Mailing List Archive

Ray Saintonge wrote:
> I don't think that it helps the transparency of the process when someone
> like Jimbo begins by supporting a bid before the bidding has seriously
> started. It's the kind of prejudicial comment that tells everyone else
> to give up before they even try. It casts doubt on whether he believes
> that the community has enough maturity to make good choices.

Hmm, I seem to have been very misunderstood. I said "It isn't up to me,
nor should it be" (or words to that effect, you'd have to look it up).
I really meant that.

The committee did a great job this year, and next year's committee will
do a great job too.

I know that my opinions are often viewed as carrying a lot of weight,
and for that I sincerely apologize. I just like Italy. :) It was just
a personal comment.

--Jimbo

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This could be a good idea.

To go in Taipei or in Boston or in Sidney is very expensive for a
wikipedian, and most of all wikipedians are students with a little
bit of money.

To have a Wikimania in each continent could be good to offer an
opportunity to all wikipedians without claims.

Ilario


----Messaggio originale----
Da: alphasigmax@gmail.com
Data: 29.09.06 2.07
A: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"<foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
Oggetto: Re: [Foundation-l] Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

>
> Yes... we have small local meetups, and the international
conference.
> Something in between would be good.
>

Wikimania Europe, Asia, America perhaps?


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Perhaps you do not realize this, but you are listed as
being on the jury. This is probably what led to such
confusion regarding you role in the selection. This
is the only mention I could find on the composition of
the jury. In all fairness I stopped looking when I
found this assuming it was correct.

"Original jury comprises of the members of the Board :
Angela, Anthere, Jimmy Wales, Michael Davis, Tim
Shell, to which will be added the new Board member
elected in September to replace Angela, and also the
core organisation team of Wikimania 2006: Phoebe
Ayers, Austin Hair, Samuel Klein and Delphine Ménard.
Other members are: Andrew Lih. Other members may be
added later."
[http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2007/Bids#Shortlist]


Birgitte SB

--- Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia.com> wrote:

> Ray Saintonge wrote:
> > I don't think that it helps the transparency of
> the process when someone
> > like Jimbo begins by supporting a bid before the
> bidding has seriously
> > started. It's the kind of prejudicial comment
> that tells everyone else
> > to give up before they even try. It casts doubt
> on whether he believes
> > that the community has enough maturity to make
> good choices.
>
> Hmm, I seem to have been very misunderstood. I said
> "It isn't up to me,
> nor should it be" (or words to that effect, you'd
> have to look it up).
> I really meant that.
>
> The committee did a great job this year, and next
> year's committee will
> do a great job too.
>
> I know that my opinions are often viewed as carrying
> a lot of weight,
> and for that I sincerely apologize. I just like
> Italy. :) It was just
> a personal comment.
>
> --Jimbo
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


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On 01/10/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> --- David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:

> > As I said, a competitive process will be inherently
> > damaging. If
> > there's really no other way than a competitive
> > process, then fine, but
> > don't be surprised when it has the side effects it's
> > *obviously* going
> > to have.

> I intially disagreed with you, david, but now I am
> coming around to your way of thinking. Everyone is a
> volunteer doing there best in this. I do not doubt
> that this is true. But I am beginning to think a
> competitive process requires a higher level of
> professionalism than can be provided by volunteers
> doing their best.


Unfortunately, I can't see another way than a competitive bid either,
so the people saying this are right too. How annoying ...


> Not that I think people should continue fighting over
> the Wikimania 2007 selection. But we should not stop
> talking about this process. We should start talking
> about how future Wikimania's should be selected.
> Perhaps the first task is to really define the
> relationship between Wikimania and Wikimedia. Is it
> dealt with through a commitee? Are there any Board
> Resolutions that pertain to Wikimania? What exactly
> is the connection?


That is a very interesting and deep question - i.e., what are the
assumptions each person (or team or project) have made so far?


- d.
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Birgitte SB wrote:

>I intially disagreed with you, david, but now I am
>coming around to your way of thinking. Everyone is a
>volunteer doing there best in this. I do not doubt
>that this is true. But I am beginning to think a
>competitive process requires a higher level of
>professionalism than can be provided by volunteers
>doing their best.
>
I can understand that some people are disappointed by not winning the
bid, but now that a decision is made supporting the winning bid serves
well in maintaining general harmony.

