Mailing List Archive

Block update
Mark W. wrote:
> It looks to me like Austin did exactly what he should've so I'm not
> sure why you're implying he made an incorrect decision. Exactly what
> did he do wrong in your opinion?

Austin may have done exactly right, but his lack of responsiveness - just
as with Arbcom - just as with Cary - made it an issue. As it currently
stands the list moderator has blocked three of my posts on different
threads, and is also ignoring my direct request to be unblocked.

Here's an idea: Arbcom - respond to case subject's questions and comments
and maybe organize some case-centered discussion. Here's an idea: Mailing
list creators - respond to requests for new list creation. Here's an idea:
Mailing list moderators - respond to requests for clarification about
blocks and state blocks openly.

Nathan wrote:
> Stevertigo is more interested in the debate, in my opinion, than any
> particular outcome.

I do love to argue, but this comment is not accurate. The truth is I just
like it better when people don't act like dicks. This includes angels,
supermodels, Presidents, founders, Arbcom members, foundation bureaucrats,
and myself (I'm admittedly feeling a bit forced into the concept).

> If you find that people don't take your side even after you have "utterly
> destroyed them, point by point" then perhaps you should pick a new approach.

I understand that people don't like having their pet concepts taken apart.
I mean nothing personal by it - simply separate from your defunct concept,
admit cordially that I might have a point, and there will be no issue.

Sources of bullshit will often think that the bull-fighter is evil. "What
of it? At least the [bullshit] is disposed of." (after Mencken)

-Stevertigo





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Re: Block update [ In reply to ]
Perhaps we do need a dispute resolution mailing list for resolving
disputes that involve the mailing lists. It would be better than
having the lists themselves filled with complaints.

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Re: Block update [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Aug 7, 2009, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> said:

> Perhaps we do need a dispute resolution mailing list for resolving
> disputes that involve the mailing lists. It would be better than
> having the lists themselves filled with complaints.

I'm always open to similarly creative suggestions, and I appreciate your
ability turn lemons into lemonade here.

But why would the new list you propose be specific to mailing list
disputes only? A mailing list issues only list might get little
traffic/attention, though, and maybe that's not a good thing. Could it not
be generalized a bit to include even high-level discussion of on-wiki
dispute handling?

-Stevertigo


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Re: Block update [ In reply to ]
2009/8/8 Stevertjgo <owl@spaz.org>:
> On Fri, Aug 7, 2009, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> said:
>
>> Perhaps we do need a dispute resolution mailing list for resolving
>> disputes that involve the mailing lists. It would be better than
>> having the lists themselves filled with complaints.
>
> I'm always open to similarly creative suggestions, and I appreciate your
> ability turn lemons into lemonade here.
>
> But why would the new list you propose be specific to mailing list
> disputes only? A mailing list issues only list might get little
> traffic/attention, though, and maybe that's not a good thing. Could it not
> be generalized a bit to include even high-level discussion of on-wiki
> dispute handling?

I think those high level discussion can take place either on-wiki or
on existing mailing lists without a problem. Discussing specific
disputes tends to annoy people on the existing mailing lists and it
doesn't make sense to discuss mailing list disputes on-wiki, so the
obvious answer seems to be a separate mailing list (or several,
divided up by language, I don't know if the non-English lists have a
problem needing this solution or not). I think it being a low traffic
list would be a good thing - the moderators would all have to be there
and a few mailing list regulars would sign up to keep an eye on things
and disputes could hopefully be resolved with a minimum of drama.

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Re: Block update [ In reply to ]
> 2009/8/8 Stevertjgo <owl@spaz.org>:

> I think those high level discussion can take place either on-wiki or
> on existing mailing lists without a problem.

I generally agree. But "existing mailing lists" generally means wikien-l -
once highly purposed toward resolving on-wiki disputes - is now
notoriously dismissive of dispute resolution issues and geared more toward
discussing Wikipedia's media image.

> Discussing specific disputes tends to annoy people on the existing
> mailing lists and it doesn't make sense to discuss mailing list disputes
> on-wiki, so the obvious answer seems to be a separate mailing list (or
> several, divided up by language
> I don't know if the non-English lists have a
> problem needing this solution or not).

OK, I agree, but would want to generalize it into either the dispute
resolution or mailing list dimensions. A 'mailing list for discussing
mailing lists and related issues? Hm.

> I think it being a low traffic
> list would be a good thing - the moderators would all have to be there
> and a few mailing list regulars would sign up to keep an eye on things
> and disputes could hopefully be resolved with a minimum of drama.

Alright. I am not easily persuaded, but you make an interesting case. A
lists-l list then.

We can there discuss a new possible disputes-l list, as well as any ending
any defunct lists, etc.

-Steven




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Re: Block update [ In reply to ]
2009/8/10 stevertigo <owl@spaz.org>:
>> 2009/8/8 Stevertjgo <owl@spaz.org>:
>
>> I think those high level discussion can take place either on-wiki or
>> on existing mailing lists without a problem.
>
> I generally agree. But "existing mailing lists" generally means wikien-l -
> once highly purposed toward resolving on-wiki disputes - is now
> notoriously dismissive of dispute resolution issues and geared more toward
> discussing Wikipedia's media image.

wikien-l is dismissive of specific disputes, I don't think people
would object to civil, non-sensational, good faith discussions about
the dispute resolution process.

> OK, I agree, but would want to generalize it into either the dispute
> resolution or mailing list dimensions. A 'mailing list for discussing
> mailing lists and related issues? Hm.

Yeah, that would work.

