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Ray Saintonge wrote:
> Many languages in Europe do not have countries to match the language:
> Galician, Catalan, Frisian, Sardinian ... And what should happen with
> the Roma? Other languages are spoken in several countries. Wikipedia
> is based on languages, not on nations or the evil of nationalism or
> patriotism.
>
> I don't like the artificial languages any more than you do. Except for
> Esperanto, there is nobody that really speaks these languages on a
> regular basis, and nobody to be the audience for the language games that
> their supporters like to play. It would be very difficult to get rid of
> them, as the experience with a totally ridiculous language like Klingon
> has shown.
>
> I have no problem with Montenegrin independence, though I have sometimes
> wondered why it was so much slower to break away from Serbia than the
> other repblics of Yugoslavia. Many of us from outside the Balkans find
> the persistent chauvinism of the entire area (not just Yugoslavia)
> thoroughly mystifying, and I don't think that Wikipedia should be
> encouraging these separate language in the face of contrary linguistic
> evidence.
>
> Ec
>
What linguistic evidence? I am asking you all this time to give such
evidence. What are the rules on WMF about this?
Is it the evidence that 200.000 people talk Montenegrin language?

And I am not talking about countries I am talking about nation marks
(Country don't always mean nation). I dont see that we follow each other
up on this. You seems talk about something else.

Darko Bulatovic
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On 11/30/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:

> What linguistic evidence? I am asking you all this time to give such
> evidence. What are the rules on WMF about this?

No formal rules that I know of but evidence that there is a consensus
of linguists that Montenegrin is a language rather than a dialect
would but a good start.

> Is it the evidence that 200.000 people talk Montenegrin language?
>

No that is how many claim to speak Montenegrin. It is likely that over
300 million speak US english. Doesn't make it a language seperate from
British english.

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Sabine Cretella wrote:
>> I don't understand you very well here. Many language (mostly
>> European)are having nation marks (English, French, German, Russian,
>> Albanina, Greek, Italian, ....)
>>
> You forgot that German is spoken in Germany, Austria, Switzerland and
> Italy all three happily living together on one wiki - and of course:
> there are some differences among these four versions of German, but
> nevertheless they are ONE language.
> French is spoken in France, Canada, Switzerland etc. and they work on
> one Wikipedia.
> Dutch is spoken in the Netherlands, Belgium and France and they work on
> one Wikipedia.
> Italian is spoken in Italy and Switzerland and they work on one Wikipedia.
> English is spoken in Great Britain, USA, Australia, New Zealand etc. and
> they all work on one Wikipedia.
>
That is very specific case, As in Switzerland live Italians, Germans and
Franks. In Montenegrin case in Montenegro lives 45% Montenegrin s, 35%
Serbs, Albanians, Bosnnjaks,...
On other cases those countries was colonies of mayor European empires.
> Of course there are slight differences in the usage of certain
> terminology, in writing etc., but they all happily work together. There
> is the possibility, even now, to handle more than one language on a Wiki
> and the smaller the communities of a certain language or variation or
> dialect the more sense it makes to co-operate in one wiki for the simple
> fact that the project has a better chance to survive - anyway the day is
> not all too far that it will become even easier to hav various scripts
> and dialects live on one wiki.
>
> A Wiki project is about co-operation and not separation. You want to be
> different: well, then show it and co-operate instead of allowing for
> political separation. We all have one thing in common: we are human
> beings and as such we have something called intelligence that
> distinguishes us from other living forms ans as such we have the power
> to decide ... the wiki way is co-operation and trying to understand each
> other and not separation.
>
Sabine,
When I come here my idea was to collaborate and cooperate with others.
If that was not the case we could make our own wikipedia. But that is
not the case.
I agree with you about humans but I will add: Human also have
stereotypes, mis understanding, limited knowledge about specific topics
and dont judge always the same in same cases.

