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I agree with Andre. Nor the Dutch foundation, nor the Dutch association has
a broad support in Dutch community. The community has hardly any influence
to the foundation and the association. A lot of users are complaining.

The foundation and the association could do a great job for our project, but
as soon as they get any special power to the encyclopedia, there will come
troubles.

So, I have no problem with the foundation and the association, but they
shouldn't have any power to the Wikimedia Projects and they shouldn't have
any official position within WMF.

Johan Bos (nl:Jcb)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik Moeller" <eloquence@gmail.com>
To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:29 PM
Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter


> I'm forwarding this to foundation-l as it seems to be the more
> relevant list. Thread so far at:
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-April/thread.html#44205
>
> Erik
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Andre Engels <andreengels@gmail.com>
> Date: Apr 18, 2006 4:52 PM
> Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter
> To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org
>
>
> I think I speak for most of the Dutch Wikipedians if I say:
> * Neither the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation (Stichting Wikimedia
> Nederland) nor the Dutch Wikimedia Association (Vereniging Wikimedia
> Nederland) has the right to influence the content and procedures of
> the Dutch Wikipedia
> * The board of neither has any formal special position on the Dutch
> Wikipedia
> * At least the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation should not be allowed to
> speak in name of the Dutch Wikipedia
> * The Wikimedia Foundation is hereby requested not to give the Dutch
> Wikimedia Foundation the status of chapter or any similar status
>
> Thank you.
>
> --
> Andre Engels, andreengels@gmail.com
> ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels
> _______________________________________________
> Wikipedia-l mailing list
> Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Hi

Which are the reasons why the Foundation and the association have little
support ? People ? Bylaws ? Goals ?

Ant

Johan Bos wrote:
> I agree with Andre. Nor the Dutch foundation, nor the Dutch association has
> a broad support in Dutch community. The community has hardly any influence
> to the foundation and the association. A lot of users are complaining.
>
> The foundation and the association could do a great job for our project, but
> as soon as they get any special power to the encyclopedia, there will come
> troubles.
>
> So, I have no problem with the foundation and the association, but they
> shouldn't have any power to the Wikimedia Projects and they shouldn't have
> any official position within WMF.
>
> Johan Bos (nl:Jcb)
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Erik Moeller" <eloquence@gmail.com>
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:29 PM
> Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter
>
>
>
>>I'm forwarding this to foundation-l as it seems to be the more
>>relevant list. Thread so far at:
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-April/thread.html#44205
>>
>>Erik
>>
>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>From: Andre Engels <andreengels@gmail.com>
>>Date: Apr 18, 2006 4:52 PM
>>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter
>>To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org
>>
>>
>>I think I speak for most of the Dutch Wikipedians if I say:
>>* Neither the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation (Stichting Wikimedia
>>Nederland) nor the Dutch Wikimedia Association (Vereniging Wikimedia
>>Nederland) has the right to influence the content and procedures of
>>the Dutch Wikipedia
>>* The board of neither has any formal special position on the Dutch
>>Wikipedia
>>* At least the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation should not be allowed to
>>speak in name of the Dutch Wikipedia
>>* The Wikimedia Foundation is hereby requested not to give the Dutch
>>Wikimedia Foundation the status of chapter or any similar status
>>
>>Thank you.
>>
>>--
>>Andre Engels, andreengels@gmail.com
>>ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels
>>_______________________________________________
>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>_______________________________________________
>>foundation-l mailing list
>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>

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I think the biggest problem is that a certain group of Dutch moderators take
decisions for example to block someone for a long time, without being
interested in the opinion of the community. Something there is some admin
power abuse done by that specific group of moderators. Now the case is that
most members of that specific group of moderators are active in the
foundation. The processes to form the foundation are very unclear and most
of the important decisions have been taken during IRL meetings. Only people
who visited those meetings had any influence at the forming of the
foundation and the association.

Now the danger is that members of the Dutch foundation take certain
decisions, maybe under pressure of a Dutch judge or organisation or maybe
just there own POV. And then they use there power to force their decision.
Abuse like that will be a serious risk when de foundation would get any
power.

A lot of Dutch Wikipedians feel that de Dutch foundation is trying to take
over the power at our Wikipedia and they are grumbling about it.

