Mailing List Archive

On 9/5/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
> Luiz Augusto wrote:
>
> >Sorry Jeffrey V. Merkey but all of your messages related to machine
> >translations in a project >OUTSIDE< of Wikimedia Foudation is reported as
> >Spam by me, using "Report Spam" button on Gmail system.
> >
> >
> As said, A business related list is needed. This posting is a good
> example why...
>
If you have a high-priority and/or important business question, which
you want to be answered by nobody but Foundation officials, why don't
you just write an email to the Foundation? There is board at wikimedia
dot org and bpatrick at wikimedia dot org (Brad Patrick, general
counsel & Interim Executive Director WMF) for your convenience. I
don't think that you can prohibit community members from expressing
themselves when using a mailing list. There is private email for
business purposes.
Michael
> Jeff
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Michael Bimmler wrote:

>On 9/5/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
>
>>Luiz Augusto wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Sorry Jeffrey V. Merkey but all of your messages related to machine
>>>translations in a project >OUTSIDE< of Wikimedia Foudation is reported as
>>>Spam by me, using "Report Spam" button on Gmail system.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>As said, A business related list is needed. This posting is a good
>>example why...
>>
>>
>>
>If you have a high-priority and/or important business question, which
>you want to be answered by nobody but Foundation officials, why don't
>you just write an email to the Foundation? There is board at wikimedia
>dot org and bpatrick at wikimedia dot org (Brad Patrick, general
>counsel & Interim Executive Director WMF) for your convenience.
>
I do this all the time with Brad and those emails dont make it to this list.

>I
>don't think that you can prohibit community members from expressing
>themselves when using a mailing list. There is private email for
>business purposes.
>
>

I am not trying to prohibit anyone from expressing themselves, in fact,
it's the other way
around, I am often the target of folks oppressing my expressions for
purely political reasons.
I have no problem using the foundation list for progress on African
languages and other programs, but a business
oriented list would be a better solution. The problem with the community
moderator concept
here is there may be other businesses spring up and when a non-employee
threatens to moderate
or does moderate someone on such a list, there are some issues
potentially created for the foundation.
Issues I would rather not deal with.

Jeff

>Michael
>
>


>
>

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Arbeiter in der ganzen Welt,
nope,

Hello Wikipedians,
please remember one old our axiom right now.

DONT FEED A TROLL

and be wise enough ignore taunts of Mr. Jeff V. Merkey. He will find
his own community, somewhere else, and it will be not our business at
all in my precognition.

Cheers,

On 9/6/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
> Michael Bimmler wrote:
>
> >On 9/5/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Luiz Augusto wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>Sorry Jeffrey V. Merkey but all of your messages related to machine
> >>>translations in a project >OUTSIDE< of Wikimedia Foudation is reported as
> >>>Spam by me, using "Report Spam" button on Gmail system.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>As said, A business related list is needed. This posting is a good
> >>example why...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >If you have a high-priority and/or important business question, which
> >you want to be answered by nobody but Foundation officials, why don't
> >you just write an email to the Foundation? There is board at wikimedia
> >dot org and bpatrick at wikimedia dot org (Brad Patrick, general
> >counsel & Interim Executive Director WMF) for your convenience.
> >
> I do this all the time with Brad and those emails dont make it to this list.
>
> >I
> >don't think that you can prohibit community members from expressing
> >themselves when using a mailing list. There is private email for
> >business purposes.
> >
> >
>
> I am not trying to prohibit anyone from expressing themselves, in fact,
> it's the other way
> around, I am often the target of folks oppressing my expressions for
> purely political reasons.
> I have no problem using the foundation list for progress on African
> languages and other programs, but a business
> oriented list would be a better solution. The problem with the community
> moderator concept
> here is there may be other businesses spring up and when a non-employee
> threatens to moderate
> or does moderate someone on such a list, there are some issues
> potentially created for the foundation.
> Issues I would rather not deal with.
>
> Jeff
>
> >Michael
> >
> >
>
>
> >
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>


--
Kizu Naoko
Wikiquote: http://wikiquote.org
* vivemus, mea Lesbia, amemus *
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Aphaia wrote:

>Arbeiter in der ganzen Welt,
>nope,
>
>Hello Wikipedians,
>please remember one old our axiom right now.
>
> DONT FEED A TROLL
>
>and be wise enough ignore taunts of Mr. Jeff V. Merkey. He will find
>his own community, somewhere else, and it will be not our business at
>all in my precognition.
>
>Cheers,
>
>
>
Hello Aphaia,

I am not taunting anyone, and I am sorry you feel this way, and I
apologize if an impression was created
this is the case.

Have a great day. I have some more units to ship today.