Thank you for joining discussion,
Darko Bulatovic


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geni wrote:
> On 11/30/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
>
>
>> What linguistic evidence? I am asking you all this time to give such
>> evidence. What are the rules on WMF about this?
>>
>
> No formal rules that I know of but evidence that there is a consensus
> of linguists that Montenegrin is a language rather than a dialect
> would but a good start.
>
>
What linguists?

Do you have some quotes about this? I am ready to talk about this.

Regards,
Darko Bulatovic
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Christophe Millet wrote:
>> But there are many articles on wikipedia that promote nationalism with
>> support of some facts or invented ones. Montenegrin related articles are
>> good examples, please see discussion on some of them and you will see
>> what happen there. If you stop Montenegrin wikipedia I don't see how
>> that will help in this effort? I think that will just do opposite. On
>> other languages cold be the same ( As I know it is on some Balkan
>> versions).
>>
>
>
> I thought that mixing different cultures in the same wiki was a way to
> reach NPOV...
> If there are a Montenegrin wp, and a Serbian wp, will we not have
> a Montenegrin version of the history and a Serbian version of the history?
> I don't see how this is NPOV...
>
> Or maybe I didn't understand well (quite possible), then please explain.
>
> Regards,
> Kip.
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>
>
Yes,

Montenegro is multicultural and multi etnical society. We will get
Montenegrin history, Islam history in montenegro, we will get ilirs
history in montenegro, we will get helens history in montenegro, ...
Many diversity in Montenegro give rich heritage and it will be very
exiting to work on it.

Darko Bulatovic

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On 11/30/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
> That is very specific case, As in Switzerland live Italians, Germans and
> Franks.

No. Switzerland has proved itself to be independent of these rather
firmly for quite a number of centuries.

Switzerland also has a few Romansh speakers.

> Sabine,
> When I come here my idea was to collaborate and cooperate with others.
> If that was not the case we could make our own wikipedia. But that is
> not the case.
> I agree with you about humans but I will add: Human also have
> stereotypes, mis understanding, limited knowledge about specific topics
> and dont judge always the same in same cases.
>

However there is no need for a separate wikipedia unless it can be
shown there is a language barrier.

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On 11/30/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
> What linguists?

Hopefuly ones that are experts in the languages of the Balkan Peninsula
--
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geni wrote:
> On 11/30/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
>
>> That is very specific case, As in Switzerland live Italians, Germans and
>> Franks.
>>
>
> No. Switzerland has proved itself to be independent of these rather
> firmly for quite a number of centuries.
>
> Switzerland also has a few Romansh speakers.
>
>
>> Sabine,
>> When I come here my idea was to collaborate and cooperate with others.
>> If that was not the case we could make our own wikipedia. But that is
>> not the case.
>> I agree with you about humans but I will add: Human also have
>> stereotypes, mis understanding, limited knowledge about specific topics
>> and dont judge always the same in same cases.
>>
>>
>
> However there is no need for a separate wikipedia unless it can be
> shown there is a language barrier.
>
>
Will we ask for it or talk here if we don't thing there is language
barrier? This started to look like philosophic question. We already get
proposal from Serbian community, also we wait from Croatian community
and Bosnian community. But for now there is no consensus between them.
If there ever be one we will participate.


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geni wrote:
> On 11/30/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
>
>> What linguists?
>>
>
> Hopefuly ones that are experts in the languages of the Balkan Peninsula
>

Do you have some reference on witch you build up your opinion? Please
share with us.

Darko Bulatovic
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On 11/30/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:

> Will we ask for it or talk here if we don't thing there is language
> barrier?

It is possible. You are a new country. National pride of some sort is
sure to exist. Perhaps you feel that along with the flag, the seat at
the UN and the votes in the Eurovision song contest your dialect
should be declared a distinct language.

--
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Quoting geni <geniice@gmail.com>:


> However there is no need for a separate wikipedia unless it can be
> shown there is a language barrier.

a reason could be the conservation of a slowly dying language.



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On 11/30/06, elvis@chan.de <elvis@chan.de> wrote:
> Quoting geni <geniice@gmail.com>:
>
>
> > However there is no need for a separate wikipedia unless it can be
> > shown there is a language barrier.
>
> a reason could be the conservation of a slowly dying language.
>

And the benifit of doing that would be?

