Mailing List Archive

Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
Although, on his user page he says that the mailing list is the place to
discuss the nature of Wikipedia. That seems a bit strange to me though - I
am quite sure that the volume of discussion about the nature of Wikipedia in
talk pages and meta pages vastly outweighs the discussions on the mailing
lists, and has a greater influence of people's behavior, and wiki-policy.

On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Brian <Brian.Mingus@colorado.edu> wrote:

> I believe the point that Jimbo is making (i will certainly be corrected if
> wrong :-) is that there is no externally imposed hierarchy. The wiki really
> did start as a tabula rasa, and all discussions of its hierarchy can be
> found in its pages.
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 1:23 PM, James Rigg <jamesrigg1974@googlemail.com>wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 6:31 PM, Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>
>> wrote:
>> > James Rigg wrote:
>> >> Thanks geni.
>> >>
>> >> So, to put it crudely, the talk of full transparency and lack of
>> >> hierarchy is now viewed as just naive idealism that existed at the
>> >> start of the project, and which has now been abandoned?
>> >
>> > No, not at all.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> But there isn't full transparency, and there is a hierarchy.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
>
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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
I do not "describe how - in your opinion - the conduct of the English
Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation don't live up to those
principles".

I'm actually simply pointing-out that the *stated* semi-transparency,
and hierarchical structure, of Wikipedia/Wikimedia is contrary to the
*stated* principles of transparency and no hierarchy.

Nowhere in this thread have I stated that this is a good or bad thing
in relation to Wikipedia/Wikimedia.

James


On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 8:37 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:
> I don't see the conflict James Riggs is describing. You point to statements
> of principles by Jimmy Wales, and then describe how - in your opinion - the
> conduct of the English Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation don't live up
> to those principles. Well, that doesn't shock me and it shouldn't shock you.
>
>
> The English Wikipedia is quite transparent, more so than perhaps any
> community or organizational structure I've encountered. Only mailing lists
> that regularly deal with personal, private information are closed to the
> community. Nearly all decision making of any weight is done on-wiki, with
> complete access for anyone who wants it to all or mostly all discussion
> precursors.
>
> The Wikimedia Foundation is a business, and by the standards of modern
> business it is also quite transparent. Its financial information, its plans,
> its employee roster, its job descriptions, its revenue and fund raising
> model and its long term goals are all available for your discovery. Every
> major decision that impacts the projects is discussed publicly ahead of
> time. That *is* transparency, in my opinion.
>
> When someone who self describes as a "newbie" that has not joined in working
> on the Wikimedia projects posts to the Foundation mailing list describing
> what he believes to be a material mischaracterisation, he gets a response
> from the founder and the deputy director (and former board member) in short
> order. Try doing that with General Electric, or really nearly any other
> corporation in the world.
>
> Your e-mails indicate that you concluded first and asked second, so
> hopefully you will now reconsider.
>
> Nathan
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
I think there's two parallel conversations going on here, which is making it
hard for anybody to come to an understanding.

James, it seems like you're saying that Wikimedia (apparently) espouses
absolute transparency and equality, and in fact only practices those virtues
to the boundaries of common sense. That difference, between the absolute
and the common sense, strikes you as disingenuous.

Everybody else seems to be saying that Wikimedia only ever intended to run
an organization in a manner consistent with common sense, and that realities
of how Wikimedia is run are not, in fact, at odds with the founding
principles, nor have the founding principles been abandoned.

I will acknowledge that it seems your point hasn't been fully acknowledged,
but I don't think it's a very strong point. Perhaps the phrase, "to the
extent possible" has been omitted from some explanations of Wikimedia's
commitment to transparency and equality, but I don't think that has
decreased the overall clarity. Yes, Wikimedia is not absolutely
transparent, and yes, I know you know that. But considering that nobody
realistically expected or expects the organization to be absolutely
transparent and equal, as that would come at the cost of functionality, it
doesn't really make sense to complain about that. And it doesn't represent
a deviation from founding principles.