Jeff
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Off-list-reply, following Aphaia's plea

On 9/5/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
> Michael Bimmler wrote:
>
> >
> >If you have a high-priority and/or important business question, which
> >you want to be answered by nobody but Foundation officials, why don't
> >you just write an email to the Foundation? There is board at wikimedia
> >dot org and bpatrick at wikimedia dot org (Brad Patrick, general
> >counsel & Interim Executive Director WMF) for your convenience.
> >
> I do this all the time with Brad and those emails dont make it to this list.
>
Well, okay, so you can handle your questions with Brad and everything
is fine. Why do send them to the list then?
> >I
> >don't think that you can prohibit community members from expressing
> >themselves when using a mailing list. There is private email for
> >business purposes.
> >
> >
>
> I am not trying to prohibit anyone from expressing themselves, in fact,
> it's the other way
> around, I am often the target of folks oppressing my expressions for
> purely political reasons.
It might rather be for on-/offtopic reasons...

> I have no problem using the foundation list for progress on African
> languages and other programs, but a business
> oriented list would be a better solution. The problem with the community
> moderator concept
> here is there may be other businesses spring up and when a non-employee
> threatens to moderate
> or does moderate someone on such a list, there are some issues
> potentially created for the foundation.
> Issues I would rather not deal with.
>
I beg your pardon? Are you implying that the foundation may get legal
problems (my translation of your word "issue") as they allow
experienced members (not everybody gets list-moderator...) to moderate
the mailinglists? If the Foundation decides. that its mailing list
shall rather be administered by volunteers chosen by them than by e.g.
office employees, I don't see any problem in that solution. And if
these volunteer admins hence moderate or threaten to moderate posts to
the lists, they are just using the powers given to them by the
Foundation. If serious concerns about the actions of a list admin are
raised, they will reach the foundation and the foundation *might* if
they deem it appropriate consider the removal of the administrator
functions of the user in question. As said, this is quite unlikely, as
the list administrators are without exception distinguished users.
So I see no problem whatsoever with having non-foundation-employees
administering this list.

Michael
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Uh, if you mark something as "off-list" you should maybe also not send
it to the list afterwards. Sorry for having continued this thread, I
shall shut up now.

On 9/5/06, Michael Bimmler <mbimmler@gmail.com> wrote:
> Off-list-reply, following Aphaia's plea
>
> On 9/5/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
> > Michael Bimmler wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >If you have a high-priority and/or important business question, which
> > >you want to be answered by nobody but Foundation officials, why don't
> > >you just write an email to the Foundation? There is board at wikimedia
> > >dot org and bpatrick at wikimedia dot org (Brad Patrick, general
> > >counsel & Interim Executive Director WMF) for your convenience.
> > >
> > I do this all the time with Brad and those emails dont make it to this list.
> >
> Well, okay, so you can handle your questions with Brad and everything
> is fine. Why do send them to the list then?
> > >I
> > >don't think that you can prohibit community members from expressing
> > >themselves when using a mailing list. There is private email for
> > >business purposes.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I am not trying to prohibit anyone from expressing themselves, in fact,
> > it's the other way
> > around, I am often the target of folks oppressing my expressions for
> > purely political reasons.
> It might rather be for on-/offtopic reasons...
>
> > I have no problem using the foundation list for progress on African
> > languages and other programs, but a business
> > oriented list would be a better solution. The problem with the community
> > moderator concept
> > here is there may be other businesses spring up and when a non-employee
> > threatens to moderate
> > or does moderate someone on such a list, there are some issues
> > potentially created for the foundation.
> > Issues I would rather not deal with.
> >
> I beg your pardon? Are you implying that the foundation may get legal
> problems (my translation of your word "issue") as they allow
> experienced members (not everybody gets list-moderator...) to moderate
> the mailinglists? If the Foundation decides. that its mailing list
> shall rather be administered by volunteers chosen by them than by e.g.
> office employees, I don't see any problem in that solution. And if
> these volunteer admins hence moderate or threaten to moderate posts to
> the lists, they are just using the powers given to them by the
> Foundation. If serious concerns about the actions of a list admin are
> raised, they will reach the foundation and the foundation *might* if
> they deem it appropriate consider the removal of the administrator
> functions of the user in question. As said, this is quite unlikely, as
> the list administrators are without exception distinguished users.
> So I see no problem whatsoever with having non-foundation-employees
> administering this list.
>
> Michael
>
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I'm somewhat puzzled at the response to this thread. I appreciate Mr
Merkey has greatly annoyed many people in the past, but I know he's
putting in effort to work better with others now; and I'm not saying
Assume Good Faith In The Face Of All Reason (there are many people
whose names I never want to see in my Wikipedia email ever again) -
but that first mail read to *me* like a Wikimedia bug report (problems
reading data dumps), which only needs redirection to wikitech.

