Mailing List Archive

Jimbo will be talking with Thomas, so let's table this discussion until he and ChapCom are finished looking around, ok?




________________________________
From: Porantim <porantim@gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 2:12:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians

Jimbo, look, nobody here are in doubt about the honesty of this or those
person.

The discussion here is not about the people, is about the positions. Is
about the actions.

Sorry, Jimbo, but I believe, nobody here really can believe in a maniqueist
discussion like that.

I don't care if Thomas is a beatifull guy, if he can cook very well or if he
smells good. This is not the point.

The point here is: Thomas is one of the people who deny the debate. This is
the fact.

Of course I want Thomas close to us, fighting with us, but I cant't believe
in dictatorship.

If you really want to help us, you can speak with your friend Thomas about
those problemas. What do you think?

Saludos.

-- Porantim

** Sorry about my bad english. **





2008/11/25 Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>

> Nathan wrote:
> > The question is, if the characterization of the Wikimedia Brasil is
> accurate
> > (i.e. comprised mainly of non-editors, hostile to editors, authoritarian
> to
> > the extent of banning discussion of chapter composition and goals, etc.)
> > what can be done? The answer may be nothing at all, and its possible (in
> > light if Jimmy's email) that there is a misunderstanding at the source of
> > this problem.
>
> Having spent 3 days there working with Thomas morning to night, I think
> it is almost certainly some kind of misunderstanding.  Editors are very
> welcome, there is no hostility to editors, and there is no
> authoritarianism at all.  It is actually quite funny and ironic that
> this charge is being put forward, because Thomas very much takes the
> opposite approach from authoritarianism.
>
> --Jimbo
>
>
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I agree, why the hell should we blow off a couple thousand hours of work and toast a chapter? While there may be some issues in the bylaws and they still need to legally organize, there is more support for this chapter than some of the European ones.

My friend, this is starting to appear disruptive.




________________________________
From: Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:42:35 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians

Luiz Augusto wrote:
> This is what we need: to stop the current attempt and start it again

Why?


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Porantim wrote:
> Jimmy, again, the problem isn't personal. Please, dont't try to take this
> way.

No, I don't think the problem is personal. I think it's a
misunderstanding, and you requested that I talk to Thomas about it. I will.

--Jimbo

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Geoffrey...

The guy whit you are talking is one of the best sysops on pt.wikipedia.
Don't be maniqueist please.

The case is: Thomas is a good guy... but in the mailing list he stopped all
the process of consensus. The problem is not just a discussion of Porantim
and Thomas... are more of 10 wikipedist that agree whit Porantim, me and
Luiz Augusto. Don't ut that in terms of "dispurtive", "vandal" or anything
about that...

We are discuss the bylaws again... because that mensage of Luiz. Before that
Thomas and another user don't permit the dialog.

Att, Béria Lima

2008/11/25 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>

> I agree, why the hell should we blow off a couple thousand hours of work
> and toast a chapter? While there may be some issues in the bylaws and they
> still need to legally organize, there is more support for this chapter than
> some of the European ones.
>
> My friend, this is starting to appear disruptive.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:42:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
>
> Luiz Augusto wrote:
> > This is what we need: to stop the current attempt and start it again
>
> Why?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>
>
>
>
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2008/11/25 Béria Lima <berialima@gmail.com>:
> Geoffrey...
>
> The guy whit you are talking is one of the best sysops on pt.wikipedia.
> Don't be maniqueist please.
>
> The case is: Thomas is a good guy... but in the mailing list he stopped all
> the process of consensus. The problem is not just a discussion of Porantim
> and Thomas... are more of 10 wikipedist that agree whit Porantim, me and
> Luiz Augusto. Don't ut that in terms of "dispurtive", "vandal" or anything
> about that...
>
> We are discuss the bylaws again... because that mensage of Luiz. Before that
> Thomas and another user don't permit the dialog.