No matter In this case we are not talkina about a dying language. We
are tlaking about something that may or may not be a language.

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Ray Saintonge wrote:
> Governments also need style manuals for official publications, but these
> do not have the force of law for non-governmental operations. Our
> schools never make reference to any kind of official spelling or grammar
> when teaching children. English, more than any other language is based
> on history, custom and usage. There is such a thing as poor language
> skills for native speakers, but one feature that makes it very difficult
> for the health of other languages is the easy acceptance by English of
> ways of speaking drawn from other languages.
>
>
>
Ray,

Here is not same situation, In all publications or education there must
be followed rules thats are called "Pravopis" and they are in some part
very strict. As this is not my field and I have trouble to talk about
it on English, I hope you will understand at least some of this. Our
language is very different from English as there are many rules (because
many native English speakers have problem to learn our language). One
example there are "Rodovi" which change construction of sentence, which
in English is absent. This is based on ( Him, She, it).

Darko Bulatovic




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geni wrote:
> On 11/30/06, elvis@chan.de <elvis@chan.de> wrote:
>
>> Quoting geni <geniice@gmail.com>:
>>
>>
>>
>>> However there is no need for a separate wikipedia unless it can be
>>> shown there is a language barrier.
>>>
>> a reason could be the conservation of a slowly dying language.
>>
>>
>
> And the benifit of doing that would be?
>

What you are saying ???? People dig ashes to find something new, and you
dont care? Wow
> No matter In this case we are not talkina about a dying language. We
> are tlaking about something that may or may not be a language.
>
>
I have asked you,and I will ask you again, do you even know anything
about this topic?

Thank you,

Darko
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Darko Bulatovic a écrit :
> Sabine Cretella wrote:
>
>>>I don't understand you very well here. Many language (mostly
>>>European)are having nation marks (English, French, German, Russian,
>>>Albanina, Greek, Italian, ....)
>>>
>>You forgot that German is spoken in Germany, Austria, Switzerland and
>>Italy all three happily living together on one wiki - and of course:
>>there are some differences among these four versions of German, but
>>nevertheless they are ONE language.
>>French is spoken in France, Canada, Switzerland etc. and they work on
>>one Wikipedia.
>>Dutch is spoken in the Netherlands, Belgium and France and they work on
>>one Wikipedia.
>>Italian is spoken in Italy and Switzerland and they work on one Wikipedia.
>>English is spoken in Great Britain, USA, Australia, New Zealand etc. and
>>they all work on one Wikipedia.
>
> That is very specific case, As in Switzerland live Italians, Germans and
> Franks. In Montenegrin case in Montenegro lives 45% Montenegrin s, 35%
> Serbs, Albanians, Bosnnjaks,...
> On other cases those countries was colonies of mayor European empires.

There is nothing specific about that. The examples given by Sabin e is
perfectly valid. The problem is that you don't want to admit it.

> Thank you for joining discussion,
> Darko Bulatovic

Regards,

Yann
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Hi,

Darko Bulatovic a écrit :
>
> Will we ask for it or talk here if we don't thing there is language
> barrier? This started to look like philosophic question. We already get
> proposal from Serbian community, also we wait from Croatian community
> and Bosnian community. But for now there is no consensus between them.
> If there ever be one we will participate.

If you really mean to participate in a common Wikipedia for all variant
of the Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian, then do it!
There is http://sh.wikipedia.org/ which is just meant for that.

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbocroatian_language

Regards,

Yann
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Yann Forget wrote:
> Darko Bulatovic a écrit :
>
>>
>> That is very specific case, As in Switzerland live Italians, Germans and
>> Franks. In Montenegrin case in Montenegro lives 45% Montenegrin s, 35%
>> Serbs, Albanians, Bosnnjaks,...
>> On other cases those countries was colonies of mayor European empires.
>>
>
> There is nothing specific about that. The examples given by Sabin e is
> perfectly valid. The problem is that you don't want to admit it.
>
>
>> Thank you for joining discussion,
>> Darko Bulatovic
>>
>
> Regards,
>
> Yann
>
>
Yann,

How much do you know about this? You are angry at me Yann? That I called
you to not make assumptions? Your assumptions affect half of million
people Yann.I hope that you relise that, as I don't really understand
you. Sabin did at least showed her point of view here, and you just
make comments without any argument.

