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Lars Aronsson wrote:

>Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
>
>
>
>>Disagree. I've talked to a lot of organizatons and groups who
>>love WMF content but want to filter it for in-house use similiar
>>to CleanFlix. Most educational facilities and religious groups
>>who really love wikipedia want a "clean" version of the content,
>>with most of the sexual revolution/pro-alternate lifestyle
>>propoganda materials removed from the dumps.
>>
>>
>
>You're confusing the issue. Those groups *don't* love Wikipedia.
>We're not here to accomodate and please.
>
>
It sounds like you are not here to accomodate and please, but I doubt
this reflects
everyones views.

>Just consider the "conservative group" in Germany only 70 years
>ago that didn't want all this "propaganda" for interracial
>marriage, etc. How would you adopt Wikipedia to suit them?
>
>
Since I am married to a German Citizen I can answer that. I am not
adapting it
to serve anyone, I simply provide filtering mechanisms they can use to
filter the dumps.
That's up to the users, not me. I personally don't care what's in it.

Jeff

>
>
>

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On 7/26/06, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]
> > With all revision pages its around 3 TB total.
>
> That really requires advanced tech. At Wikipedia revision pages are
> compressed, and a proper compression run contracts whole dataset into
> 0.5T or so (or less).

A minor nit.. with braindead stupid compression (toasted columns in
PGsql which use a modified LZ algo which gets less compression than
gzip -3 but is much faster and compresses a single row at a time) you
can get the whole of english wikipedia into 0.4TB including the needed
indexes and the (not insubstantial) DB overhead.

With state of the art compression (lzma) you can get all the revisions
into 6gb, but you lose random access. At wikimania tech days I'll be
presenting a system which achieves similar compression perform ace but
preserves random access... Which is at least a mildly interesting
subject, although perhaps without practical implications for wikimedia
until the disk/cpu performance gap widens a bit further. :)
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Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:

> I simply provide filtering mechanisms they can use to filter the
> dumps. That's up to the users, not me. I personally don't care
> what's in it.

I find this deeply problematic. Are you providing your audience
with a product that says "this is Wikipedia" and where the edit
history for an article says "this part was written by user:LA2"
but where the stuff I wrote might be filtered out?


--
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On 7/26/06, Lars Aronsson <lars@aronsson.se> wrote:
> I find this deeply problematic. Are you providing your audience
> with a product that says "this is Wikipedia" and where the edit
> history for an article says "this part was written by user:LA2"
> but where the stuff I wrote might be filtered out?

Do you also find it problematic that someone can remove what you wrote
with a later edit and yet your username still remains in the history?
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Lars Aronsson wrote:

>Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
>
>
>
>>I simply provide filtering mechanisms they can use to filter the
>>dumps. That's up to the users, not me. I personally don't care
>>what's in it.
>>
>>
>
>I find this deeply problematic. Are you providing your audience
>with a product that says "this is Wikipedia" and where the edit
>history for an article says "this part was written by user:LA2"
>but where the stuff I wrote might be filtered out?
>
>
That's what the GFDL is all about **ANYONE** may edit. This also means
**ANYONE** can edit or filter out materials.


>
>
>

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Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
> >I find this deeply problematic. Are you providing your audience
> >with a product that says "this is Wikipedia" and where the edit
> >history for an article says "this part was written by user:LA2"
> >but where the stuff I wrote might be filtered out?
> >
> That's what the GFDL is all about **ANYONE** may edit. This also means
> **ANYONE** can edit or filter out materials.

Yes of course, but then the article history shows that someone
else had edited the text after I was there, and the diff (included
in the distribution or available by link to the Wikipedia website)
shows exactly what my contribution was. Does your filter program
show its own modifications in the article history?



--
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On 7/26/06, Lars Aronsson <lars@aronsson.se> wrote:
> Yes of course, but then the article history shows that someone
> else had edited the text after I was there, and the diff (included
> in the distribution or available by link to the Wikipedia website)
> shows exactly what my contribution was. Does your filter program
> show its own modifications in the article history?

