event.
>>
>> On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <cs@edubkk.org <mailto:cs@edubkk.org>> wrote:
>> I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
>>
>> We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
>>
>> Kudpung
>>
>>> On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com <mailto:wiki.pine@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
>>>
>>> A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or "friendly touch not OK".
>>>
>>> I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and investigations.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your attention to these issues.
>>>
>>> Pine
>>> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine> )
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> GN.
>> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page <https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page>
>> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra <http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra>
>> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com <http://gnangarra.redbubble.com/>
>> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), Never Again: Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8, UWAP, 2017.  Order here <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org <mailto:Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l <https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l>
> --
> Kevin Payravi
> W: http://www.kevinpayravi.com <http://www.kevinpayravi.com/>
> P: (330) 554 - 3397
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

+1
Regards,

*Ranjith Siji*
Smashing Web
www.smashingweb.info <http://smashingweb.info>

Chat Google Talk: ranjith.sajeev Skype: ranjith.sajeev


On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 1:04 PM CS <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:

> I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an
> event which of its very nature is much photographed, just need to be aware
> of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean
> task.
>
> Kudpung
>
> On 6 Aug 2018, at 13:45, Kevin Payravi <kevinpayravi@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Indeed. Participants don't get the "no photo" lanyards because they are
> embarrassed to be part of the movement. There are real and important
> reasons participants desire not to be photographed. Some come from
> countries where their participation on the movement is cause enough for
> arrest. Others simply want to protect their identity online, whether it is
> because they are a minor (minors do attend Wikimania), have cause to be
> concerned for the privacy (prior harassment, stalking, etc.), or simply
> value their privacy (which is valid enough reason by itself).
>
> As a global and inclusive movement, we work hard to accommodate all
> participants and this is all part of meeting that goal. Naturally these
> participants should avoid getting in the view of session recordings and
> whatnot, but being concious of who is photographed isn't a Herculean task
> and is a small ask to make to ensure a more welcoming, privacy-conscious
> event.
>
> Kevin Payravi
> SuperHamster @ en.wiki
>
> On Mon, Aug 6, 2018, 1:38 AM effe iets anders <effeietsanders@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> This is going wildly of topic. But...
>> The decency?
>>
>> I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who
>> don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not
>> very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank
>> participants.
>>
>> Especially in the context of a discussion around a friendly space policy,
>> i am of the opinion that this would be a dangerous direction.
>>
>> Lodewijk
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 5, 2018, 23:24 cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>>
>>> In which case, those people should have the decency to not present
>>> themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely
>>> to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear
>>> a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be embarrassed at
>>> being part of a benevolent movement such as Wikipedia - have they
>>> something disastrous to hide? In which case, perhaps they better not
>>> go to Wikimania at all, and if they are scholarship recipients, give
>>> their place over to someone else.
>>>
>>> Kudpung
>>>
>>> On 06, Aug2018, at 10:18, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the
>>> number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at
>>> the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of
>>> the room and record the event.
>>>
>>> On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career
>>>> - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing
>>>> ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk
>>>> to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?
>>>>
>>>> We’ll porbably never know the details of the incident that sparked
>>>> all this off but do I think it is getting out of proportion.
>>>>
>>>> Kudpung
>>>>
>>>> On 04, Aug2018, at 02:07, Pine W <wiki.pine@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between
>>>> friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea.
>>>>
>>>> A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which
>>>> sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we
>>>> currently do for "Photos OK" or "Photos not OK", for "friendly touch OK" or
>>>> "friendly touch not OK".
>>>>
>>>> I would also like to see the upcoming review of the relevant policies
>>>> include discussions of who should be responsible for them (I'm confused
>>>> about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local
>>>> organizers) and the level of transparency regarding reports and
>>>> investigations.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your attention to these issues.
>>>>
>>>> Pine
>>>> ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine )
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> GN.
>>> Noongarpedia: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/nys/Main_Page
>>> WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
>>> Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
>>> Out now: A.Gaynor, P. Newman and P. Jennings (eds.), *Never Again:
>>> Reflections on Environmental Responsibility after Roe 8*, UWAP, 2017. Order
>>> here
>>> <https://uwap.uwa.edu.au/products/never-again-reflections-on-environmental-responsibility-after-roe-8>
>>> .
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimania-l mailing list
>> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>>
> --
>
> Kevin Payravi
> W: http://www.kevinpayravi.com
> P: (330) 554 - 3397
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 2:34 PM CS <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:

> I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an
> event which of its very nature is much photographed, just need to be aware
> of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean
> task.
>

I agree with this. Then there is this interpretation (which is new to me)
that individuals who expressly consent to be photographed in groups at
Wikimedia events can also expect their photos *not* be published online on
either Commons or social media (without explaining their position to
photographers). I don't think this ever used to be the case. Wikimania,
by its very nature, is a social event and there was always a presumption of
consent in the absence of express prohibition.

I do think now that there is a need for FSP to explicate norms for
photography and publishing.

