Mailing List Archive

On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 23:28:31 -0700 (PDT), Daniel Mayer
<maveric149@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Could the notice be put back so that most cached pages will have it by the time
> we get Slashdotted? Or was there a decision made somewhere that it should be
> taken down?

The notice was only supposed to be up whilst we were on Slashdot.
Currently we are not there, so the notice was taken down following
some complaints that it had been up for too long. Anthere and I
discussed this and decided it should be removed until Jimbo replies to
the Slashdot interview.

As it was only supposed to be a temporary measure, there is no reason
for it currently to be up. However, perhaps we should consider whether
it needs to be a more permanent measure. If the notice is bringing in
significantly more donations than we normally get, should it be there
permanently, and just made more prominent during the fundraising
drives?

Angela.

I will try to find out when my answers will be posted, so that we can
be prepared a couple of hours in advance.

Angela_ wrote:
> As it was only supposed to be a temporary measure, there is no reason
> for it currently to be up. However, perhaps we should consider whether
> it needs to be a more permanent measure. If the notice is bringing in
> significantly more donations than we normally get, should it be there
> permanently, and just made more prominent during the fundraising
> drives?

In this regard, it is important to remember that if we can balance the
intrusiveness/tackiness of the notice properly against the usefulness
of the money that it brings in, we will have a steadier revenue stream
and not need to rely on "crisis" fundraising calls as much.

I think what we should do is move the notice toward the bottom of the
page, and have it read something like this: "If you found this article
or other Wikipedia articles to be useful to you, please visit our
<a>donation page</a> to find out how you can help support the
nonprofit Wikimedia Foundation."

It will be less prominent there, but I think highly effective. Even
if it brings in less month than a top-page notice, it will likely
bring in enough that we can delay much longer between major begging.

--Jimbo

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:27:54 -0700, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
<jwales@wikia.com> wrote:
> I think what we should do is move the notice toward the bottom of the
> page, and have it read something like this: "If you found this article
> or other Wikipedia articles to be useful to you, please visit our
> <a>donation page</a> to find out how you can help support the
> nonprofit Wikimedia Foundation."

This could be added to [[MediaWiki:Lastmodified]]. I've put a message
at [[MediaWiki talk:Lastmodified]] to check there are no strong
objections and will add the message there if there aren't. See
http://simple.wikipedia.org/ for an example of the message in use.

Angela.

--- Angela_ <beesley@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 09:27:54 -0700, Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales
> <jwales@wikia.com> wrote:
> > I think what we should do is move the notice toward the bottom of the
> > page, and have it read something like this: "If you found this article
> > or other Wikipedia articles to be useful to you, please visit our
> > <a>donation page</a> to find out how you can help support the
> > nonprofit Wikimedia Foundation."
>
> This could be added to [[MediaWiki:Lastmodified]]. I've put a message
> at [[MediaWiki talk:Lastmodified]] to check there are no strong
> objections and will add the message there if there aren't. See
> http://simple.wikipedia.org/ for an example of the message in use.

That just obscures the *very* important copyright and disclaimer info.

If we are going to have a fund drive we really need to have notices up that
people can't miss. They will be taken down when the fund drive is over.

-- mav



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales@wikia.com> wrote:
>....
> It will be less prominent there, but I think highly effective. Even
> if it brings in less month than a top-page notice, it will likely
> bring in enough that we can delay much longer between major begging.

There is nothing wrong with quarterly fund drives and having the message up
constantly will just mean that people will tend to tune it out. This is
*especially* true if it is at the bottom of pages.

Thus periodic messages in parts of a page that can't be ignored will generate
the biggest response.

These fund drives could also be coordinated with press releases, meet-ups, jam
sessions, WikiReader distribution, quarterly foundation meetings and other
special events clustered around certain weeks each quarter.

-- Daniel Mayer



__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages!
http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail

Daniel Mayer wrote:
> There is nothing wrong with quarterly fund drives and having the
> message up constantly will just mean that people will tend to tune
> it out. This is *especially* true if it is at the bottom of pages.
> Thus periodic messages in parts of a page that can't be ignored will
> generate the biggest response.

I see your point, but isn't this an empirical question? I'm not at
all confident that it is actually true that our greatest total revenue
would come in that way, and also of course, maximizing revenue isn't
the goal, but rather something like 'getting enough revenue to do what
we want to do, without being too annoying and tacky'.

--Jimbo

Daniel Mayer wrote:
> --- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales@wikia.com> wrote:
>
>>....
>>It will be less prominent there, but I think highly effective. Even
>>if it brings in less month than a top-page notice, it will likely
>>bring in enough that we can delay much longer between major begging.
>
>
> There is nothing wrong with quarterly fund drives and having the message up
> constantly will just mean that people will tend to tune it out. This is
> *especially* true if it is at the bottom of pages.
>
> Thus periodic messages in parts of a page that can't be ignored will generate
> the biggest response.
>
> These fund drives could also be coordinated with press releases, meet-ups, jam
> sessions, WikiReader distribution, quarterly foundation meetings and other
> special events clustered around certain weeks each quarter.
>
> -- Daniel Mayer


I agree with Mav on this. This is likely to be much more effective and
less intrusive generally, ihmo.

ant

--- "Jimmy (Jimbo) Wales" <jwales@wikia.com> wrote:
> I see your point, but isn't this an empirical question? I'm not at
> all confident that it is actually true that our greatest total revenue
> would come in that way, and also of course, maximizing revenue isn't
> the goal, but rather something like 'getting enough revenue to do what
> we want to do, without being too annoying and tacky'.

