Mailing List Archive

On 7/20/06, Eric R. Meyers <ermeyers@adelphia.net> wrote:
> Hello Wikiversity Opinion forums,
>
> Please forgive me for showing up so very late in this very important
> discussion about the Wikiversity project, just to give you my personal
> opinion, but I've been very busy recovering from a very serious Central
> Nervous System (CNS) disorder for the past 2-1/2 years, and I just started
> getting the mental energy to put my mind and my life back together this past
> spring.
>
> I've been very impressed with everything that The Wikimedia Foundation has
> been creating while I've been gone, and I consider myself very lucky to be
> doing my stuff with the help of Angela and Sannse at Wikia.
>
> I've placed an entry following Cormaggio's at
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikiversity#Proposal_-_done.3F.
>
> Please make me, and everyone else in the world who sincerely cares about
> public learning and the excellent Wikiversity project, "joyful" about the
> [[Wikiversity:Main_Page]] being implemented as soon as possible.
>
> James, or Jimbo, I'd like to meet you too, someday. :)
>
> Will someone please put this good thing on his desk today, so that he and
> everyone else on the board can sign it off and get it done for the public
> good.
>
> Yes, I'm crazy. :)
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Eric
>


Thanks Eric :-)

Just to say that I expect the Special projects committee to make a
decision on Wikiversity at its meeting tonight (possibly deferred to
sometime over the weekend), which will then be passed to the board, so
you possibly don't have to wait too much longer.

Anyway, good to see such joy expressed :-)

Cheers,
Cormac

PS: Eric, I replied to your Meta comment on your Wikipedia User talk page.
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Eric R. Meyers wrote:
> Hello Wikiversity Opinion forums,

Hello

> Please forgive me for showing up so very late in this very important
> discussion about the Wikiversity project, just to give you my personal
> opinion, but I've been very busy recovering from a very serious Central
> Nervous System (CNS) disorder for the past 2-1/2 years, and I just started
> getting the mental energy to put my mind and my life back together this past
> spring.

Glad for you :-)

> I've been very impressed with everything that The Wikimedia Foundation has
> been creating while I've been gone, and I consider myself very lucky to be
> doing my stuff with the help of Angela and Sannse at Wikia.

You aware that Wikia and Wikimedia Foundation are two different
entities, right ?

> I've placed an entry following Cormaggio's at
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikiversity#Proposal_-_done.3F.
>
> Please make me, and everyone else in the world who sincerely cares about
> public learning and the excellent Wikiversity project, "joyful" about the
> [[Wikiversity:Main_Page]] being implemented as soon as possible.
>
> James, or Jimbo, I'd like to meet you too, someday. :)
>
> Will someone please put this good thing on his desk today, so that he and
> everyone else on the board can sign it off and get it done for the public
> good.

If you can find a way to make Jimbo sign/vote stuff, please tell me the
secret :-) I am interested.

On a serious note, the spc is considering the creation of it. I intend
the committee to give its opinion before Wikimania on the topic. It
would be real cool if we could announce that at that time :-)

Then, after committee approval, we have roughly two options. We must
submit it for board approval, which requires at least 3 approval, so at
least 3 votes (there are 5 board members).
Option 1 : submit it to the board and wait for the 3 votes. This may
take a very long time.
Option 2 : submit it with a maximum delay, after which only votes given
are taken into account.

In the past few days, I have been considering the three levels, data,
information and knowledge. Most of our projects are actually providing
"information". Wiktionary is rather providing "data". Wikibooks is
sometimes providing "information" but it is sometimes wandering in
"knowledge". Wikiversity will definitly entering the field of knowledge
and this is what worried editors the most (the teaching part). Still, if
I look well, the Foundation is claiming bringing knowledge. I see no
reason why this project should not be started.

Ant

> Yes, I'm crazy. :)
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Eric
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
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On Thursday 20 July 2006 13:21, Anthere wrote:
> > I've been very impressed with everything that The Wikimedia Foundation
> > has been creating while I've been gone, and I consider myself very lucky
> > to be doing my stuff with the help of Angela and Sannse at Wikia.
>
> You aware that Wikia and Wikimedia Foundation are two different
> entities, right ?
>
Yes.