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Re: Block update [ In reply to ]
Remind me, please, why we are still talking about this.

skype: node.ue



On Sun, Aug 9, 2009 at 4:13 PM, stevertigo<owl@spaz.org> wrote:
>> 2009/8/8 Stevertjgo <owl@spaz.org>:
>
>> I think those high level discussion can take place either on-wiki or
>> on existing mailing lists without a problem.
>
> I generally agree. But "existing mailing lists" generally means wikien-l -
> once highly purposed toward resolving on-wiki disputes - is now
> notoriously dismissive of dispute resolution issues and geared more toward
> discussing Wikipedia's media image.
>
>> Discussing specific disputes tends to annoy people on the existing
>> mailing lists and it doesn't make sense to discuss mailing list disputes
>> on-wiki, so the obvious answer seems to be a separate mailing list (or
>> several, divided up by language
>> I don't know if the non-English lists have a
>> problem needing this solution or not).
>
> OK, I agree, but would want to generalize it into either the dispute
> resolution or mailing list dimensions. A 'mailing list for discussing
> mailing lists and related issues? Hm.
>
>> I think it being a low traffic
>> list would be a good thing - the moderators would all have to be there
>> and a few mailing list regulars would sign up to keep an eye on things
>> and disputes could hopefully be resolved with a minimum of drama.
>
> Alright. I am not easily persuaded, but you make an interesting case. A
> lists-l list then.
>
> We can there discuss a new possible disputes-l list, as well as any ending
> any defunct lists, etc.
>
> -Steven
>
>
>
>
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>

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Re: Block update [ In reply to ]
Mark Williamson<node.ue@gmail.com> wrote:
> Remind me, please, why we are still talking about this.

Well, Thomas' idea about a lists-l list for discussing mailing lists and
mailing list issues is new, so there is no issue of "still talking about
this" when the "this" you refer to isn't one of the issues that I raised.
Thomas - instead of just complaining about having meta discussions here -
is actually doing something productive, and proposes an interesting
solution to everybody's problems:

1) nobody likes me taking issue with non-Foundation issues here on
foundation-l,
2) but still my issues are legitimate and need to be addressed openly.
3) A lists-l list would be the perfect place to discuss
a) blocks,
b) issues with list admins,
c) new list proposals,
d) proposals to integrate or deprecate existing lists, etc.

Cary of course would run lists-l, and keeping list discussion there means
there would be no issues related to discussing meta ("off topic") issues
here. All that would show on here or on wikien-l is a pointer to the top
post in the thread on the lists-l archive, and everyone is happy.

-Stevertigo




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Re: Block update [ In reply to ]
I'll begin to take this thread and your proposals seriously once they
get some support from somebody besides yourself and Thomas Dalton.
Nothing personal, it just doesn't seem like anybody else has been
paying much attention to this thread so far.

Mark

On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 6:45 PM, stevertigo<owl@spaz.org> wrote:
> Mark Williamson<node.ue@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Remind me, please, why we are still talking about this.
>
> Well, Thomas' idea about a lists-l list for discussing mailing lists and
> mailing list issues is new, so there is no issue of "still talking about
> this" when the "this" you refer to isn't one of the issues that I raised.
> Thomas - instead of just complaining about having meta discussions here -
> is actually doing something productive, and proposes an interesting
> solution to everybody's problems:
>
> 1) nobody likes me taking issue with non-Foundation issues here on
> foundation-l,
> 2) but still my issues are legitimate and need to be addressed openly.
> 3) A lists-l list would be the perfect place to discuss
>  a) blocks,
>  b) issues with list admins,
>  c) new list proposals,
>  d) proposals to integrate or deprecate existing lists, etc.
>
> Cary of course would run lists-l, and keeping list discussion there means
> there would be no issues related to discussing meta ("off topic") issues
> here. All that would show on here or on wikien-l is a pointer to the top
> post in the thread on the lists-l archive, and everyone is happy.
>
> -Stevertigo
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: Block update [ In reply to ]
Tom and I don't agree on everything. In fact he's been the most vocal
critic of the disputes-l idea. The important difference being that he
doesnt just whine about other people's ideas/discussions/issues,
rather he tries To compose reasoned and sound objections and
alternatives.
-Steven

On 8/10/09, Mark Williamson <node.ue@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll begin to take this thread and your proposals seriously once they
> get some support from somebody besides yourself and Thomas Dalton.
> Nothing personal, it just doesn't seem like anybody else has been
> paying much attention to this thread so far.
>
> Mark
>
> On Mon, Aug 10, 2009 at 6:45 PM, stevertigo<owl@spaz.org> wrote:
>> Mark Williamson<node.ue@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Remind me, please, why we are still talking about this.
>>
>> Well, Thomas' idea about a lists-l list for discussing mailing lists and
>> mailing list issues is new, so there is no issue of "still talking about
>> this" when the "this" you refer to isn't one of the issues that I raised.
>> Thomas - instead of just complaining about having meta discussions here -
>> is actually doing something productive, and proposes an interesting
>> solution to everybody's problems:
>>
>> 1) nobody likes me taking issue with non-Foundation issues here on
>> foundation-l,
>> 2) but still my issues are legitimate and need to be addressed openly.
>> 3) A lists-l list would be the perfect place to discuss
>>  a) blocks,
>>  b) issues with list admins,
>>  c) new list proposals,
>>  d) proposals to integrate or deprecate existing lists, etc.
>>
>> Cary of course would run lists-l, and keeping list discussion there means
>> there would be no issues related to discussing meta ("off topic") issues
>> here. All that would show on here or on wikien-l is a pointer to the top
>> post in the thread on the lists-l archive, and everyone is happy.
>>
>> -Stevertigo
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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