How about some (translated) quotes so we can see what was really going
on? Text can be a very inaccurate way of conveying ones point, perhaps
Thomas was just misunderstood? Judging by Jimbo's assessment of the
guy and your assessment of the situation, it seems the most likely
explanation is that there has been a misunderstanding somewhere.
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I am sorry if I am misunderstanding something, but reading the
Google-translated versions of the quoted e-mails, they seem to all come
from Rodrigo Tetsuo Argenton, so in solving any misunderstanding his
opinions should be heard, and to make this discussion more constructive,
maybe we could leave the character of Tomas out of it, if he isn't the one
with whom some members of WM Brasil have a misunderstanding.
--
Bence Damokos

For those who have lost the first mails in this discussion, from Porantis'
e-mail dated Nov 24, 2008 at 2:30 AM:
[2]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediabr-l/2008-November/000296.html
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediabr-l/2008-November/000357.html
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediabr-l/2008-October/000080.html
[4]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediabr-l/2008-November/000301.html
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediabr-l/2008-November/000310.html
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediabr-l/2008-November/000316.html
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediabr-l/2008-November/000351.html

[5]
http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediabr-l/2008-November/000328.html

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 12:12 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com>wrote:

> 2008/11/25 Béria Lima <berialima@gmail.com>:
> > Geoffrey...
> >
> > The guy whit you are talking is one of the best sysops on pt.wikipedia.
> > Don't be maniqueist please.
> >
> > The case is: Thomas is a good guy... but in the mailing list he stopped
> all
> > the process of consensus. The problem is not just a discussion of
> Porantim
> > and Thomas... are more of 10 wikipedist that agree whit Porantim, me and
> > Luiz Augusto. Don't ut that in terms of "dispurtive", "vandal" or
> anything
> > about that...
> >
> > We are discuss the bylaws again... because that mensage of Luiz. Before
> that
> > Thomas and another user don't permit the dialog.
>
> How about some (translated) quotes so we can see what was really going
> on? Text can be a very inaccurate way of conveying ones point, perhaps
> Thomas was just misunderstood? Judging by Jimbo's assessment of the
> guy and your assessment of the situation, it seems the most likely
> explanation is that there has been a misunderstanding somewhere.
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Beria,

I meant no offense by my remarks. I apologize if any was taken, that was not the point. By disruptive, I was not referring to Luiz, but the request to kill a chapter, for the reasons listed below.

I don't believe that killing the manifestation of thousands of hours of work is going to solve any dispute. I am going off what we have currently. As far as I can see, we have an assertion that work on bylaws was silenced by Thomas. We have two people that vouch for his character (Mr. Wales, you). We do not have any hard evidence proving that Thomas killed the discussion. If there is some, we should see it. Otherwise, it appears that this is simple dissatisfaction which in my not so humble opinion has no place on this list.


Since some people may be unable to follow this thread, I have translated my comments into something that resembles Portuguese.

Respectfully Yours;

Geoffrey Plourde

-----
Beria,

Eu quis dizer que não ofenda por minhas observações.
Peço desculpas se alguma foi tomada, não foi esse o ponto. Por
perturbador, não me referia ao Luiz, mas o pedido de matar um capítulo,
pelos motivos listados abaixo.

Não creio que matar a
manifestação de milhares de horas de trabalho está indo para resolver
qualquer litígio. Eu vou desligar o que temos actualmente. Tanto quanto
eu posso ver, temos um trabalho em alegação de que foi silenciada pelo
Estatuto Social Thomas. Temos duas pessoas que atestam a sua personagem
(Mr. País de Gales, você). Nós não temos qualquer evidência sólida de
provar que Thomas mataram a discussão. Se houver algum, que devemos
encará-la. Caso contrário, parece que este é simples insatisfação que,
na minha modesta opinião não assim não tem lugar nesta lista.

Uma vez que algumas pessoas pode não ser capaz de seguir essa linha, eu
tenho o meu comentário traduzido em algo que se assemelha Português.

Yours respeitosamente;

Geoffrey Plourde


________________________________
From: Béria Lima <berialima@gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 3:08:40 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians

Geoffrey...

The guy whit you are talking is one of the best sysops on pt.wikipedia.
Don't be maniqueist please.

The case is: Thomas is a good guy... but in the mailing list he stopped all
the process of consensus. The problem is not just a discussion of Porantim
and Thomas... are more of 10 wikipedist that agree whit Porantim, me and
Luiz Augusto. Don't ut that in terms of "dispurtive", "vandal" or anything
about that...

We are discuss the bylaws again... because that mensage of Luiz. Before that
Thomas and another user don't permit the dialog.

