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Hoi,
I started reading and find that I should not have bothered... So if you have
time to waste, by all means read this.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/9/1 Gregory Kohs <thekohser@gmail.com>

> Being that it was a topic of rousing discussion here last week, Wikimedians
> may be interested in a brief summary of the Omidyar/Wikimedia/Wikia
> connection, as authored by me and published by the non-profit, Internet
> Review Corporation:
>
> http://akahele.org/2009/08/omidyar-venturing-out/
>
> --
> Gregory Kohs
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>
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On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hoi,
> I started reading


I'm sorry, did you have something to say that *wasn't* a waste of time? I
did read it, and unlike your e-mail it provides a useful perspective in a
large and complicated issue.
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On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 5:23 PM, Brian<Brian.Mingus@colorado.edu> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 3:14 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hoi,
>> I started reading
>
>
> I'm sorry, did you have something to say that *wasn't* a waste of time? I
> did read it, and unlike your e-mail it provides a useful perspective in a
> large and complicated issue.
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

I started reading Gerard's e-mail and then find that I should not have
bothered.

In all seriousness, allow me to echo Brian on this. It may not be your
opinion on the matter, but Gregory is certainly allowed to share his
and doesn't need to suffer a berating on foundation-l for expressing it.

-Chad

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Once again I have to ask, this time in a different forum... Is there any
procedure to get those vicious personal attacks taken out of the publicly
viewable history?
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On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Gregory Kohs<thekohser@gmail.com> wrote:
> Being that it was a topic of rousing discussion here last week, Wikimedians
> may be interested in a brief summary of the Omidyar/Wikimedia/Wikia
> connection, as authored by me and published by the non-profit, Internet
> Review Corporation:
>
> http://akahele.org/2009/08/omidyar-venturing-out/

Thanks Greg. This is a useful and fairly even-handed piece. I feel
like your nitpicking of whether the seat was "bought" or whether there
is a "tie" is (pardon the phrase, literature people) just semantics.
What Halprin essentially asserted in the interview with Andrew Lih was
that the grant was not conditional on Halprin being seated on the
board (or retaining his seat after his current appoint ends at the end
of the year). He didn't deny that, in a social rather than
contractual sense, he was considered for a seat on the board because
of the grant negotiations; in fact, he basically said that he and/or
Omidyar Network expressed interest in a seat on the board because of
the grant negotiations, and as you show, that's pretty typical of the
way that Omidyar Network interacts with non-profits.

I don't see anything that either Halprin or WMF has said about seat
and the grant as evidence of duplicity.

And I dare say that you would avoid the word "bought" too if both your
sister and your $2 million benefactor thought that word had misleading
negative connotations.

-Sage

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On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Sage Ross
<ragesoss+wikipedia@gmail.com<ragesoss%2Bwikipedia@gmail.com>
> wrote:

> [Halprin] didn't deny that, in a social rather than
> contractual sense, he was considered for a seat on the board because
> of the grant negotiations; in fact, he basically said that he and/or
> Omidyar Network expressed interest in a seat on the board because of
> the grant negotiations, and as you show, that's pretty typical of the
> way that Omidyar Network interacts with non-profits.
>

He said that? Where has Halprin or anyone with knowledge of the appointment
said that Halprin was considered because of the grant negotiations? Where
has anyone even acknowledged that there were grant "negotiations"? What was
being negotiated? What were the other offers?
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On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Anthony<wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 7:15 PM, Sage Ross
> <ragesoss+wikipedia@gmail.com<ragesoss%2Bwikipedia@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>
>> [Halprin] didn't deny that, in a social rather than
>> contractual sense, he was considered for a seat on the board because
>> of the grant negotiations; in fact, he basically said that he and/or
>> Omidyar Network expressed interest in a seat on the board because of
>> the grant negotiations, and as you show, that's pretty typical of the
>> way that Omidyar Network interacts with non-profits.
>>
>
> He said that?  Where has Halprin or anyone with knowledge of the appointment
> said that Halprin was considered because of the grant negotiations?  Where
> has anyone even acknowledged that there were grant "negotiations"?  What was
> being negotiated?  What were the other offers?

See http://wikipediaweekly.org/2009/08/28/episode-82-matt-halprin-interview/
and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikipediaWeekly/Wikimania_2009/Halprin
(transcript of one section of the interview).

Halprin said: "But I think that at this point in time, I think what
Sue would say is, that even if Omidyar Network hadn't gotten involved,
once she got to know me that she would have actually said: hey, this
is someone who could be helpful for us at this point in time." What's
implicit is that Omidyar Network did, in fact, get involved and that's
why Foundation people got to know him well enough to decide that he
should be added to the board.

What was being negotiated was terms of the grant, at the least; as the
Q&A says, there are targets that WMF has to fulfill in receive the
full grant. From the interview, it also seems that discussions were
geared toward figuring out how much WMF and Omidyar Network had in
common in terms of goals and whether Halprin's expertise was needed or
would be helpful on the board. And I imagine they discussed what
kinds of things the WMF might want to spend a few extra million on.

