Mailing List Archive

Hoi,
There is no procedure because what comes closest to a consensus amount to a
lot of work. Work that does not forward our mission one iota. The fact that
people vote and comment is not that special, people do ... if they vote that
I will wear a tutu at Wikimania and a consensus says that I should, I still
have to volunteer to wear that tutu. It is the same as voting for a bug in
bugzilla. The votes are not considered so why bother ?

As to the language committee, it does only consider new requests for
projects ... if it were to expand its services it would be in indicating
what issues exist that deal with language support that would make a
difference to the usability of our software. It would not be drinking from
the poisoned chalice that is closing projects. The closest we came to
expressing an opinion is that we would prefer the content of a to be closed
project to be imported into the Incubator. This is a not good for Incubator
because they get dead wood loaded into their project ....

So all in all in my opinion it is best to leave these things as is and
ignore requests for closure.
Thanks,
GerardM

2009/8/20 Huib! <Abigor@forgotten-beauty.com>

> Hello,
>
> I noticed that there are still a lot of open request for closure on Meta
> so I decided to contact a LangCom member (Robin) asking him about how
> and when the projects will be closed or when the requests will be
> closed, but I recieved a answer I didn't expected.
>
> Robin told me there was no policy (
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Closure_of_WMF_projects ) about the
> closure of projects so the request can stay open for always.
>
>
> I think its kind of strange that we people can make a request, that
> there are people who are voting and spending there time commenting on
> the request or even worse have stress because there project could be
> closed but the request will never be closed.
>
>
> Is there a way to change this with a new policy, or with a different com
> for the closure, because this seems to me a waste of time for a lot of
> people, people can stop editting projects just because the think the
> project will be closed.
>
> At this moment there are 27 request for projects to be closed, (
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects ) I think
> 50% is a easy closure for keep or close. The oldest project is from 2007
> that would mean its still open after 2 years :/
>
> --
> *Huib Laurens*
>
> Web: Forgotten-beauty.com <http://www.forgotten-beauty.com.com/>
> Email: Abigor@forgotten-beauty.com <mailto:abigor@forgotten-beauty.com>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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2009/8/20 Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>

> <snip> if they vote that
> I will wear a tutu at Wikimania and a consensus says that I should,<snip>


one vote against! Please not...
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On Fri, Aug 21, 2009 at 1:30 PM, effe iets
anders<effeietsanders@gmail.com> wrote:

>> <snip> if they vote that
>> I will wear a tutu at Wikimania and a consensus says that I should,<snip>
>
>
> one vote against! Please not...

'''Strong keep''' - We can uppload pics to Commons and add to
[[ballet]]. I've heard he has nice knees. [[User:Pirouette]]
'''Delete''' - patent nonsense. [[User:NoNonsense]]
'''Comment''' - Will the sockpuppet be wearing one too? [[User:GuardianAngel]]
'''Comment''' - I have mentioned this in the Signpost newsroom. [[User:Journo]]
'''Weak support''' - it depends on what colour it is. Strongly support
if pink. [[User:HamNEggs]]

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effe iets anders wrote:
> 2009/8/20 Gerard Meijssen
>
>> <snip> if they vote that
>> I will wear a tutu at Wikimania and a consensus says that I should,<snip>
>>
> one vote against! Please not...
Gee! I saw that, and was about to support the motion if it comes up.

Ec

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First, if the conclusion is that no procedure exists, a notice should be put on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects stating this so that peoples' expectations are appropriately managed.

Second, is that correct? Looking at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_Herero_Wikipedia it seems that there certainly was a procedure in the past where articles were shifted back into the Incubator.

Most importantly, should there be a procedure? Keeping projects open is a drain on resources, such as removing vandalism. There is a level of activity below which the positive benefits of the project are outweighed by the drain, although it's clearly not worth closing a project if the effort to do this is not a worthwhile investment.

Do you need particular user rights to action such requests?