Att, Béria Lima

2008/11/25 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>

> I agree, why the hell should we blow off a couple thousand hours of work
> and toast a chapter? While there may be some issues in the bylaws and they
> still need to legally organize, there is more support for this chapter than
> some of the European ones.
>
> My friend, this is starting to appear disruptive.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:42:35 AM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
>
> Luiz Augusto wrote:
> > This is what we need: to stop the current attempt and start it again
>
> Why?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Geoffrey,

We came here, on this list, looking for other opinions. Looking for any kind
of light.

We don't really need that you *make* somethink, but we need your expertise,
we need your view, your look [I don't know how I can say that].

We came here to open your eyes about the danger of a chapter without clear
positions can make, too.

Nobody says "work on bylaws was silenced *by Thomas*", but the evidences of
the problems is in our discussion list. Unfortunately, we can't translate
all the messages to english to show that and I think you have a lot of other
issues to take care.

Nobody request to "kill" a chapter too. We request to start again. Start
again because the process has transformed in a addicted process. *This*
addicted process is "killing the manifestation of thousands of hours of
work". You see?

Any way, perhaps this conversation can't make anythink more.

When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more have
to say. When he puts his friendship against the interests of the community,
no more remain to do.

You know, Jimmy is a kind of symbol to some us, maybe all of us. Then, when
he puts this conversation in that maniqueist form, I don't know what more
remain.

Jimmy has feelings about Thomas. That's OK to me, but there is no argument
against that, when that is de unique argument.

I apologize to do you lost your time.

My hope is that I am wrong (and the remain of brazillian wikimedians) and
Jimmy and his friend are rigth.

I apologize too if any of my words sounds offensive. I can't speak english
well.

Thanks Geoffrey about your care in try to translate your messages to
portuguese.

Saludos

-- Porantim




2008/11/26 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>

> Beria,
>
> I meant no offense by my remarks. I apologize if any was taken, that was
> not the point. By disruptive, I was not referring to Luiz, but the request
> to kill a chapter, for the reasons listed below.
>
> I don't believe that killing the manifestation of thousands of hours of
> work is going to solve any dispute. I am going off what we have currently.
> As far as I can see, we have an assertion that work on bylaws was silenced
> by Thomas. We have two people that vouch for his character (Mr. Wales, you).
> We do not have any hard evidence proving that Thomas killed the discussion.
> If there is some, we should see it. Otherwise, it appears that this is
> simple dissatisfaction which in my not so humble opinion has no place on
> this list.
>
>
> Since some people may be unable to follow this thread, I have translated my
> comments into something that resembles Portuguese.
>
> Respectfully Yours;
>
> Geoffrey Plourde
>
> -----
> Beria,
>
> Eu quis dizer que não ofenda por minhas observações.
> Peço desculpas se alguma foi tomada, não foi esse o ponto. Por
> perturbador, não me referia ao Luiz, mas o pedido de matar um capítulo,
> pelos motivos listados abaixo.
>
> Não creio que matar a
> manifestação de milhares de horas de trabalho está indo para resolver
> qualquer litígio. Eu vou desligar o que temos actualmente. Tanto quanto
> eu posso ver, temos um trabalho em alegação de que foi silenciada pelo
> Estatuto Social Thomas. Temos duas pessoas que atestam a sua personagem
> (Mr. País de Gales, você). Nós não temos qualquer evidência sólida de
> provar que Thomas mataram a discussão. Se houver algum, que devemos
> encará-la. Caso contrário, parece que este é simples insatisfação que,
> na minha modesta opinião não assim não tem lugar nesta lista.
>
> Uma vez que algumas pessoas pode não ser capaz de seguir essa linha, eu
> tenho o meu comentário traduzido em algo que se assemelha Português.
>
> Yours respeitosamente;
>
> Geoffrey Plourde
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Béria Lima <berialima@gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 3:08:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
>
> Geoffrey...
>
> The guy whit you are talking is one of the best sysops on pt.wikipedia.
> Don't be maniqueist please.
>
> The case is: Thomas is a good guy... but in the mailing list he stopped all
> the process of consensus. The problem is not just a discussion of Porantim
> and Thomas... are more of 10 wikipedist that agree whit Porantim, me and
> Luiz Augusto. Don't ut that in terms of "dispurtive", "vandal" or anything
> about that...
>
> We are discuss the bylaws again... because that mensage of Luiz. Before
> that
> Thomas and another user don't permit the dialog.
>
> Att, Béria Lima
>
> 2008/11/25 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>
>
> > I agree, why the hell should we blow off a couple thousand hours of work
> > and toast a chapter? While there may be some issues in the bylaws and
> they
> > still need to legally organize, there is more support for this chapter
> than
> > some of the European ones.
> >
> > My friend, this is starting to appear disruptive.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>
> > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:42:35 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
> >
> > Luiz Augusto wrote:
> > > This is what we need: to stop the current attempt and start it again
> >
> > Why?
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
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Porantim wrote:
> When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more have
> to say. When he puts his friendship against the interests of the community,
> no more remain to do.
>
> You know, Jimmy is a kind of symbol to some us, maybe all of us. Then, when
> he puts this conversation in that maniqueist form, I don't know what more
> remain.
>
> Jimmy has feelings about Thomas. That's OK to me, but there is no argument
> against that, when that is de unique argument.