-Sage

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On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:18 PM, Sage Ross
<ragesoss+wikipedia@gmail.com<ragesoss%2Bwikipedia@gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 7:26 PM, Anthony<wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> > He said that? Where has Halprin or anyone with knowledge of the
> appointment
> > said that Halprin was considered because of the grant negotiations?
> Where
> > has anyone even acknowledged that there were grant "negotiations"? What
> was
> > being negotiated? What were the other offers?
>
> See
> http://wikipediaweekly.org/2009/08/28/episode-82-matt-halprin-interview/
> and
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikipediaWeekly/Wikimania_2009/Halprin
> (transcript of one section of the interview).
>
> Halprin said: "But I think that at this point in time, I think what
> Sue would say is, that even if Omidyar Network hadn't gotten involved,
> once she got to know me that she would have actually said: hey, this
> is someone who could be helpful for us at this point in time." What's
> implicit is that Omidyar Network did, in fact, get involved and that's
> why Foundation people got to know him well enough to decide that he
> should be added to the board.
>

The timeline is unclear to me. I was under the impression that Halprin met
the board before the grant was discussed. To say that "Halprin was
considered because of the grant negotiations" implies that he wouldn't have
been considered were there no grant negotiations. To me Halprin is saying
the opposite in that quote above.

If Omidyar Networks had not offered a grant, but offered to put Halprin on
the board, would the board have accepted it? I don't see anyone with
knowledge of the situation saying no.
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On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Anthony<wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:

>
> If Omidyar Networks had not offered a grant, but offered to put Halprin on
> the board, would the board have accepted it?  I don't see anyone with
> knowledge of the situation saying no.

I had the impression that WMF had been courting Omidyar Network for
some time; it's hard for me to imagine that a potential grant wasn't
part of the context right from the beginning. But indeed, we're
mostly speculating here.

-Sage

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On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:51 PM, Sage Ross
<ragesoss+wikipedia@gmail.com<ragesoss%2Bwikipedia@gmail.com>
> wrote:

> On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 8:41 PM, Anthony<wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> > If Omidyar Networks had not offered a grant, but offered to put Halprin
> on
> > the board, would the board have accepted it? I don't see anyone with
> > knowledge of the situation saying no.
>
> I had the impression that WMF had been courting Omidyar Network for
> some time; it's hard for me to imagine that a potential grant wasn't
> part of the context right from the beginning. But indeed, we're
> mostly speculating here.


From a board report: "On August 15, invitations went out for the San
Francisco Funders' Briefing to be held at Kapor Enterprises on September 23,
2008. Current confirmed guests include representatives from the Stanton,
Moore and Gates Foundations as well as representatives from the Omidyar
Network, and individual prospective donors."

The Q&A says "The two organizations have been talking since shortly after
the Wikimedia Foundation relocated to San Francisco from St. Petersburg,
Florida in January 2008."

I've reread what you said, though: "he basically said that he and/or Omidyar
Network expressed interest in a seat on the board because of the grant
negotiations". I guess that's fairly safe to say.

And on that, I guess my quota for the day for this thread is filled.
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On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Anthony<wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> Once again I have to ask, this time in a different forum...  Is there any
> procedure to get those vicious personal attacks taken out of the publicly
> viewable history?

I am gobsmacked that you are asking this here and saying that you
haven't received answers when you asked in a different forum (which
forum?).

Removal of vicious personal attacks depends on the nature of them.

If they are potentially libelous, suppression[1] can be used. In
other cases, "poor mans oversight"[2] is often used by admins and
oversight volunteers.

1. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Oversight
2. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Poor_man%27s_oversight

--
John Vandenberg

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On Tue, Sep 1, 2009 at 10:14 PM, John Vandenberg<jayvdb@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am gobsmacked that you are asking this here and saying that you
> haven't received answers when you asked in a different forum (which
> forum?).
>
> Removal of vicious personal attacks depends on the nature of them.
>
> If they are potentially libelous, suppression[1] can be used.  In
> other cases, "poor mans oversight"[2] is often used by admins and
> oversight volunteers.
>
> 1. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Oversight
> 2. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Poor_man%27s_oversight
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>


How do those apply to a mailing list?

Nathan

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On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 12:17 PM, Nathan<nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> How do those apply to a mailing list?

Eh? Anthony is talking about removing messages from the mailing list archive?

I assumed he meant the Wikipedia diffs that are mentioned in the
article at http://akahele.org/2009/08/omidyar-venturing-out/

Hopefully he will be more clear about the vicious personal attacks he
is referring to.

--
John Vandenberg

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Hoi,
This is the Foundation-l not the Wikipedia-en list. Applying policies of one
project is rather arbitrary.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/9/2 John Vandenberg <jayvdb@gmail.com>

> On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 9:06 AM, Anthony<wikimail@inbox.org> wrote:
> > Once again I have to ask, this time in a different forum... Is there any
> > procedure to get those vicious personal attacks taken out of the publicly
> > viewable history?
>
> I am gobsmacked that you are asking this here and saying that you
> haven't received answers when you asked in a different forum (which
> forum?).
>
> Removal of vicious personal attacks depends on the nature of them.
>
> If they are potentially libelous, suppression[1] can be used. In
> other cases, "poor mans oversight"[2] is often used by admins and
> oversight volunteers.
>
> 1. https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Oversight
> 2.
> https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Wikipedia:Poor_man%27s_oversight
>
> --
> John Vandenberg
>
> _______________________________________________
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>
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On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 4:02 PM, Gerard
Meijssen<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> This is the Foundation-l not the Wikipedia-en list. Applying policies of one
> project is rather arbitrary.

I (correctly) assumed that Anthony needed guidance to the oversight-l
list to deal with an En.Wp problem, so I pointed him to the applicable
policy page on the applicable project.

I could have pointed him to the meta policy page, but that page is a
lot of unnecessary reading for someone who wants to know how to
request oversight on En.Wp.

--
John Vandenberg

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