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Re: Re-licensing [ In reply to ]
Thomas Dalton wrote:
> Where do you think laws come from? Do you think they appear from
> nowhere? They are created by politicians (and sometimes judges) based
> on moral values. Those moral values imply certain moral rights whether
> they are written down in statute (or case law) or not.
>
>
From politicians, Yes. But more as matters of expediency, lobbying, and
helping one's friends. I would avoid making a general imputation of
motives based in moral values to politicians.

Ec

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Re: Re-licensing (OT) [ In reply to ]
Ray Saintonge wrote:
> Anthony wrote:
>

>> That would be odd if it were true. But it isn't. Theft and slavery are
>> morally wrong, in addition to (and regardless of) being illegal.
>>
> Theft has been quite consistently viewed as wrong throughout history,
> with possible exemptions for kings.
>
>

(Off-topic)

Or as authorized by the state by letters of marque or
other instruments of the kind. Most prominently the
case with state sponsored piracy.


Yours,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen


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Re: Re-licensing [ In reply to ]
By way of top-posting a brief preamble, let me apologize
if someone thinks it tacky to reply to a week old posting,
but I personally needed to reflect a bit before my precise
position has clarified on some issues, which I do want
to address.

Erik Moeller wrote:


> Flexible and vague clauses can work well when you're dealing with
> issues with few stakeholders who all have a shared and tacit
> understanding of what they want to accomplish. By definition, massive
> collaboration isn't such a situation: any one of hundreds or thousands
> of contributors to a document can behave unreasonably, interpreting
> rules to the detriment of others. The distributed ownership of
> copyright to a single work is an example of what Michael Heller calls
> 'gridlock' or an 'anticommons'. Ironically, even with free content
> licenses, the gridlock effects of copyright can still come into play.
>
>
I think the problem I have with this is the view that wikipedia
is merely a massive collaboration. It certainly is that too, but
we certainly have not shied away from also importing works
from already published sources, while their licensing has
been compatible. If it is your intention to indicate a radical
shift that would forever prevent this practice, and require
that all content be composed on-site, it would be useful if
you came right out and said so, so we could all address this
issue head on.

But there is a real problem of saying that those who have
created such material under a compatible license, have
also implicitly agreed with site terms of use.
> I believe it's our obligation to give our reusers protection from
> being hassled by people insisting on heavy attribution requirements,
> and to create consistency in reuse guidelines. Really, WMF and its
> chapters can hardly develop partnerships with content reusers if we
> can't give clarity on what's required of them. A great deal of free
> information reuse may not be happening because of fear, uncertainty
> and doubt. I would much rather remove all doubt that our content is
> free to be reused without onerous restrictions.
>
>

Well, I think it would be really bad if WMF and its chapters
willfully mislead their partners on what was legally required
to allow reuse in the maximum of jurisdictions that are
compatible with the base licensing, never mind what site
terms of use say.

It is a simple inescapable fact that international laws on
Intellectual Property are complex, and it is because of
this that the Creative Commons accommodate multiple
jurisdictions interoperability as far as possible. If it
were the case that WMF in the interest of claiming to
"clarify" issues, when they in fact will cloud the real
complexity by expressing a false simplicity, where none
obtains; well, in my personal opinion, that would not be
all that useful.

Terms of use can require things beyond the licensing,
I suppose, such as waiving rights, in jurisdictions
where that can be done (I believe in Canada you can
waive moral rights for instance), or contractually agree
to not pursue some rights, even though they theoretically
are still yours, but that still leaves jurisdictions where
moral rights are inalienable, and the conundrum of
content not created under site terms of use, but
merely imported under a license which would be
compatible with the license our content would be
under, but not under any reasonable understanding
of the terms of use further requirements to rescind
some rights that are not impinged upon by the
license itself.


Yours,

Jussi-Ville Heiskanen




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Re: Re-licensing [ In reply to ]
Anthony writes:

>> Actually, the difference is quite relevant in a courtroom,
>> especially when
>> dealing with constitutional issues. That's why I find it nearly
>> impossible
>> to believe that Mike doesn't understand this. How in the world can
>> you
>> defend people's constitutional rights if you think they're made up
>> out of
>> nowhere? Why defend free speech if it's just a couple words some
>> guys made
>> up and wrote down on paper? The very nature of the legal system in
>> the
>> United States of America is based upon natural rights. "We hold
>> these
>> truths to be self-evident". Self-evident. Not created by
>> congressmen.