Regards,
Darko Bulatovic

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On 12/1/06, Darko Bulatovic <mail@itam.ws> wrote:
> What you are saying ???? People dig ashes to find something new, and you
> dont care? Wow

Languages don't need to be liveing in order extract information from
them. Late Egyptian has been dead for over 2000 years. We can still
extract informatrion from it. However this is irrelivant since if
Montenegrin is indeed a seperate language there is no evidence it is
dying.


> I have asked you,and I will ask you again, do you even know anything
> about this topic?

Enough to ask questions. In this case the relivant question is what is
the general view of the experts in the field?


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Hi,

Darko Bulatovic a écrit :
> Yann Forget wrote:
>
>>Darko Bulatovic a écrit :
>>
>>>That is very specific case, As in Switzerland live Italians, Germans and
>>>Franks. In Montenegrin case in Montenegro lives 45% Montenegrin s, 35%
>>>Serbs, Albanians, Bosnnjaks,...
>>>On other cases those countries was colonies of mayor European empires.
>>
>>There is nothing specific about that. The examples given by Sabin e is
>>perfectly valid. The problem is that you don't want to admit it.
>>
>>>Thank you for joining discussion,
>>>Darko Bulatovic
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Yann
>
> Yann,
>
> How much do you know about this? You are angry at me Yann? That I called

I am not angry.

> you to not make assumptions? Your assumptions affect half of million
> people Yann. I hope that you relise that, as I don't really understand

Do you realize that what you ask affects the whole of Wikimedia?

> you. Sabin did at least showed her point of view here, and you just
> make comments without any argument.

Why do I need to argument? Did you listen to arguments made by others?

> Regards,
> Darko Bulatovic

As Geni said: "Enough to ask questions. In this case the relivant
question is what is the general view of the experts in the field?"

Regards,

Yann
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Darko Bulatovic wrote:

>Yann Forget wrote:
>
>
>>Darko Bulatovic a écrit :
>>
>>
>>>That is very specific case, As in Switzerland live Italians, Germans and
>>>Franks. In Montenegrin case in Montenegro lives 45% Montenegrin s, 35%
>>>Serbs, Albanians, Bosnnjaks,...
>>>On other cases those countries was colonies of mayor European empires.
>>>
>>>
>>There is nothing specific about that. The examples given by Sabine is
>>perfectly valid. The problem is that you don't want to admit it.
>>
>>
>Yann,
>
>How much do you know about this? You are angry at me Yann? That I called
>you to not make assumptions? Your assumptions affect half of million
>people Yann.I hope that you relise that, as I don't really understand
>you. Sabine did at least showed her point of view here, and you just
>make comments without any argument.
>
I don't think that Yann was expressing anger. His suggestion to use the
sh.wikipedia was a constructive one. Of Montenegrin, Serbian, Albanian,
and Bosnian mentioned above most people outside of the Balkans would see
only Albanian as different enough from the others to merit being called
a language. To say that this issue will affect half a million people
(by which I assume you mean the entire population of Montenegro) is
overly dramatic; most of those people will just carry on normally with
their lives no matter how the arguments here are resolved.

The five of us who have so far participated with you in this discussion
are from five different countries (none of which is Serbia), and five
different native languages. I have seen three of the others regularly
participate in discussions about language, so I would pay attentiont
their opinions even when I don't agree with them.

If you really want to do things for the Montenegrin language you could
do better than argue in favour of the correlation between nation and
language. Begin by giving references to existing Montenegrin dictionary
and grammar books, showing Montenegrin words in Wiktionary and how they
differ from other Serbo-Croatian languages, show us the important
differences in Montenegrin grammar, or.add important out-of-copyright
books by Montenegrin authors to Wikisource.

