Mailing List Archive

> 2008/12/25 Fred Bauder <fredbaud@fairpoint.net>:
>
>>> Can you and Kurt come up with a proposal that doesn't abandon our
>>> fabulously useful and marketable air of neutrality?
>
>> Yes, good thought, I think we could. After all, it is a sort of
>> cemetery.
>
>
> I suspect it would turn into a universal biographical dictionary. But
> that's useful too.
>
>
> - d.

Actually, it would not as many of the names are lost, to say nothing of
the details of their lives. But there are a few stories. More a book of
tales.

Fred


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

> Stalin died in 1953, and while there might have been
> some justification for such a project while he was still in power, now
> it is nothing more than picking at old scabs to see if they will bleed.
> What Stalin did cannot be undone, but understanding the importance of
> those events in world history is not helped by dwelling on the minutiae
> of individual tragedy.

A little study of the details might convince you otherwise. Most of those
killed were working people, many revolutionaries.

> A person entering the Holocaust Museum knows what bias
> to expect, as would a visitor to your museum. It's not our job to be
> promoting those biases.
>
> Ec

Nor to promote the bias that nothing happened.

Fred





_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

> Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
>> I fail to see how simply presenting a list of peoples' names and
>> telling their
>> stories constitutes "taking partisan sides in political disputes."
>> It's
>> educating people about the impact of these events, plain and simple.
>>
> If we cannot present the personal tragedy of those individual
> foot-soldiers who were actually pulling the triggers, we are taking
> sides.
>
> Ec

The stories of the Gestapo and MKVD operatives could be worked in. Out of
privacy considerations we might want to go a bit easy on names. This
remains true of victims too. Some remain anonymous.

Fred



_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

On Thursday 25 December 2008 03:30, Ray Saintonge wrote:
> One doesn't become truly educated when someone is playing games with
> one's emotions. That just breeds true believers and more victims of
> patriotic folly. Stalin died in 1953, and while there might have been
> some justification for such a project while he was still in power, now
> it is nothing more than picking at old scabs to see if they will bleed.

Funny, that's exactly what Khrushchev used to justify repressing those who
tried to write about the Stalinist repressions.

> What Stalin did cannot be undone, but understanding the importance of
> those events in world history is not helped by dwelling on the minutiae
> of individual tragedy.

The importance of those events extends way beyond geopolitics; their
importance IS the many millions of individual tragedies.
--
Kurt Weber
http://blog.kurtweber.us
<kmw@kurtweber.us>

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

On Thursday 25 December 2008 03:34, Ray Saintonge wrote:
> Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
> > I fail to see how simply presenting a list of peoples' names and telling
> > their stories constitutes "taking partisan sides in political disputes."
> > It's educating people about the impact of these events, plain and simple.
>
> If we cannot present the personal tragedy of those individual
> foot-soldiers who were actually pulling the triggers, we are taking sides.

Would you give up this objection if the scope of the proposal were expanded to
potentially include those individuals?

--
Kurt Weber
http://blog.kurtweber.us
<kmw@kurtweber.us>

_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

> On Thursday 25 December 2008 03:30, Ray Saintonge wrote:
>> One doesn't become truly educated when someone is playing games with
>> one's emotions. That just breeds true believers and more victims of
>> patriotic folly. Stalin died in 1953, and while there might have been
>> some justification for such a project while he was still in power, now
>> it is nothing more than picking at old scabs to see if they will bleed.
>
> Funny, that's exactly what Khrushchev used to justify repressing those
> who
> tried to write about the Stalinist repressions.
>
>> What Stalin did cannot be undone, but understanding the importance of
>> those events in world history is not helped by dwelling on the minutiae
>> of individual tragedy.
>
> The importance of those events extends way beyond geopolitics; their
> importance IS the many millions of individual tragedies.
> --
> Kurt Weber

Yes, it's the MASS in mass murder.

Fred


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
> On Thursday 25 December 2008 03:34, Ray Saintonge wrote:
>> Kurt Maxwell Weber wrote:
>>> I fail to see how simply presenting a list of peoples' names and telling
>>> their stories constitutes "taking partisan sides in political disputes."
>>> It's educating people about the impact of these events, plain and simple.
>> If we cannot present the personal tragedy of those individual
>> foot-soldiers who were actually pulling the triggers, we are taking sides.
>
> Would you give up this objection if the scope of the proposal were
expanded to
> potentially include those individuals?
>
Have you considered hosting the project outside of the auspices of the
WMF?

Best, Jon
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAklUGNAACgkQ6+ro8Pm1AtWGVACgl9K9hrDRvmFHlinPGzIVOV+H
PQYAnRvSOu5kuogLwsnzHcGcdWfC63Ww
=d+Eb
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l