----- "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> From: "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Thursday, 20 August, 2009 19:01:39 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Closure of projects
>
> Hoi,
> There is no procedure because what comes closest to a consensus amount to a
> lot of work. Work that does not forward our mission one iota. The fact that
> people vote and comment is not that special, people do ... if they vote that
> I will wear a tutu at Wikimania and a consensus says that I should, I still
> have to volunteer to wear that tutu. It is the same as voting for a bug in
> bugzilla. The votes are not considered so why bother ?
>
> As to the language committee, it does only consider new requests for
> projects ... if it were to expand its services it would be in indicating
> what issues exist that deal with language support that would make a
> difference to the usability of our software. It would not be drinking from
> the poisoned chalice that is closing projects. The closest we came to
> expressing an opinion is that we would prefer the content of a to be closed
> project to be imported into the Incubator. This is a not good for Incubator
> because they get dead wood loaded into their project ....
>
> So all in all in my opinion it is best to leave these things as is and
> ignore requests for closure.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> 2009/8/20 Huib! <Abigor@forgotten-beauty.com>
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > I noticed that there are still a lot of open request for closure on Meta
> > so I decided to contact a LangCom member (Robin) asking him about how
> > and when the projects will be closed or when the requests will be
> > closed, but I recieved a answer I didn't expected.
> >
> > Robin told me there was no policy (
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Closure_of_WMF_projects ) about the
> > closure of projects so the request can stay open for always.
> >
> >
> > I think its kind of strange that we people can make a request, that
> > there are people who are voting and spending there time commenting on
> > the request or even worse have stress because there project could be
> > closed but the request will never be closed.
> >
> >
> > Is there a way to change this with a new policy, or with a different com
> > for the closure, because this seems to me a waste of time for a lot of
> > people, people can stop editting projects just because the think the
> > project will be closed.
> >
> > At this moment there are 27 request for projects to be closed, (
> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects ) I think
> > 50% is a easy closure for keep or close. The oldest project is from 2007
> > that would mean its still open after 2 years :/
> >
> > --
> > *Huib Laurens*
> >
> > Web: Forgotten-beauty.com <http://www.forgotten-beauty.com.com/>
> > Email: Abigor@forgotten-beauty.com <mailto:abigor@forgotten-beauty.com>
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Andrew
Turvey<andrewrturvey@googlemail.com> wrote:
> First, if the conclusion is that no procedure exists, a notice should be put on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects stating this so that peoples' expectations are appropriately managed.
>
> Second, is that correct? Looking at http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_Herero_Wikipedia it seems that there certainly was a procedure in the past where articles were shifted back into the Incubator.
>
> Most importantly, should there be a procedure? Keeping projects open is a drain on resources, such as removing vandalism. There is a level of activity below which the positive benefits of the project are outweighed by the drain, although it's clearly not worth closing a project if the effort to do this is not a worthwhile investment.
>
> Do you need particular user rights to action such requests?
>
> ----- "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
>> From: "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
>> To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, 20 August, 2009 19:01:39 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland, Portugal
>> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Closure of projects
>>
>> Hoi,
>> There is no procedure because what comes closest to a consensus amount to a
>> lot of work. Work that does not forward our mission one iota. The fact that
>> people vote and comment is not that special, people do ... if they vote that
>> I will wear a tutu at Wikimania and a consensus says that I should, I still
>> have to volunteer to wear that tutu. It is the same as voting for a bug in
>> bugzilla. The votes are not considered so why bother ?
>>
>> As to the language committee, it does only consider new requests for
>> projects ... if it were to expand its services it would be in indicating
>> what issues exist that deal with language support that would make a
>> difference to the usability of our software. It would not be drinking from
>> the poisoned chalice that is closing projects. The closest we came to
>> expressing an opinion is that we would prefer the content of a to be closed
>> project to be imported into the Incubator. This is a not good for Incubator
>> because they get dead wood loaded into their project ....
>>
>> So all in all in my opinion it is best to leave these things as is and
>> ignore requests for closure.
>> Thanks,
>> GerardM
>>
>> 2009/8/20 Huib! <Abigor@forgotten-beauty.com>
>>
>> > Hello,
>> >
>> > I noticed that there are still a lot of open request for closure on Meta
>> > so I decided to contact a LangCom member (Robin) asking him about how
>> > and when the projects will be closed or when the requests will be
>> > closed, but I recieved a answer I didn't expected.
>> >
>> > Robin told me there was no policy (
>> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Closure_of_WMF_projects ) about the
>> > closure of projects so the request can stay open for always.
>> >
>> >
>> > I think its kind of strange that we people can make a request, that
>> > there are people who are voting and spending there time commenting on
>> > the request or even worse have stress because there project could be
>> > closed but the request will never be closed.
>> >
>> >
>> > Is there a way to change this with a new policy, or with a different com
>> > for the closure, because this seems to me a waste of time for a lot of
>> > people, people can stop editting projects just because the think the
>> > project will be closed.
>> >
>> > At this moment there are 27 request for projects to be closed, (
>> > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects ) I think
>> > 50% is a easy closure for keep or close. The oldest project is from 2007
>> > that would mean its still open after 2 years :/
>> >
>> > --
>> > *Huib Laurens*
>> >
>> > Web: Forgotten-beauty.com <http://www.forgotten-beauty.com.com/>
>> > Email: Abigor@forgotten-beauty.com <mailto:abigor@forgotten-beauty.com>
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > foundation-l mailing list
>> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> >
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

The only user requirement for this is that a shell user has to
perform the actual decision. The community makes the decisions
about opening/closing new projects, and the sysadmins carry
out the actual task.

-Chad

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2009/8/24 Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com>:
> The only user requirement for this is that a shell user has to
> perform the actual decision. The community makes the decisions
> about opening/closing new projects, and the sysadmins carry
> out the actual task.

But what is "the community" (the community of the project being
closed? the meta community? the Wikimedia community as a whole? the
Wikimedia community minus the community of the project being closed?
etc.) and what is required for something to be considered a "decision"
(majority? supermajority? consensus? unanimity?)?

