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Re: National Portrait Gallery [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 10:19 AM, geni<geniice@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/7/18 Yann Forget <yann@forget-me.net>:
>> In the case of the NPG, it is quite clear that the cost of the
>> digitalization is small compared with the potential benefit.
>> There are people and organisations willing to pay to have a copy of
>> these famous portraits. The issue is how to collect the funds without
>> puting a copyright on the images. For this, we need a new business
>> model. Think about how donations was raised to free up Blender.[1]
>>
>> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)#History
>
> €100,000 is not a significant amount of money when dealing with trying
> to digitalize the various UK archives.
>

The exact amount of money is beside the point. I think the business
model analagous to Blender goes something like this:

A GLAM figures out the cost per item of its digitization project.
Take that, add some modest figure for subsidizing the rest of the
institution's activities, and that's the price for releasing any given
reproduction. Anyone may contribute all or part of the price for
releasing any given work. Once the full price has been reached, the
scan is made available for free to anyone.

Maybe this would happen in lots, with the most popular/useful/valuable
works digitized in the early lots with higher prices so that the
capital investments get recouped early on. The next lot gets
digitized once a certain threshold is reached with the previous one
(e.g., the break-even point to finance the next lot). Maybe there are
tiers for any given work:$X for 800px, $2X for 1600px, $4X for 3200px,
etc. If the 1600px version is available already but you really need
the 3200px version, you pay the difference of $2X and now the 3200px
version is available for everyone.

The advantage of this scheme is that there are several groups who
would be likely to help pay for the digitization: publishers who need
hi-res versions and who would previously have paid for licensing; arts
lovers who would be making donations anyway (and who can now point
exactly to what their donation funded); free culture advocates. And
if there is some way of recognizing the donors ("This portrait was
digitized thanks to the donations of John Q. Wikipedian and Sally B.
Artlover"), it might be much more financially successful in the short
to medium term than the copyright-and-license model.

-Sage

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Re: National Portrait Gallery [ In reply to ]
geni wrote:
> 2009/7/18 Yann Forget <yann@forget-me.net>:
>> In the case of the NPG, it is quite clear that the cost of the
>> digitalization is small compared with the potential benefit.
>> There are people and organisations willing to pay to have a copy of
>> these famous portraits. The issue is how to collect the funds without
>> puting a copyright on the images. For this, we need a new business
>> model. Think about how donations was raised to free up Blender.[1]
>>
>> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)#History
>
> €100,000 is not a significant amount of money when dealing with trying
> to digitalize the various UK archives.

Comparing the amount raised for a single (quite obscure) software with
what could be raised to digitalize world-famous works of art does not
make sense.

Yann
--
http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
http://fr.wikisource.org/ | Bibliothèque libre
http://wikilivres.info | Documents libres

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Re: National Portrait Gallery [ In reply to ]
The problem is in sustaining the less used part of the collection,
which from an archival standpoint and also ultimate cultural value is
equally important. Normally, any such institution would expect to use
the profits from the ones that sell most to support the others--[[The
long tail]].

This is analogous to the principle that it is easy to finance a
library of best-sellers--any town can do it, but only the very richest
organizations can afford a library that includes everything that might
be needed.

David Goodman, Ph.D, M.L.S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:DGG



On Sat, Jul 18, 2009 at 2:36 PM, Yann Forget<yann@forget-me.net> wrote:
> geni wrote:
>> 2009/7/18 Yann Forget <yann@forget-me.net>:
>>> In the case of the NPG, it is quite clear that the cost of the
>>> digitalization is small compared with the potential benefit.
>>> There are people and organisations willing to pay to have a copy of
>>> these famous portraits. The issue is how to collect the funds without
>>> puting a copyright on the images. For this, we need a new business
>>> model. Think about how donations was raised to free up Blender.[1]
>>>
>>> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)#History
>>
>> €100,000 is not a significant amount of money when dealing with trying
>> to digitalize the various UK archives.
>
> Comparing the amount raised for a single (quite obscure) software with
> what could be raised to digitalize world-famous works of art does not
> make sense.
>
> Yann
> --
> http://www.non-violence.org/ | Site collaboratif sur la non-violence
> http://www.forget-me.net/ | Alternatives sur le Net
> http://fr.wikisource.org/ | Bibliothèque libre
> http://wikilivres.info | Documents libres
>
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Re: National Portrait Gallery [ In reply to ]
Forget direct funding, its not practical. The interesting thing is, we
do have "sales organization" that is very important for
GLAM-institutions, and it is probably so interesting that a conflict
with us is simply to damaging. How do we turn this around to make it
even more interesting for them?