Best,
parker



On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 12:53 PM, James Rigg
<jamesrigg1974@googlemail.com>wrote:

> I do not "describe how - in your opinion - the conduct of the English
> Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation don't live up to those
> principles".
>
> I'm actually simply pointing-out that the *stated* semi-transparency,
> and hierarchical structure, of Wikipedia/Wikimedia is contrary to the
> *stated* principles of transparency and no hierarchy.
>
> Nowhere in this thread have I stated that this is a good or bad thing
> in relation to Wikipedia/Wikimedia.
>
> James
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 8:37 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:
> > I don't see the conflict James Riggs is describing. You point to
> statements
> > of principles by Jimmy Wales, and then describe how - in your opinion -
> the
> > conduct of the English Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation don't live
> up
> > to those principles. Well, that doesn't shock me and it shouldn't shock
> you.
> >
> >
> > The English Wikipedia is quite transparent, more so than perhaps any
> > community or organizational structure I've encountered. Only mailing
> lists
> > that regularly deal with personal, private information are closed to the
> > community. Nearly all decision making of any weight is done on-wiki, with
> > complete access for anyone who wants it to all or mostly all discussion
> > precursors.
> >
> > The Wikimedia Foundation is a business, and by the standards of modern
> > business it is also quite transparent. Its financial information, its
> plans,
> > its employee roster, its job descriptions, its revenue and fund raising
> > model and its long term goals are all available for your discovery. Every
> > major decision that impacts the projects is discussed publicly ahead of
> > time. That *is* transparency, in my opinion.
> >
> > When someone who self describes as a "newbie" that has not joined in
> working
> > on the Wikimedia projects posts to the Foundation mailing list describing
> > what he believes to be a material mischaracterisation, he gets a response
> > from the founder and the deputy director (and former board member) in
> short
> > order. Try doing that with General Electric, or really nearly any other
> > corporation in the world.
> >
> > Your e-mails indicate that you concluded first and asked second, so
> > hopefully you will now reconsider.
> >
> > Nathan
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
But the problem is that Wikipedia is *today* proudly portrayed to the
general public as being transparent and non-hierarchical, when it is
semi-transparent and hierarchical.

Obviously, this thread is not going anywhere, so I guess we'll just
have to agree to disagree!

James



On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Parker Higgins <parkerhiggins@gmail.com> wrote:
> I think there's two parallel conversations going on here, which is making it
> hard for anybody to come to an understanding.
>
> James, it seems like you're saying that Wikimedia (apparently) espouses
> absolute transparency and equality, and in fact only practices those virtues
> to the boundaries of common sense. That difference, between the absolute
> and the common sense, strikes you as disingenuous.
>
> Everybody else seems to be saying that Wikimedia only ever intended to run
> an organization in a manner consistent with common sense, and that realities
> of how Wikimedia is run are not, in fact, at odds with the founding
> principles, nor have the founding principles been abandoned.
>
> I will acknowledge that it seems your point hasn't been fully acknowledged,
> but I don't think it's a very strong point. Perhaps the phrase, "to the
> extent possible" has been omitted from some explanations of Wikimedia's
> commitment to transparency and equality, but I don't think that has
> decreased the overall clarity. Yes, Wikimedia is not absolutely
> transparent, and yes, I know you know that. But considering that nobody
> realistically expected or expects the organization to be absolutely
> transparent and equal, as that would come at the cost of functionality, it
> doesn't really make sense to complain about that. And it doesn't represent
> a deviation from founding principles.
>
> Best,
> parker
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 12:53 PM, James Rigg
> <jamesrigg1974@googlemail.com>wrote:
>
>> I do not "describe how - in your opinion - the conduct of the English
>> Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation don't live up to those
>> principles".
>>
>> I'm actually simply pointing-out that the *stated* semi-transparency,
>> and hierarchical structure, of Wikipedia/Wikimedia is contrary to the
>> *stated* principles of transparency and no hierarchy.
>>
>> Nowhere in this thread have I stated that this is a good or bad thing
>> in relation to Wikipedia/Wikimedia.
>>
>> James
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 8:37 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > I don't see the conflict James Riggs is describing. You point to
>> statements
>> > of principles by Jimmy Wales, and then describe how - in your opinion -
>> the
>> > conduct of the English Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation don't live
>> up
>> > to those principles. Well, that doesn't shock me and it shouldn't shock
>> you.
>> >
>> >
>> > The English Wikipedia is quite transparent, more so than perhaps any
>> > community or organizational structure I've encountered. Only mailing
>> lists
>> > that regularly deal with personal, private information are closed to the
>> > community. Nearly all decision making of any weight is done on-wiki, with
>> > complete access for anyone who wants it to all or mostly all discussion
>> > precursors.
>> >
>> > The Wikimedia Foundation is a business, and by the standards of modern
>> > business it is also quite transparent. Its financial information, its
>> plans,
>> > its employee roster, its job descriptions, its revenue and fund raising
>> > model and its long term goals are all available for your discovery. Every
>> > major decision that impacts the projects is discussed publicly ahead of
>> > time. That *is* transparency, in my opinion.
>> >
>> > When someone who self describes as a "newbie" that has not joined in
>> working
>> > on the Wikimedia projects posts to the Foundation mailing list describing
>> > what he believes to be a material mischaracterisation, he gets a response
>> > from the founder and the deputy director (and former board member) in
>> short
>> > order. Try doing that with General Electric, or really nearly any other
>> > corporation in the world.
>> >
>> > Your e-mails indicate that you concluded first and asked second, so
>> > hopefully you will now reconsider.
>> >
>> > Nathan
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > foundation-l mailing list
>> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>> >
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 3:39 PM, James Rigg
<jamesrigg1974@googlemail.com> wrote:
> But the problem is that Wikipedia is *today* proudly portrayed to the
> general public as being transparent and non-hierarchical, when it is
> semi-transparent and hierarchical.
>
> Obviously, this thread is not going anywhere, so I guess we'll just
> have to agree to disagree!
>
> James
>