I originally came to foundation-l earlier this month to ask for some expert
guidance about starting The Perl Wiki, and all that I previously knew about
was Wikipedia and Wiktionary, because I've used them to learn about many
things. I'm always searching to identify what is wrong with my CNS, because
what I'm suffering from is very rare, if not unique, and the doctors don't
have a clue, so I'm just a little brain chemistry experiment to them. The
physical disability is no fun at all, but at least I've got my mind back to
work finally, and I'm restarting my life, and I lived through a hell for my
two young girls. :)

Angela started up http://perl.wikia.com for me, and I been over there
inventing the structure of The Perl Wiki since then, but I haven't got enough
help yet to start producing the content that the Perl Wikipedians demand for
me to link into the Perl article. I've got one systems programmer helping me
out.

> > James, or Jimbo, I'd like to meet you too, someday. :)
> >
> > Will someone please put this good thing on his desk today, so that he and
> > everyone else on the board can sign it off and get it done for the public
> > good.
>
> If you can find a way to make Jimbo sign/vote stuff, please tell me the
> secret :-) I am interested.
>
Be crazy enough to ask for "The Right Thing" to happen at "The Right Time." :)

> On a serious note, the spc is considering the creation of it. I intend
> the committee to give its opinion before Wikimania on the topic. It
> would be real cool if we could announce that at that time :-)
>
Now I'll learn about Wikimania.

> Then, after committee approval, we have roughly two options. We must
> submit it for board approval, which requires at least 3 approval, so at
> least 3 votes (there are 5 board members).
> Option 1 : submit it to the board and wait for the 3 votes. This may
> take a very long time.
> Option 2 : submit it with a maximum delay, after which only votes given
> are taken into account.
>
> In the past few days, I have been considering the three levels, data,
> information and knowledge. Most of our projects are actually providing
> "information". Wiktionary is rather providing "data". Wikibooks is
> sometimes providing "information" but it is sometimes wandering in
> "knowledge". Wikiversity will definitly entering the field of knowledge
> and this is what worried editors the most (the teaching part). Still, if
> I look well, the Foundation is claiming bringing knowledge. I see no
> reason why this project should not be started.
>

I don't believe that this should be so complicated. Please read my personal
apology at the bottom of
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikiversity#Wikiversity_.E2.80.93_Final_Push

The 5 board members are actually living, breathing and thinking human beings
with the full mental capacity to be very proactive for "The Right Thing" to
happen at "The Right Time," and that is today, now and ASAP. So much has
already been lost in this great delay. The real shame is that some very good
people have simply walked away from supporting this very good thing. I've
seen it, because it's in the record. It's time for the 5 board members to
show some of their own "joyful" enthusiasm to actively bring this good thing
to fruition, or just kill it outright, so that it can find a better home in
this world.

What is The Truth?

Thanks,

Eric

> Ant
>
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On 7/21/06, Eric R. Meyers <ermeyers@adelphia.net> wrote:

> The 5 board members are actually living, breathing and thinking human beings
> with the full mental capacity to be very proactive for "The Right Thing" to
> happen at "The Right Time,"

Do you have any evidence for that claim?

Angela.
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On Thursday 20 July 2006 22:29, Angela wrote:
> On 7/21/06, Eric R. Meyers <ermeyers@adelphia.net> wrote:
> > The 5 board members are actually living, breathing and thinking human
> > beings with the full mental capacity to be very proactive for "The Right
> > Thing" to happen at "The Right Time,"
>
> Do you have any evidence for that claim?
>
> Angela.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

You know better than me. I actually was just thinking about you. :)

You're great!

Eric

Angela is currently in the process of resigning from the board -
please see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2006-07-03/Angela%27s_resignation

On 21/07/06, Eric R. Meyers <ermeyers@adelphia.net> wrote:
> On Thursday 20 July 2006 22:29, Angela wrote:
> > On 7/21/06, Eric R. Meyers <ermeyers@adelphia.net> wrote:
> > > The 5 board members are actually living, breathing and thinking human
> > > beings with the full mental capacity to be very proactive for "The Right
> > > Thing" to happen at "The Right Time,"
> >
> > Do you have any evidence for that claim?
> >
> > Angela.
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
> You know better than me. I actually was just thinking about you. :)
>
> You're great!
>
> Eric
>
>
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> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
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>
>
>
>