Porantim, I would like to be your friend as well. Please don't take
anything that I have said as being a matter of taking sides against you
or for Thomas *and* especially not supposing that I have any opinion on
the proposed bylaw changes (I don't even know what they are).

All that I have said is that I met Thomas, and based on what I know of
him, he will be a peace seeker and he has no interest in being any kind
of boss or tyrant of the chapter process. Nor is he an aggressive
person. I found the suggestions (I don't know who made them first,
perhaps not you) that the chapter might be at risk of being used for
purposes of money laundering to be a bit over top, and I felt it
important to mention what little I do know.

Again, I will meet with Thomas, and I will ask him what is going on, and
I will recommend to him that everyone should make peace.

It is not helpful to suppose that I am putting my "friendship against
the interests of the community".

--Jimbo


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This subject line is very strange to me: "A chapter without Wikimedians". A
member of a Wikimedia organisation is a Wikimedian by definition, he is
someone who supports with his fee and his invested sparetime the Wikimedia
goals.

If someone calls a fellow member "a non Wikimedian", this is at least rude.
If someone claims that a fellow member has other goals than Wikimedia and
wants to take abuse of the organisation, that is a very serious allegation.
An allegation that is better based on evidence and not on stomach feelings.

As others have already said, a good Wikimedian is not necessarily an
extensive editor. I know of a senior member of Wikimedia Deutschland who is
very, very active for our goals, but he told me that he was not allowed to
vote for the WMF board this year, because he did not make enough edits the
months before.

Ziko

2008/11/26 Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>

> Porantim wrote:
> > When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more
> have
> > to say. When he puts his friendship against the interests of the
> community,
> > no more remain to do.
> >
> > You know, Jimmy is a kind of symbol to some us, maybe all of us. Then,
> when
> > he puts this conversation in that maniqueist form, I don't know what more
> > remain.
> >
> > Jimmy has feelings about Thomas. That's OK to me, but there is no
> argument
> > against that, when that is de unique argument.
>
> Porantim, I would like to be your friend as well. Please don't take
> anything that I have said as being a matter of taking sides against you
> or for Thomas *and* especially not supposing that I have any opinion on
> the proposed bylaw changes (I don't even know what they are).
>
> All that I have said is that I met Thomas, and based on what I know of
> him, he will be a peace seeker and he has no interest in being any kind
> of boss or tyrant of the chapter process. Nor is he an aggressive
> person. I found the suggestions (I don't know who made them first,
> perhaps not you) that the chapter might be at risk of being used for
> purposes of money laundering to be a bit over top, and I felt it
> important to mention what little I do know.
>
> Again, I will meet with Thomas, and I will ask him what is going on, and
> I will recommend to him that everyone should make peace.
>
> It is not helpful to suppose that I am putting my "friendship against
> the interests of the community".
>
> --Jimbo
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Ziko van Dijk
NL-Silvolde
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Ziko,

Maybe the problem is my very poor english and I can't explain what I really
think.

There is *no* "Wikimedia organisation" in Brazil. There is no "allegation"
about nothing. There is facts about *proposed* chapter.

I suggest you to read the messas in beggining of this thread.

Exept Jimb, nobody wrote about "feelings".

The problem don't is people with no edits participate of the chapter, the
problem is deny editors to participate.

Well, that's it.