Again, Wikipedia or the Foundation? and which Wikipedia? Not all
wikipedias have the same rulesets, only principles

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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
James,

Not to get all mechanistic on you, but the fact that you posted to the
Foundation list is part of the confusion as well. The focus here is
on the Foundation. If you have concerns specifically about the
English Wikipedia's transparency, that's really fodder for a different
discussion list.

Sfmammamia

On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 1:39 PM, James Rigg
<jamesrigg1974@googlemail.com> wrote:
> But the problem is that Wikipedia is *today* proudly portrayed to the
> general public as being transparent and non-hierarchical, when it is
> semi-transparent and hierarchical.
>
> Obviously, this thread is not going anywhere, so I guess we'll just
> have to agree to disagree!
>
> James
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Parker Higgins <parkerhiggins@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I think there's two parallel conversations going on here, which is making it
>> hard for anybody to come to an understanding.
>>
>> James, it seems like you're saying that Wikimedia (apparently) espouses
>> absolute transparency and equality, and in fact only practices those virtues
>> to the boundaries of common sense. That difference, between the absolute
>> and the common sense, strikes you as disingenuous.
>>
>> Everybody else seems to be saying that Wikimedia only ever intended to run
>> an organization in a manner consistent with common sense, and that realities
>> of how Wikimedia is run are not, in fact, at odds with the founding
>> principles, nor have the founding principles been abandoned.
>>
>> I will acknowledge that it seems your point hasn't been fully acknowledged,
>> but I don't think it's a very strong point. Perhaps the phrase, "to the
>> extent possible" has been omitted from some explanations of Wikimedia's
>> commitment to transparency and equality, but I don't think that has
>> decreased the overall clarity. Yes, Wikimedia is not absolutely
>> transparent, and yes, I know you know that. But considering that nobody
>> realistically expected or expects the organization to be absolutely
>> transparent and equal, as that would come at the cost of functionality, it
>> doesn't really make sense to complain about that. And it doesn't represent
>> a deviation from founding principles.
>>
>> Best,
>> parker
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 12:53 PM, James Rigg
>> <jamesrigg1974@googlemail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> I do not "describe how - in your opinion - the conduct of the English
>>> Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation don't live up to those
>>> principles".
>>>
>>> I'm actually simply pointing-out that the *stated* semi-transparency,
>>> and hierarchical structure, of Wikipedia/Wikimedia is contrary to the
>>> *stated* principles of transparency and no hierarchy.
>>>
>>> Nowhere in this thread have I stated that this is a good or bad thing
>>> in relation to Wikipedia/Wikimedia.
>>>
>>> James
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 8:37 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> > I don't see the conflict James Riggs is describing. You point to
>>> statements
>>> > of principles by Jimmy Wales, and then describe how - in your opinion -
>>> the
>>> > conduct of the English Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation don't live
>>> up
>>> > to those principles. Well, that doesn't shock me and it shouldn't shock
>>> you.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > The English Wikipedia is quite transparent, more so than perhaps any
>>> > community or organizational structure I've encountered. Only mailing
>>> lists
>>> > that regularly deal with personal, private information are closed to the
>>> > community. Nearly all decision making of any weight is done on-wiki, with
>>> > complete access for anyone who wants it to all or mostly all discussion
>>> > precursors.
>>> >
>>> > The Wikimedia Foundation is a business, and by the standards of modern
>>> > business it is also quite transparent. Its financial information, its
>>> plans,
>>> > its employee roster, its job descriptions, its revenue and fund raising
>>> > model and its long term goals are all available for your discovery. Every
>>> > major decision that impacts the projects is discussed publicly ahead of
>>> > time. That *is* transparency, in my opinion.
>>> >
>>> > When someone who self describes as a "newbie" that has not joined in
>>> working
>>> > on the Wikimedia projects posts to the Foundation mailing list describing
>>> > what he believes to be a material mischaracterisation, he gets a response
>>> > from the founder and the deputy director (and former board member) in
>>> short
>>> > order. Try doing that with General Electric, or really nearly any other
>>> > corporation in the world.
>>> >
>>> > Your e-mails indicate that you concluded first and asked second, so
>>> > hopefully you will now reconsider.
>>> >
>>> > Nathan
>>> > _______________________________________________
>>> > foundation-l mailing list
>>> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>> >
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> foundation-l mailing list
>>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>