The GFDL doesn't require that a distributor make every previous
version available.
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Folks,

Jeff is actually trying to build a business based on reusing Wikipedia
content, and yet a good half of these posts attack him for making use of the
content. Nowhere in our charter does it say that we're building an
immutable work. Let people who want to tweak it, rename it, change my
username to a foul word, rename all mentions of Jimmy Wales to "Evil
Dictator" or whatever do so. The source material is Wikipedia. The end
users can't call theirs Wikipedia, since that's the WMF's trademark. Beyond
that, we should be encouraging all uses --

On 7/26/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 7/26/06, Lars Aronsson <lars@aronsson.se> wrote:
> > Yes of course, but then the article history shows that someone
> > else had edited the text after I was there, and the diff (included
> > in the distribution or available by link to the Wikipedia website)
> > shows exactly what my contribution was. Does your filter program
> > show its own modifications in the article history?
>
> The GFDL doesn't require that a distributor make every previous
> version available.
> _______________________________________________
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On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 10:15:00AM -0600, Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
> Making WP more pervasive also means
> accomodating folks who have differing views and values.

That's what NPOV was supposed to do. Ut oh!

read you soon,
Kim Bruning

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Jeff is making his own business with these? I thought he was just trying to
help Wikipedia with his assistance.

Either way, I am pleased with his efforts.

On 7/27/06, Ilya Haykinson <haykinson@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Folks,
>
> Jeff is actually trying to build a business based on reusing Wikipedia
> content, and yet a good half of these posts attack him for making use of
> the
> content. Nowhere in our charter does it say that we're building an
> immutable work. Let people who want to tweak it, rename it, change my
> username to a foul word, rename all mentions of Jimmy Wales to "Evil
> Dictator" or whatever do so. The source material is Wikipedia. The end
> users can't call theirs Wikipedia, since that's the WMF's
> trademark. Beyond
> that, we should be encouraging all uses --
>
> On 7/26/06, Gregory Maxwell <gmaxwell@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > On 7/26/06, Lars Aronsson <lars@aronsson.se> wrote:
> > > Yes of course, but then the article history shows that someone
> > > else had edited the text after I was there, and the diff (included
> > > in the distribution or available by link to the Wikipedia website)
> > > shows exactly what my contribution was. Does your filter program
> > > show its own modifications in the article history?
> >
> > The GFDL doesn't require that a distributor make every previous
> > version available.
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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>
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Hoi,
In the past encyclopedias have played a certain role. They explained how
things are. They did this with quite some disregard to what the powers that
be thought about this. When information is filtered from Wikipedia, you
explicitly allow people to be blindsighted because of an intentional lack of
information.

Statistics show that kids who are exposed to sexual education, in an
atmosphere where the functionality of sexuality is not a taboo subject are
less likely to get prematurely pregnant. They are also less likely to get
venereal deseases.

Indeed the GFDL allows you to do this "service" to your communities. It is
as they say: the law is an ass.

Thanks,
GerardM

On 7/27/06, Jeffrey V. Merkey <jmerkey@wolfmountaingroup.com> wrote:
>
> Lars Aronsson wrote:
>
> >Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>I simply provide filtering mechanisms they can use to filter the
> >>dumps. That's up to the users, not me. I personally don't care
> >>what's in it.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I find this deeply problematic. Are you providing your audience
> >with a product that says "this is Wikipedia" and where the edit
> >history for an article says "this part was written by user:LA2"
> >but where the stuff I wrote might be filtered out?
> >
> >
> That's what the GFDL is all about **ANYONE** may edit. This also means
> **ANYONE** can edit or filter out materials.
>
>
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On 7/27/06, Kim Bruning <kim@bruning.xs4all.nl> wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 10:15:00AM -0600, Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
> > Making WP more pervasive also means
> > accomodating folks who have differing views and values.
>
> That's what NPOV was supposed to do. Ut oh!

NPOV, used properly, makes life bearable for a broad spectrum of *editors*.