Saludos

-- Porantim




2008/11/26 Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk@googlemail.com>

> This subject line is very strange to me: "A chapter without Wikimedians". A
> member of a Wikimedia organisation is a Wikimedian by definition, he is
> someone who supports with his fee and his invested sparetime the Wikimedia
> goals.
>
> If someone calls a fellow member "a non Wikimedian", this is at least rude.
> If someone claims that a fellow member has other goals than Wikimedia and
> wants to take abuse of the organisation, that is a very serious allegation.
> An allegation that is better based on evidence and not on stomach feelings.
>
> As others have already said, a good Wikimedian is not necessarily an
> extensive editor. I know of a senior member of Wikimedia Deutschland who is
> very, very active for our goals, but he told me that he was not allowed to
> vote for the WMF board this year, because he did not make enough edits the
> months before.
>
> Ziko
>
> 2008/11/26 Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>
>
> > Porantim wrote:
> > > When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more
> > have
> > > to say. When he puts his friendship against the interests of the
> > community,
> > > no more remain to do.
> > >
> > > You know, Jimmy is a kind of symbol to some us, maybe all of us. Then,
> > when
> > > he puts this conversation in that maniqueist form, I don't know what
> more
> > > remain.
> > >
> > > Jimmy has feelings about Thomas. That's OK to me, but there is no
> > argument
> > > against that, when that is de unique argument.
> >
> > Porantim, I would like to be your friend as well. Please don't take
> > anything that I have said as being a matter of taking sides against you
> > or for Thomas *and* especially not supposing that I have any opinion on
> > the proposed bylaw changes (I don't even know what they are).
> >
> > All that I have said is that I met Thomas, and based on what I know of
> > him, he will be a peace seeker and he has no interest in being any kind
> > of boss or tyrant of the chapter process. Nor is he an aggressive
> > person. I found the suggestions (I don't know who made them first,
> > perhaps not you) that the chapter might be at risk of being used for
> > purposes of money laundering to be a bit over top, and I felt it
> > important to mention what little I do know.
> >
> > Again, I will meet with Thomas, and I will ask him what is going on, and
> > I will recommend to him that everyone should make peace.
> >
> > It is not helpful to suppose that I am putting my "friendship against
> > the interests of the community".
> >
> > --Jimbo
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ziko van Dijk
> NL-Silvolde
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Geoffrey,
I have been working with Luis and other guys as translators for years.
Their devotion is much appreciated and I know them thoughtful, patient
and experience Wikimedians who are deeply concerned about their
project and thus its relationship to the real world.

Personally I am afraid Jimmy is too relying on his personal recent
experience and tend to weigh less those people from the lusophone
editing community than it should be, specially in the circumstance no
objection toward them and support for the "chapter guys" has come from
the editing community. "Believe me, he is a good guy" is no strong
argument at least for me which esteem those wikipedian's long
experience, devotion and their usual patient attitude to deal with
things.

Cheers,

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If you are convinced that this is not personal, and that there is an issue, then please provide evidence. Otherwise, this looks like bunch of people who are unhappy because their proposal wasn't passed.
>
> Geoffrey Plourde
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Porantim <porantim@gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 2:40:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
>
> Jimmy, again, the problem isn't personal. Please, dont't try to take this
> way.
>
> -- Porantim
>
>
> 2008/11/25 Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>
>
>> Porantim wrote:
>> > The point here is: Thomas is one of the people who deny the debate. This
>> is
>> > the fact.
>> >
>> > Of course I want Thomas close to us, fighting with us, but I cant't
>> believe
>> > in dictatorship.
>> >
>> > If you really want to help us, you can speak with your friend Thomas
>> about
>> > those problemas. What do you think?
>>
>> In my experience with Thomas, he does not seem like the kind of person
>> who would be denying the opportunity for people to debate, and indeed,
>> he was quite clear with me that he's not a dictator (indeed, I got quite
>> the opposite idea from him, that he's a believer in lots of independent
>> action loosely coordinated... the wiki way).
>>
>> I am meeting Thomas on Friday, and of course this will be our main topic
>> of conversation.
>>
>> I really think these issues should be quite easy to resolve.
>>
>> --Jimbo
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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2008/11/26 Porantim <porantim@gmail.com>

>
> The problem don't is people with no edits participate of the chapter, the
> problem is deny editors to participate.
>

Sounds pretty much like an allegation to me. Make it hard.
Ziko
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Porantim wrote:
> The problem don't is people with no edits participate of the chapter, the
> problem is deny editors to participate.