Greetings,

Johan Bos

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anthere" <Anthere9@yahoo.com>
To: <foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter


> Hi
>
> Which are the reasons why the Foundation and the association have little
> support ? People ? Bylaws ? Goals ?
>
> Ant
>
> Johan Bos wrote:
>> I agree with Andre. Nor the Dutch foundation, nor the Dutch association
>> has
>> a broad support in Dutch community. The community has hardly any
>> influence
>> to the foundation and the association. A lot of users are complaining.
>>
>> The foundation and the association could do a great job for our project,
>> but
>> as soon as they get any special power to the encyclopedia, there will
>> come
>> troubles.
>>
>> So, I have no problem with the foundation and the association, but they
>> shouldn't have any power to the Wikimedia Projects and they shouldn't
>> have
>> any official position within WMF.
>>
>> Johan Bos (nl:Jcb)
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Erik Moeller" <eloquence@gmail.com>
>> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:29 PM
>> Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter
>>
>>
>>
>>>I'm forwarding this to foundation-l as it seems to be the more
>>>relevant list. Thread so far at:
>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-April/thread.html#44205
>>>
>>>Erik
>>>
>>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>From: Andre Engels <andreengels@gmail.com>
>>>Date: Apr 18, 2006 4:52 PM
>>>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter
>>>To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org
>>>
>>>
>>>I think I speak for most of the Dutch Wikipedians if I say:
>>>* Neither the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation (Stichting Wikimedia
>>>Nederland) nor the Dutch Wikimedia Association (Vereniging Wikimedia
>>>Nederland) has the right to influence the content and procedures of
>>>the Dutch Wikipedia
>>>* The board of neither has any formal special position on the Dutch
>>>Wikipedia
>>>* At least the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation should not be allowed to
>>>speak in name of the Dutch Wikipedia
>>>* The Wikimedia Foundation is hereby requested not to give the Dutch
>>>Wikimedia Foundation the status of chapter or any similar status
>>>
>>>Thank you.
>>>
>>>--
>>>Andre Engels, andreengels@gmail.com
>>>ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
>>>Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
>>>_______________________________________________
>>>foundation-l mailing list
>>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
>>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Hoi,
With some suprise I have seen from a distance a situation arise by
people who did not involve themselves during the setup of the Dutch
chapter. If anything I can vouch for the fact that one of the guiding
principles during the setup of the chapter was to maximise the
community aspect.

This idea of there being a group that secretly decide on "everyting
and the kitchen sink" is odd. The meetings have all been public. They
were all announced in advance and this suggestion is without a basis.
I am in an excellent position to vouch for this. I have been at
several of these meetings.

The cool thing is, a "vereniging" and even a "stichting" have been set
up. The preparations are being done so that there will be a
bank-account and that there can be members of the "vereniging". There
will be a meeting where members can do the member thing. I sincerely
hope that this will be an opportunity for people to meet in a
reasonable way and most definetly to start doing what a chapter is
ment for. Have an organisational background for the activities that we
want to do.