It is a common mistake to confuse the Declaration of Independence
(which Anthony quotes above), which uses the rhetoric of natural
rights, with the U.S. Constitution, which does not use that rhetoric.
The first was published in 1776; the second was completed in 1787,
with the Bill of Rights added in 1791. The reason for the addition of
the Bill of Rights was precisely that the Framers and the voters came
to believe that no concept of "natural rights" was adequate to
guarantee protection of things like "the freedom of speech," even
under a government of limited and specified powers.

Of course, any historically informed reading of the Declaration of
Independence can see that its natural-rights rhetoric can be
understand in ways that are consistent with the explicit creation of
rights in the Constitution. To wit, we may be said to have the general
natural right to create our own specific Constitutionally and legally
guaranteed rights. (This is more or less what the Declaration of
Independence says.)

But it's quite clear that the Declaration of Independence, standing
alone, has no legal force. It's a rhetorical document, not a legal
one, which may be why Anthony prefers quoting the Declaration to
quoting the Constitution (in whose Amendments "the freedom of speech"
is guaranteed). It should be noted that the Constitution does not even
grant rights to Authors and Inventors. What it does, expressly, is
give Congress the power to create such rights (without specifying what
those rights might be). It would clearly be constitutional for
Congress to change rights in copyright, or even remove them. Such a
change is not the sort of thing that can be understood by any naive
natural-rights theory of copyright.

Trying to cite the Declaration of Independence as the basis for your
legal defense in a criminal case -- "Hey, I was just exercising my
right to resist a bad king!" -- is a good way to guarantee going to
jail.


--Mike





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Re: Re-licensing [ In reply to ]
Anthony writes:

>> Why defend free speech if it's just a couple words some guys made
>> up and wrote down on paper? The very nature of the legal system in
>> the
>> United States of America is based upon natural rights. "We hold
>> these
>> truths to be self-evident". Self-evident. Not created by
>> congressmen.

In an effort to add some light rather than heat, let me say this in
response:

It is a common mistake to confuse the Declaration of Independence
(quoted above), which uses the rhetoric of natural rights, with the
U.S. Constitution, which does not use that rhetoric. The first was
published in 1776; the second was completed in 1787, with the Bill of
Rights added in 1791. The reason for the addition of the Bill of
Rights was precisely that the Framers and the voters came to believe
that no concept of "natural rights" was adequate to guarantee
protection of things like "the freedom of speech," even under a
government of limited and specified powers.

The Declaration of Independence is not part of "the legal system in
the United States of America." It's a rhetorical document, not a legal
one.

Of course, any historically informed reading of the Declaration of
Independence can see that its natural-rights rhetoric can be
understand in ways that are consistent with the explicit creation of
rights in the Constitution. To wit, we may be said to have the general
natural right to create our own specific Constitutionally and legally
guaranteed rights. (This is more or less what the Declaration of
Independence says.
But it's quite clear that the Declaration of Independence, standing
alone, has no legal force.)

It should be noted that the Constitution does not even grant rights
to Authors and Inventors. What it does, expressly, is give Congress
the power to create such rights (without specifying what those rights
might be). It would clearly be constitutional for Congress to change
rights in copyright, or even remove them. Such a change is not the
sort of thing that can be understood by any natural-rights theory of
copyright.