That is why we would create special events to coincide with fund drives. This
would limit the display of the fund drive notice to 4 weeks a year - one each
quarter. We would have certain goals to attain during that week and special
events to get people excited (a combination of meet-ups/face-to-face board
meetings, jam sessions, WikiReader work, and press releases).

I think that will be far more effective than having a constant message.

-- Daniel Mayer

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Daniel Mayer wrote:
> That just obscures the *very* important copyright and disclaimer info.

It could go underneath that then, if it is felt necessary to have a
permanent notice, which I'm not convinced about anyway.

> If we are going to have a fund drive we really need to have notices up that
people can't miss. They will be taken down when the fund drive is over.

Yes, but we're not having a fundraising drive right now. This is about
having some sort of permanent notice because you complained about the
other one being taken down. If we don't need a permanent one, then the
suggestion of having it at the bottom can just be ignored. This was
not to replace real notices during fundraising drives, which obviously
need to be prominent. It was about providing an alternative for the
periods that we are *not* having fundraising drives.

David Gerrard wrote:
> Up periodically whenever we declare a funding drive. It could do with
> a goal and a running total, by the way. It should be up from now until
> a week after Jimbo's Slashdot answers, I think.

Would it not be more effective removing it until we are on Slashdot
again? Keeping it there now when people have already started to tune
out from it doesn't seem as worthwhile as removing it now and putting
it back up when we are on Slashdot again.

> Yes, it's way too subtle.

Too subtle for a fundraising drive, yes. But we're not currently
having one of those, so isn't it better than nothing?

Angela.

Angela_ wrote:

> This could be added to [[MediaWiki:Lastmodified]]. I've put a message
> at [[MediaWiki talk:Lastmodified]] to check there are no strong
> objections and will add the message there if there aren't. See
> http://simple.wikipedia.org/ for an example of the message in use.

It's running of the screen and widening the page, thus producing a
horizontal scrollbar.

Timwi

On 07/22/04 15:36, Angela_ wrote:


> As it was only supposed to be a temporary measure, there is no reason
> for it currently to be up. However, perhaps we should consider whether
> it needs to be a more permanent measure. If the notice is bringing in
> significantly more donations than we normally get, should it be there
> permanently, and just made more prominent during the fundraising
> drives?


Up periodically whenever we declare a funding drive. It could do with
a goal and a running total, by the way. It should be up from now until
a week after Jimbo's Slashdot answers, I think.


- d.

On 07/22/04 17:21, Daniel Mayer wrote:
> --- Angela_ <beesley@gmail.com> wrote:

>>This could be added to [[MediaWiki:Lastmodified]]. I've put a message
>>at [[MediaWiki talk:Lastmodified]] to check there are no strong
>>objections and will add the message there if there aren't. See
>>http://simple.wikipedia.org/ for an example of the message in use.

> That just obscures the *very* important copyright and disclaimer info.


Yes, it's way too subtle.


> If we are going to have a fund drive we really need to have notices up that
> people can't miss. They will be taken down when the fund drive is over.


Indeed. No reason to be ashamed of a funding drive. We get our bandwidth from
girlie pics after all, what are we supposed to do for servers? ;-)


- d.

On 07/22/04 15:36, Angela_ wrote:


> As it was only supposed to be a temporary measure, there is no reason
> for it currently to be up. However, perhaps we should consider whether
> it needs to be a more permanent measure. If the notice is bringing in
> significantly more donations than we normally get, should it be there
> permanently, and just made more prominent during the fundraising
> drives?


Up periodically whenever we declare a funding drive. It could do with
a goal and a running total, by the way. It should be up from now until
a week after Jimbo's Slashdot answers, I think.


- d.

Firstly, the next time there is a system-wide message about anything other than
server downtime, armageddon, or imminent confiscation of all WM property
DOWNLOAD LAST DUMPS NOW~ ... for normal things like fundraising...
can we have a blue border perhaps? Or anything other than red?

On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 20:54:46 +0100, Angela_ <beesley@gmail.com> wrote:
> Too subtle for a fundraising drive, yes. But we're not currently
> having one of those, so isn't it better than nothing?

How about this:
* Change the color of the "Donations" sidebar link, and bold it
* Add a short, sweet note, perhaps at the bottom: "Please help keep
this site running!
<link>'''Contribute'''</link> to the <link>Wikimedia Foundation</link>.


And finally, what's with the text on the Donations page which says "this is not
a solicitation to make a donation" ? Is that why some of the "Please
help support us!"
messages are so convoluted?