This is not the kind of decision that can be effectively made by votes
at broad volunteer level. There are too many factors that cannot be
properly communicated even if a heroic effort is made by the committee
to do so. Much can depend on technical considerations about the
facility that can only be answered by very direct and specific questions
from the committee. It would probably be a good idea to leave time for
feedback from the general membership about the shortlisted bids; perhaps
a month would do. This would give time for concerns of various sorts to
be raised. I don't think that this was possible for 2005-7 because of
the tighter time line for making the decision. It should be possible
for 2008 and later since we do want a longer planning cycle.

I support the principle of rotating Wikimania around three broad
geographical regions (Europe/Africa, The Americas, Asia/Australia), but
this should not create a situation where we must accept a city's clearly
inferior bid just because it is the only one from its region.

>Not that I think people should continue fighting over
>the Wikimania 2007 selection. But we should not stop
>talking about this process. We should start talking
>about how future Wikimania's should be selected.
>Perhaps the first task is to really define the
>relationship between Wikimania and Wikimedia. Is it
>dealt with through a commitee? Are there any Board
>Resolutions that pertain to Wikimania? What exactly
>is the connection?
>
I think that the Foundation's connection with Wikimania should be closer
than its links with any of the other sister projects. Wikimania's
objectives have more to do with marshalling physical assets than trying
to build something on-line. There is still the task of putting together
a programme for the conference, but I don't see that as a big logistical
problem. As long as the programmers are respectful of the diversity of
Wikimedia projects serious difficulties are unlikely.

Perhaps a separate, but closely linked non-profit corporation needs to
be set up to deal with Wikimania. It could be the one responsible for
any possible liabilities that could arise from operating real-world
rather than virtual events.

Ec

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One thing we could do is have the bidding process, then determine which one
would be 2008, 2009, etc, or if a certain place will be chosen at all. That
way, all effort is utilized.

On 10/1/06, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 01/10/06, Birgitte SB <birgitte_sb@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > --- David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > As I said, a competitive process will be inherently
> > > damaging. If
> > > there's really no other way than a competitive
> > > process, then fine, but
> > > don't be surprised when it has the side effects it's
> > > *obviously* going
> > > to have.
>
> > I intially disagreed with you, david, but now I am
> > coming around to your way of thinking. Everyone is a
> > volunteer doing there best in this. I do not doubt
> > that this is true. But I am beginning to think a
> > competitive process requires a higher level of
> > professionalism than can be provided by volunteers
> > doing their best.
>
>
> Unfortunately, I can't see another way than a competitive bid either,
> so the people saying this are right too. How annoying ...
>
>
> > Not that I think people should continue fighting over
> > the Wikimania 2007 selection. But we should not stop
> > talking about this process. We should start talking
> > about how future Wikimania's should be selected.
> > Perhaps the first task is to really define the
> > relationship between Wikimania and Wikimedia. Is it
> > dealt with through a commitee? Are there any Board
> > Resolutions that pertain to Wikimania? What exactly
> > is the connection?
>
>
> That is a very interesting and deep question - i.e., what are the
> assumptions each person (or team or project) have made so far?
>
>
> - d.
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Sorry, since it was the only logo I saw on the two pages, I incorrectly presumed that Gattonero was referring to it.

He was speaking about the similarity between the two headers with "Wikimania2007Torino" and "Wikimania2007Taipei".

Roberto (Snowdog)


> I wish to let you know that the logo is the official logo of Wikimania,
> which you can find in
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Wikimania_(blue-red).svg
>
> H.T.
>



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IMHO it could be very important to have you in Italy in summer 2007.

Ilario
~~~~~~~~~~
President of Wikimedia CH
Member of Wikimedia Italy
~~~~~~~~~~

----Messaggio originale----
Da: jwales@wikia.com
Data: 01.10.06 19.33
A: <wikimedia@alisonwheeler.com>, "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing
List"<foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
Oggetto: Re: [Foundation-l] Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Alison Wheeler wrote:
> Brad's support for Torino during the selection period, and
Jimbo's recent
> comment here are, to my mind, very out of place and could easily
suggest
> to many that there is pressure being brought on them.

Allow me to clarify that I did not vote in this years selection
process,
and have no intention of voting in next years. My comment about
Torino
was based on two things: the closeness of the competition this
year, and
my own love of visiting Italy in the summer, which I don't get to
do
very often. It was intended as a personal remark only... to cheer
up
the Italians. :)

--Jimbo

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I strong support three different Wikimania: one for Europe/Africa,
one for Asia/Australia, one form America.

The Asia has got many problems and one Wikimania cannot solve them,
but also the core of Wikipedians are in the Europe, but also the
Digital Divide is a big problem in Africa, etc.