--
—Xyrael ~ <xyr>
sean@silentflame.com | xyrael.net
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On 7/20/06, Anthere <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:

> In the past few days, I have been considering the three levels, data,
> information and knowledge. Most of our projects are actually providing
> "information". Wiktionary is rather providing "data". Wikibooks is
> sometimes providing "information" but it is sometimes wandering in
> "knowledge". Wikiversity will definitly entering the field of knowledge
> and this is what worried editors the most (the teaching part). Still, if
> I look well, the Foundation is claiming bringing knowledge. I see no
> reason why this project should not be started.
>
> Ant
>


Thanks Anthere,

that's a really good way of putting it. The way I've always seen
Wikiversity is that we are not simply providing information, but
generating knowledge. That, after all, is what learning is all about.
I would argue (and have done) that generating knowledge and learning
is an incidental part of what we do as participants on any Wikimedia
project - it's just that we make this an explicit aspect of
Wikiversity.

To backtrack slightly, when we got going on the modified Wikiversity
proposal, in the wake of the community vote and the board
non-approval, we were at a loss to tie together the interests/needs of
several in the community who wanted to teach courses, and the board's
recommendation that we "exclude online courses". Our solution is to
primarily host content, while also providing for learning
communities/study groups around this content - networks/spaces for
asking and answering questions, or posing and solving problems.
However, I think in order to be sustainable, Wikiversity will need to
put a primacy on its content, as was suggested by Daniel (Mav). We
simply do not know how communities will work - this is an experimental
side to Wikiversity, which could fail, though I anticipate it to be
its central success :-)

However, to address your point, the bylaws
<http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_bylaws>
state that we develop and maintain "collections of documents,
information, and other informational databases in all the languages of
the world". I wonder if this should not be changed to include
"educational resources" (since this is what we do) - "information"
just seems too narrow. It doesn't really (for me) encompass our better
known ideal of "a world in which every single person is given free
access to the sum of all human knowledge".

What say ye?

Cormac
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Hi Cormac and Anthere,

First, I'd like to amplify what I wrote earlier:
> ... bring this good thing to fruition, or just kill it outright, so that it
, KNOWLEDGE,
> can find a better home in this world.

On Friday 21 July 2006 07:14, Cormac Lawler wrote:
> On 7/20/06, Anthere <Anthere9@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > In the past few days, I have been considering the three levels, data,
> > information and knowledge. Most of our projects are actually providing
> > "information". Wiktionary is rather providing "data". Wikibooks is
> > sometimes providing "information" but it is sometimes wandering in
> > "knowledge". Wikiversity will definitly entering the field of knowledge
> > and this is what worried editors the most (the teaching part). Still, if
> > I look well, the Foundation is claiming bringing knowledge. I see no
> > reason why this project should not be started.
> >
> > Ant
>
> Thanks Anthere,
>
> that's a really good way of putting it. The way I've always seen
> Wikiversity is that we are not simply providing information, but
> generating knowledge. That, after all, is what learning is all about.
> I would argue (and have done) that generating knowledge and learning
> is an incidental part of what we do as participants on any Wikimedia
> project - it's just that we make this an explicit aspect of
> Wikiversity.
>
> To backtrack slightly, when we got going on the modified Wikiversity
> proposal, in the wake of the community vote and the board
> non-approval, we were at a loss to tie together the interests/needs of
> several in the community who wanted to teach courses, and the board's
> recommendation that we "exclude online courses". Our solution is to
> primarily host content, while also providing for learning
> communities/study groups around this content - networks/spaces for
> asking and answering questions, or posing and solving problems.
> However, I think in order to be sustainable, Wikiversity will need to
> put a primacy on its content, as was suggested by Daniel (Mav). We
> simply do not know how communities will work - this is an experimental
> side to Wikiversity, which could fail, though I anticipate it to be
> its central success :-)
>
I'm truly fighting with myself to find the right way to get what is in my
brain into your brains, most efficiently, and vice versa. I began editing
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ermeyers last night to try to begin
informing you of what I'm actually trying to do with The Perl Wiki, in
"particular."