Ec

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Ray Saintonge wrote:
> I don't think that Yann was expressing anger. His suggestion to use the
> sh.wikipedia was a constructive one. Of Montenegrin, Serbian, Albanian,
> and Bosnian mentioned above most people outside of the Balkans would see
> only Albanian as different enough from the others to merit being called
> a language. To say that this issue will affect half a million people
> (by which I assume you mean the entire population of Montenegro) is
> overly dramatic; most of those people will just carry on normally with
> their lives no matter how the arguments here are resolved.
>
> The five of us who have so far participated with you in this discussion
> are from five different countries (none of which is Serbia), and five
> different native languages. I have seen three of the others regularly
> participate in discussions about language, so I would pay attentiont
> their opinions even when I don't agree with them.
>
> If you really want to do things for the Montenegrin language you could
> do better than argue in favour of the correlation between nation and
> language. Begin by giving references to existing Montenegrin dictionary
> and grammar books, showing Montenegrin words in Wiktionary and how they
> differ from other Serbo-Croatian languages, show us the important
> differences in Montenegrin grammar, or.add important out-of-copyright
> books by Montenegrin authors to Wikisource.
>
> Ec
>
>
Ray,

Thank you for showing you interest in this, Yan just showed to me( and
some of others) that they don't have a clue what they talk about. And
that producing a anger that is not provoked by anything from my side.
The committee has made decision that is on hand to Serbian
clero-nacional-shovinism that I think you all know about in close
history of Sloboan Miloshevic. I have asked people here to explain their
opinion (and still waiting committee to give official one).

I think that my statement is not over dramatic, as you will see when
this come to media.
In which way some people act as judges but dont even bother to take time
to gather evidence from both sides. I have called many times but no one
event tried to go deeper in this.

Some people here just comment (and after dont wish to elaborate)they
dont give any constructive element to this discussion.

your idea here is not possible from many reasons.
First:
- Montenegrin language exists. Allmost 200.000 people stated that they
talk Montenegrin language and 650.000 are affected by it.
- Montenegrin is part of South Slavic languages that includes:
Bulgarian, Slovenian, Macedonian, Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian.

Montenegrin has specifics that differ from others(closer group Serbian,
Croatian, Bosnian) in many was. Some time from 10-30% and from
Slovenian. Macedonian, and Bulgarian much more.

I see I got commented on serbian mailing list:
????????? ?? ??????? ????? ???
"??????????????". ???? ? ?? ??????
??????, ? ?? ?????? ???? ?????????
?????? ????????. ????? ????... ???
????? ?????? ????, ? ?????? ?? ????
???? ???? ? ????????. ?????? ?? ????
???????. ??????? ?? ???????
??????????? ????? ???? ??? ????????
?? ??????, ?????? ??? ? ???????? ??
???, ?????????? ???????..., ? ????? ??
????? ?? ????? ??????, ??? ? ?????....
????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ???????
?? ????????? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?????
???????? ??????????? ????????... ?
??????????? ?????? ???????
?????????????. ????? ?? ?? ?????,
??????? ?'? ????????. :)
translation:
Djukanovic is spiritual leader of that "new-montenegrins". In same way
he talk shit, and that he is not even see what stupidity he talks. Good
for them... when they have that kind of leader, and to majority is
worst than in Albania. Kosovo comes to them as America. Shiptars (It
could be called as mocking name to Albanian people) seeling them
humanitartian help which they get on Kosovo, they even buy a medicaments
from them, smuggled of course. And here they are dicky that they have a
nation, and now language....
Fuck nation which people waiting Bus from Shiptaria (Albania-Kosovo
maybe - mocking), that driver will smuggle them aspirins. In meantime
that Dog become multimillionaire . They are stupid like Penis or maybe
better like VIBRATOR

That kind of fascism you are supporting? You call us to participate with
this kind of people? You are insane. It is quite obvious who is
political motivated here.