Any choose will be always a "long long" discussion.

Ilario


----Messaggio originale----
Da: saintonge@telus.net
Data: 02.10.06 2.19
A: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"<foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
Oggetto: Re: [Foundation-l] Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

Birgitte SB wrote:


I support the principle of rotating Wikimania around three broad
geographical regions (Europe/Africa, The Americas, Asia/Australia),
but
this should not create a situation where we must accept a city's
clearly
inferior bid just because it is the only one from its region.


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On 10/2/06, valdelli@bluemail.ch <valdelli@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> To go in Taipei or in Boston or in Sidney is very expensive for a
> wikipedian, and most of all wikipedians are students with a little
> bit of money.

"For a Wikipedian"? I presume you meant to say "for a Wikipedian in
Europe". There are plenty of contributors in other parts of the world,
including an emergent community across Asia for whom Taipei is a
highly accessible location.

It's expensive both ways to travel long distances, remember, so
choosing location based on population is a surefire way to guarantee
that huge numbers of Wikimedians will never attend a Wikimania.

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain@gmail.com
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I reply as the previous year... it depends.

How many persons must make a long journey? How many persons are
lucky?

I said that the previous year about the choose of Boston: how many
participants has had Wikimania 2006?

To partecipate is important but not mandatory.

Ilario



----Messaggio originale----
Da: stephen.bain@gmail.com
Data: 02.10.06 11.10
A: <valdelli@bluemail.ch>, "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"
<foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
Oggetto: Re: [Foundation-l] Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007

On 10/2/06, valdelli@bluemail.ch <valdelli@bluemail.ch> wrote:
>
> To go in Taipei or in Boston or in Sidney is very expensive for
a
> wikipedian, and most of all wikipedians are students with a
little
> bit of money.

"For a Wikipedian"? I presume you meant to say "for a Wikipedian
in
Europe". There are plenty of contributors in other parts of the
world,
including an emergent community across Asia for whom Taipei is a
highly accessible location.

It's expensive both ways to travel long distances, remember, so
choosing location based on population is a surefire way to
guarantee
that huge numbers of Wikimedians will never attend a Wikimania.

--
Stephen Bain
stephen.bain@gmail.com



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I think it is evry good to orginize local events. As well national (as
the polish did, the Dutch and the chinese this year at least) but
maybe also per continent. But that has to be *besides* the Wikimania,
as it is another type of event imho. It would be nice to have one
event in august, one in november, december (national?) and one in
march (continental?). Then you spread it, and people can go where-ever
they want. It is of course a question whether there will be enough
people attending then. As people can only spend their money once...

effe

2006/10/2, valdelli@bluemail.ch <valdelli@bluemail.ch>:
> I strong support three different Wikimania: one for Europe/Africa,
> one for Asia/Australia, one form America.
>
> The Asia has got many problems and one Wikimania cannot solve them,
> but also the core of Wikipedians are in the Europe, but also the
> Digital Divide is a big problem in Africa, etc.
>
> Any choose will be always a "long long" discussion.
>
> Ilario
>
>
> ----Messaggio originale----
> Da: saintonge@telus.net
> Data: 02.10.06 2.19
> A: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"<foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
> Oggetto: Re: [Foundation-l] Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007
>
> Birgitte SB wrote:
>
>
> I support the principle of rotating Wikimania around three broad
> geographical regions (Europe/Africa, The Americas, Asia/Australia),
> but
> this should not create a situation where we must accept a city's
> clearly
> inferior bid just because it is the only one from its region.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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valdelli@bluemail.ch wrote:

> To go in Taipei or in Boston or in Sidney is very expensive for
> a wikipedian, and most of all wikipedians are students with a
> little bit of money.
>
> To have a Wikimania in each continent could be good to offer an
> opportunity to all wikipedians without claims.

On the other hand, all wikipedians have an Internet connection and
many wikipedians have *good* Internet connections through their
universities. The conclusion must be that *online participation*
should be facilitated as far as possible. Two-way video
participation in workshops, video broadcast of presentations,
direct chat, still photos, transcriptions and written summaries,
translations, etc. Some don't have enough bandwidth to use
streaming video, but for those who can, it is more affordable than
visiting in person.

In fact, we don't have to wait until Wikimania. Regular local
meetings of wikipedians could be shared over the Internet. Has
anybody tried this already? I don't mean simple IRC sessions, but
something like a video link between two local Wikipedia meet-ups?