This "particular" wiki is going to be the central wiki for the "particular"
community (a global community), and it's "particular" system and it's
"particular" methods are going to fully integrate with everything "generally"
available from Wikimedia to the fullest extent possible. The "particular"
community is going to be the main source of "particular" Expertise, Data,
Information and Knowledge, and the "particular" community will have its
Teachers and its Learners at its "particular" University tied right into
Wikiversity and its extremely valuable "general" Educational Resources. If
this "particular" University manages to get itself accredited (etc.), in the
future, on its own, then that will be an absolutely great thing to happen for
that "particular" community.

About The Perl Wiki, or "The Glue Wiki":

This central Wiki is going to be like "The Free Encyclopedia" of Perl.

This central Wiki is going to be like "The Free Dictionary" of Perl.

This central Wiki is going to be like "The Free Library" of Perl.

This central Wiki is going to be like "The Free Debate Forum" of Perl.

PAST: This central Wiki is going to tell "The Perl Legacy."

PRESENT: This central Wiki is going to tell "The Perl Story."

FUTURE: This central Wiki is going to lead "The Perl Future."

This central Wiki has an free and open Steering Committee forum.

How will a "particular" community work everyone? That's why I originally came
here to ask my "particular" questions to the Wikimedia experts on
foundation-l, just so that I begin prototyping one for my own "particular"
community interests.

I hope this helps you Cormac.:)

Eric

>
> Cormac
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On 7/21/06, Eric R. Meyers <ermeyers@adelphia.net> wrote:
> Hi Cormac and Anthere,
>
> First, I'd like to amplify what I wrote earlier:
> > ... bring this good thing to fruition, or just kill it outright, so that it
> , KNOWLEDGE,
> > can find a better home in this world.
>

Yes, that's what we're doing right now, and have been doing all along.
I believe we're close to actually setting it up now - bringing it to
fruition.


[snip]

> I'm truly fighting with myself to find the right way to get what is in my
> brain into your brains, most efficiently, and vice versa.


If you find a way of doing that, it may be an addition to Wikiversity,
or possibly even a way of making you rich :-)


> I began editing
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Ermeyers last night to try to begin
> informing you of what I'm actually trying to do with The Perl Wiki, in
> "particular."
>
> This "particular" wiki is going to be the central wiki for the "particular"
> community (a global community), and it's "particular" system and it's
> "particular" methods are going to fully integrate with everything "generally"
> available from Wikimedia to the fullest extent possible. The "particular"
> community is going to be the main source of "particular" Expertise, Data,
> Information and Knowledge, and the "particular" community will have its
> Teachers and its Learners at its "particular" University tied right into
> Wikiversity and its extremely valuable "general" Educational Resources. If
> this "particular" University manages to get itself accredited (etc.), in the
> future, on its own, then that will be an absolutely great thing to happen for
> that "particular" community.
>
> About The Perl Wiki, or "The Glue Wiki":
>
> This central Wiki is going to be like "The Free Encyclopedia" of Perl.
>
> This central Wiki is going to be like "The Free Dictionary" of Perl.
>
> This central Wiki is going to be like "The Free Library" of Perl.
>
> This central Wiki is going to be like "The Free Debate Forum" of Perl.
>
> PAST: This central Wiki is going to tell "The Perl Legacy."
>
> PRESENT: This central Wiki is going to tell "The Perl Story."
>
> FUTURE: This central Wiki is going to lead "The Perl Future."
>
> This central Wiki has an free and open Steering Committee forum.
>
> How will a "particular" community work everyone? That's why I originally came
> here to ask my "particular" questions to the Wikimedia experts on
> foundation-l, just so that I begin prototyping one for my own "particular"
> community interests.
>
> I hope this helps you Cormac.:)
>
> Eric
>

It does help somewhat, yes. I wish you all the best with your
community on Wikia, and look forward to seeing how you can collaborate
with Wikiversity. We will need to draw from many strands of expertise
(not _only_ university professors) to make this work - and your
community should be able to contribute. I would also like to see
Wikiversity facilitating and entering into mutually beneficial
collaborations with people and institutions not connected with
Wikimedia. However, as you can imagine, my focus right now is on what
we need to do in order to build Wikiversity itself to the best it can
possibly be.

Thanks,
Cormac
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