Thanks,
GerardM


On 4/18/06, Johan Bos <skatinghacker@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I think the biggest problem is that a certain group of Dutch moderators take
> decisions for example to block someone for a long time, without being
> interested in the opinion of the community. Something there is some admin
> power abuse done by that specific group of moderators. Now the case is that
> most members of that specific group of moderators are active in the
> foundation. The processes to form the foundation are very unclear and most
> of the important decisions have been taken during IRL meetings. Only people
> who visited those meetings had any influence at the forming of the
> foundation and the association.
>
> Now the danger is that members of the Dutch foundation take certain
> decisions, maybe under pressure of a Dutch judge or organisation or maybe
> just there own POV. And then they use there power to force their decision.
> Abuse like that will be a serious risk when de foundation would get any
> power.
>
> A lot of Dutch Wikipedians feel that de Dutch foundation is trying to take
> over the power at our Wikipedia and they are grumbling about it.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Johan Bos
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Anthere" <Anthere9@yahoo.com>
> To: <foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 10:48 PM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter
>
>
> > Hi
> >
> > Which are the reasons why the Foundation and the association have little
> > support ? People ? Bylaws ? Goals ?
> >
> > Ant
> >
> > Johan Bos wrote:
> >> I agree with Andre. Nor the Dutch foundation, nor the Dutch association
> >> has
> >> a broad support in Dutch community. The community has hardly any
> >> influence
> >> to the foundation and the association. A lot of users are complaining.
> >>
> >> The foundation and the association could do a great job for our project,
> >> but
> >> as soon as they get any special power to the encyclopedia, there will
> >> come
> >> troubles.
> >>
> >> So, I have no problem with the foundation and the association, but they
> >> shouldn't have any power to the Wikimedia Projects and they shouldn't
> >> have
> >> any official position within WMF.
> >>
> >> Johan Bos (nl:Jcb)
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "Erik Moeller" <eloquence@gmail.com>
> >> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l@wikimedia.org>
> >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:29 PM
> >> Subject: [Foundation-l] Fwd: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>I'm forwarding this to foundation-l as it seems to be the more
> >>>relevant list. Thread so far at:
> >>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/wikipedia-l/2006-April/thread.html#44205
> >>>
> >>>Erik
> >>>
> >>>---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >>>From: Andre Engels <andreengels@gmail.com>
> >>>Date: Apr 18, 2006 4:52 PM
> >>>Subject: [Wikipedia-l] Dutch chapter
> >>>To: wikipedia-l@wikimedia.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>I think I speak for most of the Dutch Wikipedians if I say:
> >>>* Neither the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation (Stichting Wikimedia
> >>>Nederland) nor the Dutch Wikimedia Association (Vereniging Wikimedia
> >>>Nederland) has the right to influence the content and procedures of
> >>>the Dutch Wikipedia
> >>>* The board of neither has any formal special position on the Dutch
> >>>Wikipedia
> >>>* At least the Dutch Wikimedia Foundation should not be allowed to
> >>>speak in name of the Dutch Wikipedia
> >>>* The Wikimedia Foundation is hereby requested not to give the Dutch
> >>>Wikimedia Foundation the status of chapter or any similar status
> >>>
> >>>Thank you.
> >>>
> >>>--
> >>>Andre Engels, andreengels@gmail.com
> >>>ICQ: 6260644 -- Skype: a_engels
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>Wikipedia-l mailing list
> >>>Wikipedia-l@Wikimedia.org
> >>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikipedia-l
> >>>_______________________________________________
> >>>foundation-l mailing list
> >>>foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> >>>http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> > http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Johan Bos schreef:
> I think the biggest problem is that a certain group of Dutch moderators take
> decisions for example to block someone for a long time, without being
> interested in the opinion of the community. Something there is some admin
> power abuse done by that specific group of moderators. Now the case is that
[cut]

The Dutch Wikipedia is not paradise. But you give the impression that
there is a group of admins on the Dutch Wikipedia who are behaving
strongly against the wishes of the community. And that those are now
also controlling those new chapters.

This is highly incorrect.

The Dutch Wikipedia is probably the only Wikipedia who has such easy and
extensive procedures who makes it nearly impossible for a group of
sysops to behave strongly against the wishes of the community.

There is a de-sysop procedure who every user can start against a sysop.
And this lead to vote of confidence where the sysop needs at least 75%
in favor to stay sysop.

Besides this is there also the reconfirmation procedure. *Every* sysop
needs to be re-confirmed every year. When there is objection made
against a sysop that sysop needs to survive a vote where the need also
to get 75% in favor.

Currently on the Dutch Wikipedia the 2th round of the re-confirmation
procedure of the 2th quarter the year is active.

Those are the sysops where there was made objections against in the 1th
round. The include "Oscar" and "Galwaygirl" who are key-members of the
board of those new Dutch Wikimedia chapters.

You can see in this vote the have large support from the community;
http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Regelingen_rond_moderatoren/Bevestiging_moderatorstatus


--
Contact: walter AT wikizine DOT org
Wikizine.org - news for and about the Wikimedia community

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I believe Walter is right when he contradicts that there is a group of
admins that act against the wishes of the community. When the first plans of
a Dutch Wikimedia organisation were made I contributed to the discussions on
the Dutch Wikimedia website and I went to a (the first?) meeting of people
who were interested. It soon occurred to me that some people had very strong
opinions on forming an organisation, and there was not many room for
dissident opinions. I got the impression that many people thought that the
organisation could/should have a say about the Dutch Wikipedia. I didn't
like the way some people (who were intent on becoming a board member) seemed
to force their opinion on others, so I backed out of the development of the
organisation. I believe that the way dissident opinions were handled is now
an important source of the fear of many Dutch Wikipedians that the Dutch
foundation and association (but mostly the foundation, since that is the
least democratic) will not listen to the Dutch community.