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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 1:39 PM, James Rigg <jamesrigg1974@googlemail.com>wrote:

> But the problem is that Wikipedia is *today* proudly portrayed to the
> general public as being transparent and non-hierarchical, when it is
> semi-transparent and hierarchical.
>

Right. Wikipedia (and Wikimedia) is today being portrayed as transparent
and non-hierarchical. Some of that is Wikimedia's PR, a lot of that is just
public perception. Most people look at the claim of transparency and
non-hierarchical and presume it to mean within the boundaries of reason. If
you're not willing to make that jump, then no amount of people telling you
that they made it will help. And I expect that you'll be similarly
disappointed by many other products and organizations that don't explicitly
add the caveat of reasonability to their attributes.



>
> Obviously, this thread is not going anywhere, so I guess we'll just
> have to agree to disagree!
>


And perhaps this is the best solution!

Best,
Parker

>
> James
>
>
>
> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 9:29 PM, Parker Higgins <parkerhiggins@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > I think there's two parallel conversations going on here, which is making
> it
> > hard for anybody to come to an understanding.
> >
> > James, it seems like you're saying that Wikimedia (apparently) espouses
> > absolute transparency and equality, and in fact only practices those
> virtues
> > to the boundaries of common sense. That difference, between the absolute
> > and the common sense, strikes you as disingenuous.
> >
> > Everybody else seems to be saying that Wikimedia only ever intended to
> run
> > an organization in a manner consistent with common sense, and that
> realities
> > of how Wikimedia is run are not, in fact, at odds with the founding
> > principles, nor have the founding principles been abandoned.
> >
> > I will acknowledge that it seems your point hasn't been fully
> acknowledged,
> > but I don't think it's a very strong point. Perhaps the phrase, "to the
> > extent possible" has been omitted from some explanations of Wikimedia's
> > commitment to transparency and equality, but I don't think that has
> > decreased the overall clarity. Yes, Wikimedia is not absolutely
> > transparent, and yes, I know you know that. But considering that nobody
> > realistically expected or expects the organization to be absolutely
> > transparent and equal, as that would come at the cost of functionality,
> it
> > doesn't really make sense to complain about that. And it doesn't
> represent
> > a deviation from founding principles.
> >
> > Best,
> > parker
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 12:53 PM, James Rigg
> > <jamesrigg1974@googlemail.com>wrote:
> >
> >> I do not "describe how - in your opinion - the conduct of the English
> >> Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation don't live up to those
> >> principles".
> >>
> >> I'm actually simply pointing-out that the *stated* semi-transparency,
> >> and hierarchical structure, of Wikipedia/Wikimedia is contrary to the
> >> *stated* principles of transparency and no hierarchy.
> >>
> >> Nowhere in this thread have I stated that this is a good or bad thing
> >> in relation to Wikipedia/Wikimedia.
> >>
> >> James
> >>
> >>
> >> On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 8:37 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > I don't see the conflict James Riggs is describing. You point to
> >> statements
> >> > of principles by Jimmy Wales, and then describe how - in your opinion
> -
> >> the
> >> > conduct of the English Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation don't
> live
> >> up
> >> > to those principles. Well, that doesn't shock me and it shouldn't
> shock
> >> you.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > The English Wikipedia is quite transparent, more so than perhaps any