Imagine this, if a gallery or museum has a painting of some "Leonard van
der Olsen-Mozart" (he don't exist, hopefully..) then this museum should
make sure there is a bio for the person and of his painting of "The
fallen Madonna with the big bottom", and those should link back to the
galleries own pages. At those pages the gallery should make available
any high res copies, uv-scans, scientific works, etc, about the painting
and the painter. We should be "the yellow pages for the
GLAM-institutions". It should be so important for them to have a
presence on Wikipedia that it should raise questions from the government
if they don't have a sufficient presence.

Now, how do we make this possible? Forget direct funding, that is simply
not interesting. Making the material available is interesting because
this creates further use, not to forget visitors.

John

geni wrote:
> 2009/7/18 Yann Forget <yann@forget-me.net>:
>> geni wrote:
>>> 2009/7/18 Durova <nadezhda.durova@gmail.com>:
>>>> Put me in touch with instructors at art schools and I'll incorporate
>>>> restoration into their curriculum. You'll be surprised how scaleable this
>>>> is, particularly if we work out exhibition opportunities.
>>>>
>>>> -Durova
>>> Restoration isn't the problem for the most part. The English part of
>>> the National Monuments Record contains about 10 million items (mostly
>>> photos I think). Wales and Scotland ad few million more.
>>>
>>> That includes a fairly complete public domain aerial survey of the UK
>>> from the 1940s.
>>>
>>> We do not have the capacity to support digitalization on that scale.
>> Well, who's your "we"?
>>
>> In the case of the NPG, it is quite clear that the cost of the
>> digitalization is small compared with the potential benefit.
>> There are people and organisations willing to pay to have a copy of
>> these famous portraits. The issue is how to collect the funds without
>> puting a copyright on the images. For this, we need a new business
>> model. Think about how donations was raised to free up Blender.[1]
>>
>> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blender_(software)#History
>
> €100,000 is not a significant amount of money when dealing with trying
> to digitalize the various UK archives.
>
>

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Re: National Portrait Gallery [ In reply to ]
2009/7/18 John at Darkstar <vacuum@jeb.no>:

> Imagine this, if a gallery or museum has a painting of some "Leonard van
> der Olsen-Mozart" (he don't exist, hopefully..) then this museum should
> make sure there is a bio for the person and of his painting of "The
> fallen Madonna with the big bottom", and those should link back to the
> galleries own pages. At those pages the gallery should make available
> any high res copies, uv-scans, scientific works, etc, about the painting
> and the painter. We should be "the yellow pages for the
> GLAM-institutions". It should be so important for them to have a
> presence on Wikipedia that it should raise questions from the government
> if they don't have a sufficient presence.


Giving galleries lots of links to their pages is something we should
be happy to do, as it's informative, educational and helps the reader.

One of the many Freedom Of Information requests people have filed with
the NPG in the past week (since this storm broke) is: what proportion
of their web hits are from Wikipedia/Wikimedia?


- d.

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Re: National Portrait Gallery [ In reply to ]
IANAL, but I don't think I need to be to say the "The Foundation" is not in
legal jeopardy here unless it chooses to be. It's protected by a
four-thousand-mile moat, a war of independence, several layers of legal code
and a US Supreme Court decision. It doesn't have any assets in the UK as
far as I'm aware; there is absolutely nothing a UK court could punish them
with. That's not the same as saying that a UK court case couldn't result in
a judgment that was disadvantageous to the Foundation. For instance, I
*believe* from the same set of legal issues as those surrounding
peer-to-peer filesharing, that if the images were unequivocally found to be
copyright violations in the UK, then any UK reader or editor who accessed
them could be exposed to some sort of legal nastiness.

I agree that any comment, however informal, from someone who *is* an English
lawyer, would be very useful.

--HM

"peter boelens" <pboel@xs4all.nl> wrote in
message news:CF6DC9A6B75E4D7583CCDCA394FC6AA6@cc1070822a...
> I probably missed a few posts, but the way this is going raises some
> serious
> questions. It would be helpfull if someone with good knowledge of English
> Law would explain the risks of going trough the English Courts. I am a
> lawyer, but not an English one. What I do know of the English Legal system
> is that losing a lawsuit there is a very expensive excercise. And if this
> thing goes to court there is a real chance that the Foundation will loose.
> So a deal with NPG would be the sensible thing, and if a deal is not
> possible deleting seems the better option.
> Peter b.
>
>
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