-Fruggo

Walter Vermeir schreef:

>
> > I think the biggest problem is that a certain group of Dutch moderators
> take
> > decisions for example to block someone for a long time, without being
> > interested in the opinion of the community. Something there is some
> admin
> > power abuse done by that specific group of moderators. Now the case is
> that
> [cut]
>
> The Dutch Wikipedia is not paradise. But you give the impression that
> there is a group of admins on the Dutch Wikipedia who are behaving
> strongly against the wishes of the community. And that those are now
> also controlling those new chapters.
>
> This is highly incorrect.
>
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Fruggo wrote:

>I believe Walter is right when he contradicts that there is a group of
>admins that act against the wishes of the community. When the first plans of
>a Dutch Wikimedia organisation were made I contributed to the discussions on
>the Dutch Wikimedia website and I went to a (the first?) meeting of people
>who were interested. It soon occurred to me that some people had very strong
>opinions on forming an organisation, and there was not many room for
>dissident opinions. I got the impression that many people thought that the
>organisation could/should have a say about the Dutch Wikipedia. I didn't
>like the way some people (who were intent on becoming a board member) seemed
>to force their opinion on others, so I backed out of the development of the
>organisation. I believe that the way dissident opinions were handled is now
>an important source of the fear of many Dutch Wikipedians that the Dutch
>foundation and association (but mostly the foundation, since that is the
>least democratic) will not listen to the Dutch community.
>
>-Fruggo
>
>
>
I totally agree with Fruggo here.

Waerth/Walter van Kalken
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i agree with walter too.

fruggo is rightly referring to the fact that unfortunately, in the beginning
of the formation of the dutch chapter, there have been attempts by two dutch
wikipedians (both currently no member of the boards) to create a foundation
only, without any involvment of the dutch communities. both ronald and i
recently found out that both of us had been asked to participate in this. at
the time, in fact both of us independently (since we weren't informed about
attempts to persuade the other), refused to do so, i might as well say:
literally prevented this.

in 5 meetings, see
http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Ontmoeten/Plaatsgevonden the ideas
concerning the founding of the dutch chapter took their final form. these
meetings have been open to everyone and have been announced well before they
actually took place, and were each attended by various wikians, both from
holland and from belgium. it was finally agreed upon by those present, that
2 organizations would suit the dutch situation best, and would give maximum
possibilities of being active and to apply for funding in holland; both an
association (see: http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Statuten_VWN_%28en%29 and a
foundation, see: http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Statuten_SWN_%28en%29 were
founded - see also http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Statuten/Reglement_FAQ,
translation not complete yet).

since the creation of these, negative comments have bursted from a limited
number of wikipedians, rather loudly advocating their mistrust in the
chapter and the people involved. given the rapidity of their new comments,
in combination with the spreading of false rumours and strange notions (for
example, someone falsely stated that the statutes have never been published
- i provided the links here, histories of, if necessary also: earlier, dutch
versions are available thanks to the mediawiki software; another comment was
that any sysop holding a position in the chapter would have a position with
too much power, and conflicting interests), it actually gives the impression
of a concerted action, since end of march...

maybe fruggo is right in suggesting that the current board and chapter is
suffering from the mistrust that those two people that have tried to
organize a chapter before, without any involvement or even knowledge thereof
by the dutch communities, has left behind.

only solid information can replace rumours however, so we are currently
working at updating nl.wikimedia.org, trusting that everyone, at least the
imho current majority of dutch people that support and trust the chapter,
and the people having organized it, will stay informed.