NPOV does nothing to help someone who has decided that an image of a
penis will scar their children for life.
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Gregory Maxwell wrote:
> On 7/27/06, Kim Bruning <kim@bruning.xs4all.nl> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jul 26, 2006 at 10:15:00AM -0600, Jeffrey V. Merkey wrote:
>>
>>> Making WP more pervasive also means
>>> accomodating folks who have differing views and values.
>>>
>> That's what NPOV was supposed to do. Ut oh!
>>
>
> NPOV, used properly, makes life bearable for a broad spectrum of *editors*.
>
> NPOV does nothing to help someone who has decided that an image of a
> penis will scar their children for life.
Hoi,
Would that someone have only daughters ? And is she a woman ?
Thanks,
GerardM

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On 7/27/06, Domas Mituzas <midom.lists@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Now strings are defined by community, as community supports Wikipedia.
> I'm not CFO, so I'm quite happy about that ;-)

And although you might disagree, I have no reason you are not Hardware
Officer either. I know Delphine calls herself "the former" Chapter
Officer (and now Chair of LCCom). Danny thinks himself GrO still,
Elian resigned, as for other officers, I have no clue.

Related to a certain website, I would like to know the exact contact
Wikimedia Officers or their successors concerning updates of reports
from each field. Is there any latest chart of the Wikimedia Foundation
Organisation? Or we can say "the officers are still in office, unless
they resigned"

Um, however, as for Hardware, I think we need to argue with whom and
on what a comcom member should talk to get a new update? <g>

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Ilya Haykinson wrote:

>Folks,
>
>Jeff is actually trying to build a business based on reusing Wikipedia
>content, and yet a good half of these posts attack him for making use of the
>content. Nowhere in our charter does it say that we're building an
>immutable work. Let people who want to tweak it, rename it, change my
>username to a foul word, rename all mentions of Jimmy Wales to "Evil
>Dictator" or whatever do so. The source material is Wikipedia. The end
>users can't call theirs Wikipedia, since that's the WMF's trademark. Beyond
>that, we should be encouraging all uses --
>
Yes. The more of these there are the better. This includes the right
to use all or part of the Wikimedia material to start a new wiki. The
result still has to be consistent with GFDL, and trademark limitations
should not be that much of a problem. These new wikis aren't bound by
NPOV, and they can be as liberal or conservative as they want around
copyright law. If they want to avoid wikilove and establish a
flame-wiki that's up to them too.

This all seems consistent with freedom of information.

Ec

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Ray Saintonge wrote:

>Ilya Haykinson wrote:
>
>
>
>>Folks,
>>
>>Jeff is actually trying to build a business based on reusing Wikipedia
>>content, and yet a good half of these posts attack him for making use of the
>>content. Nowhere in our charter does it say that we're building an
>>immutable work. Let people who want to tweak it, rename it, change my
>>username to a foul word, rename all mentions of Jimmy Wales to "Evil
>>Dictator" or whatever do so. The source material is Wikipedia. The end
>>users can't call theirs Wikipedia, since that's the WMF's trademark. Beyond
>>that, we should be encouraging all uses --
>>
>>
>>
>Yes. The more of these there are the better. This includes the right
>to use all or part of the Wikimedia material to start a new wiki. The
>result still has to be consistent with GFDL, and trademark limitations
>should not be that much of a problem. These new wikis aren't bound by
>NPOV, and they can be as liberal or conservative as they want around
>copyright law. If they want to avoid wikilove and establish a
>flame-wiki that's up to them too.
>
>This all seems consistent with freedom of information.
>
>Ec
>
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>
>
Well,

I don't have plans to call Jimbo an "Evil Dictator" and slam anyone else
ever again in the
community.

This project is for Native Langauge Preservation with each tribe getting
their own appliance and
translator to translate content and host it locally. I plan to help out
with Foundation with
my translation work, and we are actually one of the few groups actually
using wikibooks
for an actual education program, so the fit is a good one.

As for wikilove, I have my good share of it, after all, I am one of the
few community members
still here and doing my best to help out after the flame war of the
century with the Wikipedia
Community. I just hope everyone can forgive and forget and we can all
work together moving forward.

Jeff
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