--
Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se
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Jimmy Wales wrote:

>Ray Saintonge wrote:
>
>
>>I don't think that it helps the transparency of the process when someone
>>like Jimbo begins by supporting a bid before the bidding has seriously
>>started. It's the kind of prejudicial comment that tells everyone else
>>to give up before they even try. It casts doubt on whether he believes
>>that the community has enough maturity to make good choices.
>>
>>
>Hmm, I seem to have been very misunderstood. I said "It isn't up to me,
>nor should it be" (or words to that effect, you'd have to look it up).
>I really meant that.
>
>The committee did a great job this year, and next year's committee will
>do a great job too.
>
>I know that my opinions are often viewed as carrying a lot of weight,
>and for that I sincerely apologize. I just like Italy. :) It was just
>a personal comment.
>
That's a big problem with theology. Churches would be a lot poorer if
they didn't consistently misunderstand their God.

In the long run it's not the disclaimer that will be remembered, but the
core comment in that message. I clearly prefer to assume good faith,
and I recognize that you must often walk on eggshells. Unfortunately
the weight of your opinions goes well beyond what you anticipate. I
don't know what the proper solution would be. Being completely silent
does not seem like a good option either.

Ec

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valdelli@bluemail.ch wrote:

>I strong support three different Wikimania: one for Europe/Africa,
>one for Asia/Australia, one form America.
>
>The Asia has got many problems and one Wikimania cannot solve them,
>but also the core of Wikipedians are in the Europe, but also the
>Digital Divide is a big problem in Africa, etc.
>
>Any choose will be always a "long long" discussion.
>
>
I have no objections to these regional meetups in addition to one big
worldwide event. Having people meet internationally is very good for
getting to know each other. There are several countries in Asia which
could handle the conference. Australia too has several capable cities,
as does South America.

As for Africa and the digital divide it could be a humbling experience
for those of us from developed countries to go to a conference there.
We could have first hand experience of the difficulties in bringing
knowledge to the people of that continent.

Ec

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+++ Ray Saintonge [03/10/06 01:25 -0700]:
>valdelli@bluemail.ch wrote:
>
>>I strong support three different Wikimania: one for Europe/Africa,
>>one for Asia/Australia, one form America.
>>
>>The Asia has got many problems and one Wikimania cannot solve them,
>>but also the core of Wikipedians are in the Europe, but also the
>>Digital Divide is a big problem in Africa, etc.
>>
>As for Africa and the digital divide it could be a humbling experience
>for those of us from developed countries to go to a conference there.
>We could have first hand experience of the difficulties in bringing
>knowledge to the people of that continent.

A very real digital divide exists; but your last statement could come
across as patronizing. More interesting than 'bringing information to'
is receiving information from less technologically developed regions...
countering 'systemic bias' in a way that is only recently imaginable.

SJ
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valdelli@bluemail.ch wrote:
> I strong support three different Wikimania: one for Europe/Africa,
> one for Asia/Australia, one form America.
>
> The Asia has got many problems and one Wikimania cannot solve them,
> but also the core of Wikipedians are in the Europe, but also the
> Digital Divide is a big problem in Africa, etc.
>
> Any choose will be always a "long long" discussion.
>
> Ilario
>
>
> ----Messaggio originale----
> Da: saintonge@telus.net
> Data: 02.10.06 2.19
> A: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"<foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
> Oggetto: Re: [Foundation-l] Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007
>
> Birgitte SB wrote:
>
>
> I support the principle of rotating Wikimania around three broad
> geographical regions (Europe/Africa, The Americas, Asia/Australia),
> but
> this should not create a situation where we must accept a city's
> clearly
> inferior bid just because it is the only one from its region.
Hoi,
Apparently Wikimania is only for Wikipedians or people with an interest
in Wiktionary, Wikinews or Wikibooks have more money to spend. Truly
Wikimania is NOT about Wikipedia. Both Frankfurt and Boston welcomed the
other projects as warmly.. I am sure they will be as warmly welcomed in
Taipei.
Thanks,
GerardM
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Sorry but I cannot enjoy more Eurocentric languages. You may say as
well the first two Wikimanias are only for a few richer Asians.