> >> > community or organizational structure I've encountered. Only mailing
> >> lists
> >> > that regularly deal with personal, private information are closed to
> the
> >> > community. Nearly all decision making of any weight is done on-wiki,
> with
> >> > complete access for anyone who wants it to all or mostly all
> discussion
> >> > precursors.
> >> >
> >> > The Wikimedia Foundation is a business, and by the standards of modern
> >> > business it is also quite transparent. Its financial information, its
> >> plans,
> >> > its employee roster, its job descriptions, its revenue and fund
> raising
> >> > model and its long term goals are all available for your discovery.
> Every
> >> > major decision that impacts the projects is discussed publicly ahead
> of
> >> > time. That *is* transparency, in my opinion.
> >> >
> >> > When someone who self describes as a "newbie" that has not joined in
> >> working
> >> > on the Wikimedia projects posts to the Foundation mailing list
> describing
> >> > what he believes to be a material mischaracterisation, he gets a
> response
> >> > from the founder and the deputy director (and former board member) in
> >> short
> >> > order. Try doing that with General Electric, or really nearly any
> other
> >> > corporation in the world.
> >> >
> >> > Your e-mails indicate that you concluded first and asked second, so
> >> > hopefully you will now reconsider.
> >> >
> >> > Nathan
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > foundation-l mailing list
> >> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >> >
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> foundation-l mailing list
> >> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> >> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >>
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 8:43 AM, James Rigg
<jamesrigg1974@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I think transparency *is* about making everything public, and that the
> Foundation is merely a semi-transparent organisation, and should at
> least be open about not being a completely open. I don't know enough
> about the Foundation and non-profit law to say whether the Foundation
> could or should be truly transparent, but I do think it is wrong for
> it to trade on the kudos of transparency when it is merely
> semi-transparent. And similarly for the claims I read of it being
> anti-hierarchical.

I think it may be worth drawing a distinction between the Foundation
and the work product.

Wikipedia, for example, engages in radical transparency [1] to a high
degree of approximation. Every change to every article is recorded
and open for review. Every discussion about every article is likewise
recorded. And any individual has the right to question why anything
was done.

I would say that the wiki process strives to be fully transparent.

The Foundation on the other hand is not as open, but it is certainly
more transparent than your average corporation. Whether one wants to
describe that as "translucent", "semi-transparent", or "transparent"
strikes me as mostly a semantic distinction (i.e. an argument over how
transparent is good enough for each word to apply).

The more important thing to take-away though is that the Foundation
does shoot for a culture of "openness, communication, and
accountability" [2], even if it is not always up to the "radical
transparency" standards that some people would want.

-Robert Rohde

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radical_transparency
[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_(behavior)

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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
James Rigg wrote:
> So, to put it crudely, the talk of full transparency and lack of
> hierarchy is now viewed as just naive idealism that existed at the
> start of the project, and which has now been abandoned?
>
>
This presumes that such abandonment was a conscious act. Apparent
abandonment tends to happen by default.