+ sj -

Hi,

>
>How about this:
>* Change the color of the "Donations" sidebar link, and bold it
>* Add a short, sweet note, perhaps at the bottom: "Please help keep
>this site running!
> <link>'''Contribute'''</link> to the <link>Wikimedia Foundation</link>.
>
>
I really support the second suggestion to put a permanent Teaser as a
bottom line - after the copyright notice and set apart clearly from it.
The message of this Teaser could be changed in time.

I suggest to put such a small teaser notice on every page, on every
article of Wikipedia and I would like to make some comments on it,
because I think I have some experience here since 1996:

1) All who discuss the fundraising issue on this list should feel a deep
responsability for the thousands of authors and millions of users of
Wikipedia. Users, Authors and Admins have the right that we discussing
the flow of money for Wikipedia make the right decisions to guarantee:

* the best technical environment for user have easy and fast access 24
hours a day
* the same for all the authors and admins giving their free time for
publishing and maintenance

Bad technical performance in the past due to hardware issues should
therefore never happen again. As the numbers of users, authors, traffic,
etc. grows exponentially, there is a need of exponential growth of
hardware, housing space, traffic and therefore also a need of
exponential growth of funding. Funding needs - as have been shown here -
can be quite precisely projected out of past growth statistics. And - as
there is the responsability towards the users and knowledge workers
contributing to Wikipedia - there should be always some money on the
bank as a special case reserve fund and not a living on a nearly blank
purse. At the same time money from donations should be spent as
economically as possible to meet the responsability towards the people
donating funds.


2) The fund raising issue should therefore be split between:

a) a constant funding for constant needs with respect to the growth rate
of Wikipedia, hardware needs etc. This need of constant funding should
not be met by special calls "we have problems, please give us some
money", but by a constant, better publication of this funding issue on
the websites leading to constant flows of money meeting the constand
needs of growing Wikipedia & Co.

b) special funding calls for new, special projects as special funding
events to start new projects, etc.


3) Establishment of a constant funding scheme

The constant funding must be a scheme guaranteeing that the incoming
money growth rate meets the growth rate of Wikipedia. As this growth
rate is caused by the number of visitors, pages viewed etc. we need a
mechanism that a doubling of visitors, page views at least leads to a
doubling of the funding, etc.

It is evident, that the present link for donations on the upper left on
Wikipedia is not enough to guarantee this relation of more visitors fund
enough for more hardware etc. It is clearly to weak for this at the
moment. I suppose this could be quite easily solved if we put more ideas
together here. My suggestions:

a) Put a teaser as proposed above

"Add a short, sweet note, perhaps at the bottom: "Please help keep
this site running!
<link>'''Contribute'''</link> to the <link>Wikimedia Foundation</link>."

on the end of each article, not only on the homepage. A Website like
Wikipedia is like an Ants heap, millions of people are coming in by
hundredthousands of entry pages and leave them by other or same
hundredthousends of doors. We tend to see Websites from the homepage
point of view, thats how the website makers see it. But in reality only
a small percentage of people ever see the homepage. Therefore it is
advisable to put a message on every page, but to put it at the end of
the page so it does not disturb people in their reading. When people
arrive by reading at the end of the page then you most probably have
those people who liked what they read. That means you have most probably
also those people who are more likely to donate then others, who stop
reading after the first lines.

b) Adapt the FSF funding idea - recommend people to buy their books over
Wikipedia affiliate links -

The ISBN numbers on Wikipedia lead to the page where you find different
options for finding the books including online bookshops. If Wikimedia
would register at Amazon, Barns & Nobles and other online bookshops and
change the present links on this page to affiliate links, there would be
also a constant flow of money for the foundation without any
advertising, without changing anything from non commercial to
commercial. Only the links have changed, not the page and the online
bookshops themselves. I hope you get what I mean - do not change any
text here in order to get funds, just keep it free of greed ;-) but
offer them as affiliate partner links like FSF seems to do it.

On the funding information pages one could also inform every reader that
he can make a donation automatically if he is buying book, media etc.
anyway but chooses a link via the wikipedia links for online bookshops
on the general information page about where to find books. I think that
many people would be happy to buy their books knowing that Wikimedia
gets a funding by doing this and they do not have any trouble in
transferring money to the foundations, credit cards, Pay Pal etc. and
they even do not pay more then they would do otherwise.

I think that Jimbo made a good point in his last e-mail suggesting that
different options should be tested and what will be the results. Its my
own experience with the internet - it is much better to do small tests
and if it works go that way further on, if it does not work just leave
it again. It saves much time of discussions what will happen when -
you mostly just don't really know it before testing.


4) Save the funding calls for special occasions

As already said, my feeling is that special calls for funding should be
left for special occasions, special project ideas etc. But not for
constant money needs like hardware etc. I am confident, that this money
needed for all normal operations will be received with ease by just
implementing a charming, also alterating bottom line donation message on
every page plus affiliate links for bookshops which are mentioned anyhow
on the page.

just my 2 cents

Dietrich
hase@akademie.de