oscar

On 4/19/06, Fruggo <fruggo@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I believe Walter is right when he contradicts that there is a group of
> admins that act against the wishes of the community. When the first plans
> of
> a Dutch Wikimedia organisation were made I contributed to the discussions
> on
> the Dutch Wikimedia website and I went to a (the first?) meeting of people
> who were interested. It soon occurred to me that some people had very
> strong
> opinions on forming an organisation, and there was not many room for
> dissident opinions. I got the impression that many people thought that the
> organisation could/should have a say about the Dutch Wikipedia. I didn't
> like the way some people (who were intent on becoming a board member)
> seemed
> to force their opinion on others, so I backed out of the development of
> the
> organisation. I believe that the way dissident opinions were handled is
> now
> an important source of the fear of many Dutch Wikipedians that the Dutch
> foundation and association (but mostly the foundation, since that is the
> least democratic) will not listen to the Dutch community.
>
> -Fruggo
>
> Walter Vermeir schreef:
>
> >
> > > I think the biggest problem is that a certain group of Dutch
> moderators
> > take
> > > decisions for example to block someone for a long time, without being
> > > interested in the opinion of the community. Something there is some
> > admin
> > > power abuse done by that specific group of moderators. Now the case is
>
> > that
> > [cut]
> >
> > The Dutch Wikipedia is not paradise. But you give the impression that
> > there is a group of admins on the Dutch Wikipedia who are behaving
> > strongly against the wishes of the community. And that those are now
> > also controlling those new chapters.
> >
> > This is highly incorrect.
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@wikimedia.org
> http://mail.wikipedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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On 24-apr-2006, at 10:22, oscar wrote:
in 5 meetings, see
http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:Ontmoeten/Plaatsgevonden the
ideas
concerning the founding of the dutch chapter took their final form.
these
meetings have been open to everyone and have been announced well
before they
actually took place, and were each attended by various wikians, both
from
holland and from belgium. it was finally agreed upon by those
present, that
2 organizations would suit the dutch situation best, and would give
maximum
possibilities of being active and to apply for funding in holland;
both an
association (see: http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Statuten_VWN_%28en%29
and a
foundation, see: http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Statuten_SWN_%28en%29 were
founded - see also http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Statuten/Reglement_FAQ,
translation not complete yet).

since the creation of these, negative comments have bursted from a
limited
number of wikipedians, rather loudly advocating their mistrust in the
chapter and the people involved.

etc. etc. etc.

I am afraid Oscar is misleading the members of this list again.

1) At first GerardM wanted a Dutch foundation with raising money for
the Florida based foundation as its sole purpose.
However, stirred by a remark by Jimbo, a lot of Dutch users wanted an
organization that had social aspects as well and could organize
meetings and engage in other activities, all democratically
controlled. For that a Dutch association was better. It is more
democratic, and would therefore suit us better, as the wiki's are
more or less democratic too.
On the other hand RonaldB had this idea that a foundation would be
better at raising money.

At the meeting I attended (November 11th, 2005) RonaldB kept pushing
and pushing his idea until everybody got bored, and we finally gave
in and decided there would be a Dutch association, as was the wish of
a majority of users, *plus* a Dutch foundation as was the wish of
less than a handful of users.
The foundation *would be created by the association*, ensuring a
somewhat democratic process. Oscar was very much in favor of that.

Now this foundation apparently has no longer the sole purpose of
raising money. It will be the main organization, together with a
toothless and money lacking association for the social aspects. The
interaction of the two organizations is unclear to me, but apparently
the association will be more or less at the mercy - at least
financially speaking - of the foundation.
As this is not what the Dutch users intended, a lot of them - not
just a small group as Oscar is suggesting here - feel betrayed.

2) Also the meetings were not all that open. For instance: the
meeting after the one I attended would be for the new board-members
only. At the wish of one of them they also decided in a split-second
that they would constitute themselves out of a group of would-be
board-members, *without an election or other democratic process*.
As I felt me being in a board together with GerardM would probably be
not a good idea (Muijz winks at Jimbo), I decided to quit the process
there. Much to my surprise I later on discovered there had been
several meetings after that one, and RonaldB had pushed there his
idea of creating a foundation *without* any democratic procedure at all.
(And RonaldB got his undemocratic way, again.)

To me the whole affair is a classic example of board-members not
listening to the community they are to represent. They rather feel
the users should listen to them. (!)

Returning the complaints by simply accusing the Dutch community, only
leads to more mistrust and more complaints - as always. And the pure
speculations of a board member about the nature of the complaints,
and about concerted action - as far as I am aware of there is none -
won't stop those either.

What also did not help the process was all information being put on a
special wiki and to be discussed solely *there*. The reason being
that Media-NL was and should not be limited to the Pedia alone.
While this is theoretically true, it only served as an extra barrier
between the new board and the users. The Dutch community is simply
too small for a lot of wiki's; our WikiNews for instance is more or
less braindead and the other projects don't flourish either. De
facto, Wikipedia-NL is the only flourishing community here. There
probably would have been less complaints and less mistrust had the
Dutch board-members not so strictly adhered to their rules - even
refusing to discuss matters at the vilage-pump of Wikipedia-NL.


+++ Muijz


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