Regards,

roc
--

2006/10/5, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>:
> valdelli@bluemail.ch wrote:
> > I strong support three different Wikimania: one for Europe/Africa,
> > one for Asia/Australia, one form America.
> >
> > The Asia has got many problems and one Wikimania cannot solve them,
> > but also the core of Wikipedians are in the Europe, but also the
> > Digital Divide is a big problem in Africa, etc.
> >
> > Any choose will be always a "long long" discussion.
> >
> > Ilario
> >
> >
> > ----Messaggio originale----
> > Da: saintonge@telus.net
> > Data: 02.10.06 2.19
> > A: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"<foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
> > Oggetto: Re: [Foundation-l] Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007
> >
> > Birgitte SB wrote:
> >
> >
> > I support the principle of rotating Wikimania around three broad
> > geographical regions (Europe/Africa, The Americas, Asia/Australia),
> > but
> > this should not create a situation where we must accept a city's
> > clearly
> > inferior bid just because it is the only one from its region.
> Hoi,
> Apparently Wikimania is only for Wikipedians or people with an interest
> in Wiktionary, Wikinews or Wikibooks have more money to spend. Truly
> Wikimania is NOT about Wikipedia. Both Frankfurt and Boston welcomed the
> other projects as warmly.. I am sure they will be as warmly welcomed in
> Taipei.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
> _______________________________________________
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I don't know what happened with snipping of this
message but I did not write the text in support of
rotating Wikimania. I don't have a firm opinion on
that issue.

Birgitte SB

--- Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:

> valdelli@bluemail.ch wrote:
> > I strong support three different Wikimania: one
> for Europe/Africa,
> > one for Asia/Australia, one form America.
> >
> > The Asia has got many problems and one Wikimania
> cannot solve them,
> > but also the core of Wikipedians are in the
> Europe, but also the
> > Digital Divide is a big problem in Africa, etc.
> >
> > Any choose will be always a "long long"
> discussion.
> >
> > Ilario
> >
> >
> > ----Messaggio originale----
> > Da: saintonge@telus.net
> > Data: 02.10.06 2.19
> > A: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing
> List"<foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
> > Oggetto: Re: [Foundation-l] Taipei chosen to host
> Wikimania 2007
> >
> > Birgitte SB wrote:
> >
> >
> > I support the principle of rotating Wikimania
> around three broad
> > geographical regions (Europe/Africa, The Americas,
> Asia/Australia),
> > but
> > this should not create a situation where we must
> accept a city's
> > clearly
> > inferior bid just because it is the only one from
> its region.
> Hoi,
> Apparently Wikimania is only for Wikipedians or
> people with an interest
> in Wiktionary, Wikinews or Wikibooks have more money
> to spend. Truly
> Wikimania is NOT about Wikipedia. Both Frankfurt and
> Boston welcomed the
> other projects as warmly.. I am sure they will be
> as warmly welcomed in
> Taipei.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>
http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


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I probably have misunderstood GerardM, and I would like to retract my
previous message and offer my apologies.

Indeed, as an international conference for an international
organization and its global projects, attending Wikimania in person
would always be expensive for some of us.

Best regards,

roc
--

2006/10/5, roc <sdnyroc@gmail.com>:
> Sorry but I cannot enjoy more Eurocentric languages. You may say as
> well the first two Wikimanias are only for a few richer Asians.
>
> Regards,
>
> roc
> --
>
> 2006/10/5, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>:
> > valdelli@bluemail.ch wrote:
> > > I strong support three different Wikimania: one for Europe/Africa,
> > > one for Asia/Australia, one form America.
> > >
> > > The Asia has got many problems and one Wikimania cannot solve them,
> > > but also the core of Wikipedians are in the Europe, but also the
> > > Digital Divide is a big problem in Africa, etc.
> > >
> > > Any choose will be always a "long long" discussion.
> > >
> > > Ilario
> > >
> > >
> > > ----Messaggio originale----
> > > Da: saintonge@telus.net
> > > Data: 02.10.06 2.19
> > > A: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List"<foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
> > > Oggetto: Re: [Foundation-l] Taipei chosen to host Wikimania 2007
> > >
> > > Birgitte SB wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > I support the principle of rotating Wikimania around three broad
> > > geographical regions (Europe/Africa, The Americas, Asia/Australia),
> > > but
> > > this should not create a situation where we must accept a city's
> > > clearly
> > > inferior bid just because it is the only one from its region.
> > Hoi,
> > Apparently Wikimania is only for Wikipedians or people with an interest
> > in Wiktionary, Wikinews or Wikibooks have more money to spend. Truly
> > Wikimania is NOT about Wikipedia. Both Frankfurt and Boston welcomed the
> > other projects as warmly.. I am sure they will be as warmly welcomed in
> > Taipei.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
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