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On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Thomas Dalton<thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/8/24 Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com>:
>> The only user requirement for this is that a shell user has to
>> perform the actual decision. The community makes the decisions
>> about opening/closing new projects, and the sysadmins carry
>> out the actual task.
>
> But what is "the community" (the community of the project being
> closed? the meta community? the Wikimedia community as a whole? the
> Wikimedia community minus the community of the project being closed?
> etc.) and what is required for something to be considered a "decision"
> (majority? supermajority? consensus? unanimity?)?
>
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>

I don't know. I don't follow those discussions. I was just clarifying the
question as to "what user roles play into this?" Right now, that only
includes the sysadmins.

-Chad

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2009/8/24 Chad <innocentkiller@gmail.com>:
> I don't know. I don't follow those discussions. I was just clarifying the
> question as to "what user roles play into this?" Right now, that only
> includes the sysadmins.

Implementing the final decision is a job for sysadmins, certainly, but
it shouldn't be the sysadmin the makes the final decision. It's like
desysoppings - they are implemented by stewards, but stewards have
nothing to do with deciding who to desysop.

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2009/8/24 Andrew Turvey <andrewrturvey@googlemail.com>

> First, if the conclusion is that no procedure exists, a notice should be
> put on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projectsstating this so that peoples' expectations are appropriately managed.


Good idea, I added a note on the top of the page "Apart from the common
practices below, there is no official policy on closing projects".

Second, is that correct? Looking at
> http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects/Closure_of_Herero_Wikipediait seems that there certainly was a procedure in the past where articles
> were shifted back into the Incubator.
>

There is no procedure in the sense of how to reach a consensus to close the
wiki.
Moving pages to Incubator is what comes *after* the wiki is closed, to give
a future community the chance to build a new wiki at the Incubator. Imagine
if you work on a small project knowing that if the project is closed, all
your work is gone (until the wiki is opened again - which has never happened
before afaik).

Most importantly, should there be a procedure? Keeping projects open is a
> drain on resources, such as removing vandalism. There is a level of activity
> below which the positive benefits of the project are outweighed by the
> drain, although it's clearly not worth closing a project if the effort to do
> this is not a worthwhile investment.
>

When looking at the recent changes and logs of several wikis proposed to be
closed, the amount of vandalism in the past year was very low.
I guess vandalism on big projects requires much more work than all those
small wikis together.


Overall, I agree with Gerard.

What I don't like is that proposals stay open for years without even being
closed as "inactive proposal for closure" (ironically).
Or, the opposite, a lot of discussion to close a relatively low-active
project in a major language. In this case, Dutch Wikinews.

----- "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> > From: "Gerard Meijssen" <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>
> > To: "Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List" <
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Sent: Thursday, 20 August, 2009 19:01:39 GMT +00:00 GMT Britain, Ireland,
> Portugal
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] Closure of projects
> >
> > Hoi,
> > There is no procedure because what comes closest to a consensus amount to
> a
> > lot of work. Work that does not forward our mission one iota. The fact
> that
> > people vote and comment is not that special, people do ... if they vote
> that
> > I will wear a tutu at Wikimania and a consensus says that I should, I
> still
> > have to volunteer to wear that tutu. It is the same as voting for a bug
> in
> > bugzilla. The votes are not considered so why bother ?
> >
> > As to the language committee, it does only consider new requests for
> > projects ... if it were to expand its services it would be in indicating
> > what issues exist that deal with language support that would make a
> > difference to the usability of our software. It would not be drinking
> from
> > the poisoned chalice that is closing projects. The closest we came to
> > expressing an opinion is that we would prefer the content of a to be
> closed
> > project to be imported into the Incubator. This is a not good for
> Incubator
> > because they get dead wood loaded into their project ....
> >
> > So all in all in my opinion it is best to leave these things as is and
> > ignore requests for closure.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > 2009/8/20 Huib! <Abigor@forgotten-beauty.com>
> >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > I noticed that there are still a lot of open request for closure on
> Meta
> > > so I decided to contact a LangCom member (Robin) asking him about how
> > > and when the projects will be closed or when the requests will be
> > > closed, but I recieved a answer I didn't expected.
> > >
> > > Robin told me there was no policy (
> > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Closure_of_WMF_projects ) about the
> > > closure of projects so the request can stay open for always.
> > >
> > >
> > > I think its kind of strange that we people can make a request, that
> > > there are people who are voting and spending there time commenting on
> > > the request or even worse have stress because there project could be
> > > closed but the request will never be closed.
> > >
> > >
> > > Is there a way to change this with a new policy, or with a different
> com
> > > for the closure, because this seems to me a waste of time for a lot of
> > > people, people can stop editting projects just because the think the
> > > project will be closed.
> > >
> > > At this moment there are 27 request for projects to be closed, (
> > > http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Proposals_for_closing_projects ) I
> think
> > > 50% is a easy closure for keep or close. The oldest project is from
> 2007
> > > that would mean its still open after 2 years :/
> > >
> > > --
> > > *Huib Laurens*
> > >
> > > Web: Forgotten-beauty.com <http://www.forgotten-beauty.com.com/>
> > > Email: Abigor@forgotten-beauty.com <mailto:abigor@forgotten-beauty.com
> >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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