Ec

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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Erik Moeller <erik@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> 2009/1/10 James Rigg <jamesrigg1974@googlemail.com>:
>> Hi
>>
>> This is my first post to this list - I'm a thirtysomething newbie from
>> England. After using Wikipedia for years without getting involved, I
>> thought I should look more closely into how it all works - and
>> possibly even join the project! However, as a strong believer in the
>> importance of transparency to any organisation
>
> I am increasingly concluding that the concept of organizational
> transparency can only be fully understood if one considers the concept
> of organizational responsiveness an important accompanying principle
> (whether one believes this to be an inherent subset of transparency or
> not). I consider them separate: it is possible to publish
> organizational internals but to never engage in dialogue; it is
> possible to engage in dialogue but to not publish facts.
>
> Moreover, I believe that in order to best serve the public interest,
> both principles are necessary. Transparency, by itself, can facilitate
> necessary organizational changes if organizational flaws are made
> visible through media and the legal system. This, typically, only
> affects the deepest organizational flaws, and if the organization is
> not itself responsive to questions regarding its general practices, it
> is meaningless for most practical purposes. Moreover, poorly
> articulated raw information can lead to damaging misunderstandings
> which remain uncorrected.
>
> As a practical example, we spent a lot of time this year drafting Q&As
> for documents like the Annual Plan and the Audited Financial
> Statements, to help people understand the meaning thereof. In
> addition, we are actively engaged in discussions like this one: many
> staff members and Board members participate in mailing lists with
> stakeholders (some of those lists are open to the general public, some
> of them have principles under which access is granted).
>
> In this basic understanding, it's important to recognize that an
> organization's ability to respond to questions is not unlimited. In
> fact, it is highly limited (which was exactly the point of the phrase
> "23-people-organization" in an earlier e-mail of mine). While most
> people understand this principle in theory, in practice, any
> individual petitioner will often feel that surely their argument is
> important enough, surely their e-mail or request significant enough,
> to be heard and carefully responded to. When this is not the actual
> outcome, they will feel deeply injured by this neglect. That is human
> nature from the cradle to the grave.
>
> An organization's ability to publish information in any meaningful
> fashion (i.e. with explanations that make it actually useful) is, of
> course, equally limited. With thousands of people taking an interest
> in organizational affairs, it is almost inevitable that some question
> will not have been anticipated, and some fact will not have been
> published.
>
> Where an organization's limits are is partially determined by its
> overall human bandwidth, and partially by its allocation of internal
> resources to publishing information and responding to stakeholders.
> Does every staff member spend one hour a day on it? 4 hours? 8 hours?
> Ultimately the organization must weigh the public service it performs
> through its actual work against the important, but separate, function
> of talking about it.
>
> Finally, there are limits to transparency which are not just
> defensible but in fact ethically necessary (privacy of individual
> human beings) or simply practical (most businesses and organizations
> don't operate at very high levels of transparency, and an organization
> is not an island - it has to be able to deal with other people's
> expectations in a reasonable manner in order to function).
>
> In sum,
> * I believe transparency and organizational responsiveness must go hand in hand;
> * both are limited by an organization's capacity and must be balanced
> with its other priorities;
> * both are further limited by both ethical and practical considerations.
>
> Where the Wikimedia Foundation is concerned, I consider it to be doing
> a pretty good job, but I hope we can publish and share even more
> information, and respond even more consistently, in the future. I know
> that WMF policies and documents, even its fundraising pages, are used
> as examples and templates by other non-profits, and I'd love to see
> more of that happening.
>
> I would be interested to hear about organizations that are weighing
> and using their own resources in a fashion that better serves the
> public interest. I don't think WMF is a fully mature organization yet
> - we've only just gone through a year of "growing up" - but I would
> love to see it collaborate with other organizations and OD experts in
> eventually developing and evolving sets of best practices for
> organizations which support purpose-driven communities.

Besides Erik's points with whom I generally agree, I want to say that
James has the point (or, at least, I see that point).

First of all, it should be noted that Jimmy's statement is a political
one. And according to his place at the Wikipedia and Wikimedia, it has
significant value. But, AFAIK, Jimmy has just some formal powers at
the English Wikipedia, which is the product of community's decision.
In the vast majority of cases his real influence is comparable to any
other Wiki[pm]edian. His statement is important (and I fully support
it), but it has to be read in the sense of proclaimed wish, not in the
sense of the rule.

But, James has the point related to gap between our (not just Jimmy's)
perception of our work and our reality; something very close to
doublethink. Because:

* Cabal doesn't exist, I may confirm that as someone who is following
a number of private lists.
* Elite exists. This is particularly visible at the projects. We are
very close to the position when we will be denying this fact even it
is an obvious truth. Becoming a part of "the elite" is becoming more
and more harder.
* Hierarchy exists, too. All over Wikimedia projects admins are able
to do much more than they should be. Complaining about admin abuse by
newcomers usually finishes somewhere in the corrupted nepotist system.
* Structure exists and this is a not so bad thing. I would say that
Jimmy wasn't enough precise about that.