Le lun. 6 août 2018 à 09:34, CS <cs@edubkk.org> a écrit :

> I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an
> event which of its very nature is much photographed, just need to be aware
> of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean
> task.
>

The goal of Wikimania is not to produce pictures of Wikimania, but to
attend to conferences and share experiences, build new projects with
others, etc.
And Even with the OK photo lanyard, it does not mean people like to be
photographed in ridiculous situation or when eating food, etc.

So this is not an herculean task, but it's up to the photographer to get it
right, not the other way around.

--
Pierre-Selim

Concerning photographs, it would be easier if they were generally limited
to some kind of "official photographers" & group photographs during those
events. I'm new to Wikimedia events, and only attended two, last WMCON in
Berlin and Big Fat Brussels. In Brussels we were asked to not photograph
the participants unless it was explicitly allowed (such as in group
photographs), which I found quite reasonable - and, frankly, it was a
relief.

As for touching, I'm a bit shy myself, and feel somewhat uneasy when
someone hugs or touches me, but I would never ask someone to not do what
generally is a genuine proof of affection & friendship, let alone denounce
that person. When it's too close that it becomes embarassing, one can just
ask the other to stay a bit farther. We just need to ask, to communicate -
it doesn't seem that hard, that difficult. And doesn't seem at all the kind
of thing that would grant a report to the Safety team, and even less some
kind of reaction from them.

All the best,

Paulo

2018-08-06 10:21 GMT+01:00 Pierre-Selim <pierre-selim@huard.info>:

> Le lun. 6 août 2018 à 09:34, CS <cs@edubkk.org> a écrit :
>
>> I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an
>> event which of its very nature is much photographed, just need to be aware
>> of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean
>> task.
>>
>
> The goal of Wikimania is not to produce pictures of Wikimania, but to
> attend to conferences and share experiences, build new projects with
> others, etc.
> And Even with the OK photo lanyard, it does not mean people like to be
> photographed in ridiculous situation or when eating food, etc.
>
> So this is not an herculean task, but it's up to the photographer to get
> it right, not the other way around.
>
> --
> Pierre-Selim
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>
>

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 4:11 AM cs <cs@edubkk.org> wrote:
>
> I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already?

No, they don't. This proposal would make Wikimania the first
conference to outsource basic social awareness to a set of coloured
spots stuck to the front of badges.

I can't say it would be a positive change, not least because people
would start blaming harrassment on people not wearing the right
coloured badge.

Chris

_______________________________________________
Wikimania-l mailing list
Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l

In the world we have a big problem of violence against women, but also
towards to the LGBT+ community and I think these problems are a serious
problem we all can recognise. To create clarity we have a Friendly Space
Policy what clearly defines what is unacceptable, something that we all can
recognise.


But what should happen when somebody feels uncomfortable, while there is no
violation of the Friendly Space Policy?

And in addition, if that somebody does not indicate to feel uncomfortable,
so the other person has no way to know someone is uncomfortable. And thus
can't fix/help to remove the uncomfortable part of the situation.



If then actions are taken towards the person who apparently created an
uncomfortable feeling without knowing that, who also got no indication as
such to fix, then this raises to me a lot of questions.
What then happens is that the Trust and Safety team creates for that person
an unsafe environment.
And not just for this person, but to anyone who has interaction with
another person.

And the more interactions you have with people, the higher is the risk that
there is someone feeling uncomfortable.
Especially those people, maybe you have seen them, that walk around to help
others, answer questions, etc, (there are various of them at Wikimania),
especially those people are at high risk.

If *then* the Trust and Safety team is taking action, something goes wrong,
then an event is no longer safe.




> What we can do as a community is debate *principles*, i.e. the policy
itself.

I think it is not the policy that is the actual subject for debate, but it
is about how the policy is used, or otherwise the way how we deal as
movement with this kind of situations.
What are the general principles according how the trust and Safety team
acts. Those can be open and should not be a black box.

A second thing (or maybe the same) that is something we can talk about is
what do we do as movement when somebody feels uncomfortable (as described)?
How can we help this person with this feeling to be comfortable again?


Romaine



2018-07-29 20:57 GMT+02:00 Andy Mabbett <andy@pigsonthewing.org.uk>:

> On 29 July 2018 at 18:27, Chris Keating <chriskeatingwiki@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> > Lots of opinions from people going "well this person didn't harass
> > me" or "I don't know the specifics but maybe it's just cultural
> > differences"
>
> I'm one of the people who commented, early on, on that original
> thread; and I don't believe that describes my post.
>
> I did note that there was prima face evidence that a community member
> who had a disability (my word for it; not theirs) appeared to have
> been discriminated against, at least in part, due to the effects of
> that disability. I would expect or "safe space" policy to ensure that
> this did not happen.
>
> I have not seen a single response, to date, that has addressed this
> point; either specifically or in general.
>
> --
> Andy Mabbett
> @pigsonthewing
> http://pigsonthewing.org.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimania-l mailing list
> Wikimania-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimania-l
>