So, um, could everyone please just take a deep breath? And if there's
a problem with the current dumps, I'm sure the devs would rather know
than not know, and politely directing people to the right list is a
better response even if it was sent by Lir or Wik or Plautus Satire or
something.

(And I know I'm way guilty of blowing my top inappropriately on the
lists of late and do apologise again and will calm down and settle
into middle-aged suburban existence soon, I swear.)


- d.
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David Gerard wrote:

>I'm somewhat puzzled at the response to this thread. I appreciate Mr
>Merkey has greatly annoyed many people in the past, but I know he's
>putting in effort to work better with others now; and I'm not saying
>Assume Good Faith In The Face Of All Reason (there are many people
>whose names I never want to see in my Wikipedia email ever again) -
>but that first mail read to *me* like a Wikimedia bug report (problems
>reading data dumps), which only needs redirection to wikitech.
>
>So, um, could everyone please just take a deep breath? And if there's
>a problem with the current dumps, I'm sure the devs would rather know
>than not know, and politely directing people to the right list is a
>better response even if it was sent by Lir or Wik or Plautus Satire or
>something.
>
>(And I know I'm way guilty of blowing my top inappropriately on the
>lists of late and do apologise again and will calm down and settle
>into middle-aged suburban existence soon, I swear.)
>
>
>- d.
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>foundation-l mailing list
>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
David,

I appreciate your professional anbd courteous response.

I will post bug reports to the other list in the future (if they are bug
reports). I raised this issue in the chat room several weeks ago and I just
waited and waited and never saw any action taken or fixes to the problem
and I had to make the php fixes myself for some pending
appliance shipments, so I felt like I was helping by providing a fixed
version and bringing it to the Foundations attention. They after all
are posting dumps and telling the public to use MediaWiki with them. I
felt they should be informed there are potential issues with
the whole thing working as advertised.

It affects our efforts more directly since we provide the ability to
sync and seed new communities with entire full mirrors of wikipedia
that actually work and can resync with the Foundation. I certainly did
not want to create hurt feelings and my suggestion about a
business related list was to take many of these issues into another
forum so the Foundation could manage them separately. I have been
working very hard on these projects to help the Foundation and your
assessment is very accurate and informed.

Jeff
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On 05/09/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:

> I appreciate your professional anbd courteous response.


I'm working more on holding my tongue, having posted a few too many
"WHAT THE F- CRACK ARE YOU ON" style posts of late ;-p


> It affects our efforts more directly since we provide the ability to
> sync and seed new communities with entire full mirrors of wikipedia
> that actually work and can resync with the Foundation.


Well, yes - mirrors and reuse are a good thing. I know there's been a
few issues with dumps. Basically, the devs' priority is keeping the
sites running, and dumps are secondary. This is way less than ideal,
but we're a top-20 website with NO MONEY and NO STAFF. Everyone else
in the top 20 has a huge technical team and an actual budget ... we
have two technical employees and still I think run under $1m a year,
which is chickenfeed for what we serve. This is not an excuse, just
stating the reason.


- d.
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On 9/5/06, Jeff V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
> David Gerard wrote:


(...)

It affects our efforts more directly since we provide the ability to
> sync and seed new communities with entire full mirrors of wikipedia
> that actually work and can resync with the Foundation. I certainly did
> not want to create hurt feelings and my suggestion about a
> business related list was to take many of these issues into another
> forum so the Foundation could manage them separately. I have been
> working very hard on these projects to help the Foundation and your
> assessment is very accurate and informed.
>
> Jeff
>

I have a nicely private working wiki with the last dump of Portuguese
Wikisource for personal tests and research using MediaWiki 1.>>8alpha<< (and
some extensions) sincronized from subversion repository in a Ubuntu Linux
machine and I never needed to ask something in foundation-l or in any
another mail listing on how to get it working (the only know issue is the
non display of Commons media, but this isn't a bug, is only a limitation).
My real work isn't related to IT, I'm a historian. Jeff, please STOP talking
about your efforts related to translation machines on this list. I and
anothers spend only free time to devote to Wikimedia projects and these
off-topic messages is time spendend in non-Wikimedia efforts in a Wikimedia
only list.

If you (or anothers) need to reply something to me about this message, do it
only privately.

Thanks for you attention and understanding
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Luiz Augusto wrote:

>
>My real work isn't related to IT, I'm a historian. Jeff, please STOP talking
>about your efforts related to translation machines on this list. I and
>anothers spend only free time to devote to Wikimedia projects and these
>off-topic messages is time spendend in non-Wikimedia efforts in a Wikimedia
>only list.
>
>If you (or anothers) need to reply something to me about this message, do it
>only privately.
>
>
>
Have a great day Luiz, I completely disagree with your views, but
nonetheless, have a great day.

:-)

Jeff
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