I think that we need to do something before our structure becomes too
bureaucratized. Anyone who lived in one of the former socialist states
may confirm the path: from a great idea and friendly relations, via
very friendly relations between some persons, to a dysfunctional and
bizarre system. And, of course, doublethink was everywhere: Everybody
have to eat, except the most are hungry; everybody are equal, but some
are more equal...

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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
James Rigg writes:

> As a member of the Wikimedia staff, using sarcasm - in both the post
> title and contents - against another contributor to the list isn't
> very professional.

Please. I try to use my sarcasm professionally!

> People understand that freedom of speech does not mean that someone
> has the right to falsely shout 'fire' in a crowded cinema, but people
> also understand that calling an organisation transparent, when it is
> in fact semi-transparent, is misleading.

It's only misleading if one chooses to understand "transparency" in
the naive way that some might choose to understand "freedom of speech."


--Mike




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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 9:35 AM, Mike Godwin <mgodwin@wikimedia.org> wrote:

> > People understand that freedom of speech does not mean that someone
> > has the right to falsely shout 'fire' in a crowded cinema, but people
> > also understand that calling an organisation transparent, when it is
> > in fact semi-transparent, is misleading.
>
> It's only misleading if one chooses to understand "transparency" in
> the naive way that some might choose to understand "freedom of speech."


It's also misleading if one considers that the term "transparency" and the
term "freedom of speech" are not comparable in this way. Absolute and
complete freedom of speech is a good thing. Absolute and complete
transparency isn't. But then, I think we've had this conversation before,
and you don't agree with the first of those two sentences?
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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
2009/1/11 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:

> It's also misleading if one considers that the term "transparency" and the
> term "freedom of speech" are not comparable in this way. Absolute and
> complete freedom of speech is a good thing. Absolute and complete
> transparency isn't. But then, I think we've had this conversation before,
> and you don't agree with the first of those two sentences?


You've already stated you don't contribute any more and haven't for a
couple of years. What is your purpose for being on this list?


- d.

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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 2:15 PM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2009/1/11 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
>
> > It's also misleading if one considers that the term "transparency" and
> the
> > term "freedom of speech" are not comparable in this way. Absolute and
> > complete freedom of speech is a good thing. Absolute and complete
> > transparency isn't. But then, I think we've had this conversation
> before,
> > and you don't agree with the first of those two sentences?
>
> You've already stated you don't contribute any more and haven't for a
> couple of years. What is your purpose for being on this list?
>

My purpose is to learn. What's yours?
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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
2009/1/12 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
> On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 2:15 PM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2009/1/11 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:

>> > It's also misleading if one considers that the term "transparency" and
>> the
>> > term "freedom of speech" are not comparable in this way. Absolute and
>> > complete freedom of speech is a good thing. Absolute and complete
>> > transparency isn't. But then, I think we've had this conversation
>> before,
>> > and you don't agree with the first of those two sentences?

>> You've already stated you don't contribute any more and haven't for a
>> couple of years. What is your purpose for being on this list?

> My purpose is to learn. What's yours?


To actually work for the benefit of the projects. Your appears
indistinguishable from trolling.


- d.

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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
On Sun, Jan 11, 2009 at 7:24 PM, David Gerard <dgerard@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2009/1/12 Anthony <wikimail@inbox.org>:
> > My purpose is to learn. What's yours?
>
> To actually work for the benefit of the projects.


To benefit them in what way? By ignoring all the problems and pretending
everything is always perfect?
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Re: transparency or translucency? [ In reply to ]
James Rigg wrote:

> does seem to be referring to not just content, but also the
> running of Wikipedia. But the 'private' mailing lists which now
> exist seem to be a departure from this.

Departure from what? From your original imagination, or from some
policy that was posted (where? when? citation needed!).

Do you publish every private e-mail and phone call you receive?
That is what "total" transparency would mean, and nobody wants
that. It would block every kind of communication.

The employees and board members of the foundation can send private
e-mail between themselves, and they can use the internal mailing
list. Both are closed forms of communication, and if the list
wasn't there, private e-mail would be used instead. You're not
making that information more open by closing the internal mailing
list.

If you want improved transparency from the Wikimedia Foundation,
you need to provide real examples of types of information that you
want access to, that you fail to find today. You will never be
able to get "everything".


--
Lars Aronsson (lars@aronsson.se)
Aronsson Datateknik - http://aronsson.se

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