--Mike





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Re: Re-licensing [ In reply to ]
Mike Godwin wrote:
> Trying to cite the Declaration of Independence as the basis for your
> legal defense in a criminal case -- "Hey, I was just exercising my
> right to resist a bad king!" -- is a good way to guarantee going to
> jail.
>
>

So much for the right to bear arms! :-)

Ec

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Re: Re-licensing [ In reply to ]
2009/2/1 Mike Godwin <mgodwin@wikimedia.org>:
>
> Anthony writes:
>
>>> Actually, the difference is quite relevant in a courtroom,
>>> especially when
>>> dealing with constitutional issues. That's why I find it nearly
>>> impossible
>>> to believe that Mike doesn't understand this. How in the world can
>>> you
>>> defend people's constitutional rights if you think they're made up
>>> out of
>>> nowhere? Why defend free speech if it's just a couple words some
>>> guys made
>>> up and wrote down on paper? The very nature of the legal system in
>>> the
>>> United States of America is based upon natural rights. "We hold
>>> these
>>> truths to be self-evident". Self-evident. Not created by
>>> congressmen.
>
> It is a common mistake... [snip]

I'm confused... why have you sent a reply (twice) to an off-topic
thread that died out over a week ago? Or did these get stuck in the
moderation system somehow? (In which case - Mods: if you don't keep up
to date with moderation, just delete emails that are no longer
relevant [and let the author know], it rarely serves much purpose
posting them a week late.)

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Re: Re-licensing [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 7:46 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2009/2/1 Mike Godwin <mgodwin@wikimedia.org>:
>>
>> Anthony writes:
>>
>>>> Actually, the difference is quite relevant in a courtroom,
>>>> especially when
>>>> dealing with constitutional issues. That's why I find it nearly
>>>> impossible
>>>> to believe that Mike doesn't understand this. How in the world can
>>>> you
>>>> defend people's constitutional rights if you think they're made up
>>>> out of
>>>> nowhere? Why defend free speech if it's just a couple words some
>>>> guys made
>>>> up and wrote down on paper? The very nature of the legal system in
>>>> the
>>>> United States of America is based upon natural rights. "We hold
>>>> these
>>>> truths to be self-evident". Self-evident. Not created by
>>>> congressmen.
>>
>> It is a common mistake... [snip]
>
> I'm confused... why have you sent a reply (twice) to an off-topic
> thread that died out over a week ago? Or did these get stuck in the
> moderation system somehow? (In which case - Mods: if you don't keep up
> to date with moderation, just delete emails that are no longer
> relevant [and let the author know], it rarely serves much purpose
> posting them a week late.)

As I explained to Mike already: It must have been a technical problem
-- his mails are not and were never moderated.

Michael



--
Michael Bimmler
mbimmler@gmail.com

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Re: Re-licensing [ In reply to ]
Ray Saintonge writes

>
> > Trying to cite the Declaration of Independence as the basis for your
> > legal defense in a criminal case -- "Hey, I was just exercising my
> > right to resist a bad king!" -- is a good way to guarantee going to
> > jail.
> >
> >
>
> So much for the right to bear arms! :-)


Oh, the Second Amendment can be invoked, sometimes even successfully, these
days. But remember that's in the Bill of Rights to the Constitution. Anthony
was citing the Declaration of Independence, incorrectly, as the basis of the
American legal system. Actually, the Constitution is the basis for that.

Incidentally, the Constitution does not guarantee either rights in copyright
generally, or rights of attribution specifically. What it does do
specifically is allow the Congress to *create* such rights -- a notion that
natural-rights copyright theorists can't quite explain.


--Mike
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Re: Re-licensing [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 1:51 PM, Michael Bimmler <mbimmler@gmail.com> wrote:

> As I explained to Mike already: It must have been a technical problem
> -- his mails are not and were never moderated.
>
> Michael
>
>
This was taken care of by Mark, see
http://wikitech.wikimedia.org/index.php?diff=18442&oldid=18441

-Chad
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Re: Re-licensing [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Mike Godwin <mnemonic@gmail.com> wrote:

> Ray Saintonge writes
>
> >
> > > Trying to cite the Declaration of Independence as the basis for your
> > > legal defense in a criminal case -- "Hey, I was just exercising my
> > > right to resist a bad king!" -- is a good way to guarantee going to
> > > jail.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > So much for the right to bear arms! :-)
>
>
> Oh, the Second Amendment can be invoked, sometimes even successfully, these
> days. But remember that's in the Bill of Rights to the Constitution.
> Anthony
> was citing the Declaration of Independence, incorrectly, as the basis of
> the
> American legal system. Actually, the Constitution is the basis for that.
>

Since the moderators don't want us engaging in this discussion I'll keep my
response short. You are misrepresenting what I said.
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