Regards,
Darko Bulatovic




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Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
> If you really want to do things for the Montenegrin language you could
> do better than argue in favour of the correlation between nation and
> language. Begin by giving references to existing Montenegrin dictionary
> and grammar books, showing Montenegrin words in Wiktionary and how they
> differ from other Serbo-Croatian languages, show us the important
> differences in Montenegrin grammar, or.add important out-of-copyright
> books by Montenegrin authors to Wikisource.
>
> Ec
>
>
>
But I didnt make this point, people from here made that point. I have
just tied to say that it is not the point.
You want reference:

- Try to read work of Petar Petrovic Njegosh II. You will find on other
part of the book dictionary for people which talk Serbian language. As
they don't understand much of it.
- All state letters and philosophic, poems, etc that come from
Montenegro in past of 100+ years contains such specific. Modern one also
has same specific that use Montenegrin language.

In current draft of state constitution is stated that official language
of Montenegro is Montenegrin, also there are some Books from mr.
Nikcevic that have this topic, but I cant find reference on Internet
that will show this.

Darko Bulatovic

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Darko Bulatovic wrote:

>I see I got commented on serbian mailing list:
>?????????
>
...

>??????? ?'? ????????. :)
>
>translation:
>Djukanovic is spiritual leader of that "new-montenegrins". In same way
>he talk shit, and that he is not even see what stupidity he talks. Good
>for them... when they have that kind of leader, and to majority is
>worst than in Albania. Kosovo comes to them as America. Shiptars (It
>could be called as mocking name to Albanian people) seeling them
>humanitartian help which they get on Kosovo, they even buy a medicaments
>from them, smuggled of course. And here they are dicky that they have a
>nation, and now language....
>Fuck nation which people waiting Bus from Shiptaria (Albania-Kosovo
>maybe - mocking), that driver will smuggle them aspirins. In meantime
>that Dog become multimillionaire . They are stupid like Penis or maybe
>better like VIBRATOR
>
>That kind of fascism you are supporting? You call us to participate with
>this kind of people? You are insane. It is quite obvious who is
>political motivated here.
>
I have no reason to question your translation.

A person who carried on in this way in an English language project would
very soon be criticized severely, and some would demand some kind of
punishment.

To me this quotation by itself is a strong argument against the separate
projects. As much as this attitude may thrive in a closed community of
like-minded people, I'm sure that it would not be well received in a
combined serbo-croatian project. It is clearly not a Neutral Point of
View. It is arguably more difficult to maintain neutrality in a small
wiki. It is more likely to pursue the neutrality of the minority than a
broader neutrality because most outsiders simply don't understand the
language, and if the few that do have their own separate wiki there is
no incentive to do so. A combined project that would force these people
to get along and work at solving their differences would benefit NPOV.

As Wikipedia grows this can have severe long-term implications about the
application of NPOV.

Ec

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Hi,

Darko Bulatovic a écrit :
>
> Ray,
>
> Thank you for showing you interest in this, Yan just showed to me( and
> some of others) that they don't have a clue what they talk about. And

I know very well what I am talking about.
Stop talking about others when you don't know them.
And please stop NOW your political motivated propaganda.

> Regards,
> Darko Bulatovic

Yann
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Yann Forget wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Darko Bulatovic a écrit :
>
>> Ray,
>>
>> Thank you for showing you interest in this, Yan just showed to me( and
>> some of others) that they don't have a clue what they talk about. And
>>
>
> I know very well what I am talking about.
> *Stop talking about others when you don't know them.*
>
You are one that do that Yann. I don't have reason to doubt that you
know what you are talking about and why.
> And please stop NOW your political motivated propaganda.
>
What you are saying is childish. It is interesting that you don't find
any respect to prove your claims to this community. I am calling you
hole this time in this thread to just do that, but you go on same road
of false accusations and assumptions. And you find this OK?

Yann, I don't think that this is level of discussion on which I wish to
participate.

Regards,
Darko Bulatovic
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