Porantim, I hear what you are saying and I agree with you. There should
never be a chapter which denies that participation of editors. I'll go
even further: there should never be a chapter, particularly a new
chapter, which is not put together and managed by the local editing
community (with of course the welcome assistance of people who don't
enjoy editing but do enjoy doing all the other things that a chapter
will do.)

I am sure that Thomas agrees, based on conversations that we had, and if
he doesn't, then I will work to change his mind. When I spoke with him,
he did not want to be the leader of the chapter, and he spoke a lot
about how it should take some time to form the chapter properly.

I can't read Portuguese, so I can't really find out how communication
broke down. But my only goal in all this is to encourage everyone to
talk openly in a friendly way because as far as I can see, everyone
agrees on all the important points.

--Jimbo


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I mean no disrespect to anyone. Unfortunately, this all hinges on strength of character. I am confident that many are like me and little experience with any of these users. I can muddle through Portuguese, so if someone can point me to where discussion broke down or where there is proof, then we will have something to go on.




________________________________
From: Aphaia <aphaia@gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 6:06:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians

Geoffrey,
I have been working with Luis and other guys as translators for years.
Their devotion is much appreciated and I know them thoughtful, patient
and experience Wikimedians who are deeply concerned about their
project and thus its relationship to the real world.

Personally I am afraid Jimmy is too relying on his personal recent
experience and tend to weigh less those people from the lusophone
editing community than it should be, specially in the circumstance no
objection toward them and support for the "chapter guys" has come from
the editing community. "Believe me, he is a good guy" is no strong
argument at least for me which esteem those wikipedian's long
experience, devotion and their usual patient attitude to deal with
things.

Cheers,

On Wed, Nov 26, 2008 at 7:44 AM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com> wrote:
> If you are convinced that this is not personal, and that there is an issue, then please provide evidence. Otherwise, this looks like bunch of people who are unhappy because their proposal wasn't passed.
>
> Geoffrey Plourde
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Porantim <porantim@gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 2:40:29 PM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
>
> Jimmy, again, the problem isn't personal. Please, dont't try to take this
> way.
>
> -- Porantim
>
>
> 2008/11/25 Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>
>
>> Porantim wrote:
>> > The point here is: Thomas is one of the people who deny the debate. This
>> is
>> > the fact.
>> >
>> > Of course I want Thomas close to us, fighting with us, but I cant't
>> believe
>> > in dictatorship.
>> >
>> > If you really want to help us, you can speak with your friend Thomas
>> about
>> > those problemas. What do you think?
>>
>> In my experience with Thomas, he does not seem like the kind of person
>> who would be denying the opportunity for people to debate, and indeed,
>> he was quite clear with me that he's not a dictator (indeed, I got quite
>> the opposite idea from him, that he's a believer in lots of independent
>> action loosely coordinated... the wiki way).
>>
>> I am meeting Thomas on Friday, and of course this will be our main topic
>> of conversation.
>>
>> I really think these issues should be quite easy to resolve.
>>
>> --Jimbo
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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Porantim;

I mean you no disrespect, but we really need to see proof of discussion being monopolized.

Sincerely;

Geoffrey Plourde

-----


Porantim;

Quer dizer que você não desrespeitar, mas nós realmente precisamos de ver a prova de discussão a ser monopolizada.

Atenciosamente;

Geoffrey Plourde






________________________________
From: Porantim <porantim@gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians

Ziko,

Maybe the problem is my very poor english and I can't explain what I really
think.

There is *no* "Wikimedia organisation" in Brazil. There is no "allegation"
about nothing. There is facts about *proposed* chapter.

I suggest you to read the messas in beggining of this thread.

Exept Jimb, nobody wrote about "feelings".

The problem don't is people with no edits participate of the chapter, the
problem is deny editors to participate.

Well, that's it.

Saludos

-- Porantim




2008/11/26 Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk@googlemail.com>

> This subject line is very strange to me: "A chapter without Wikimedians". A
> member of a Wikimedia organisation is a Wikimedian by definition, he is
> someone who supports with his fee and his invested sparetime the Wikimedia
> goals.
>
> If someone calls a fellow member "a non Wikimedian", this is at least rude.
> If someone claims that a fellow member has other goals than Wikimedia and
> wants to take abuse of the organisation, that is a very serious allegation.
> An allegation that is better based on evidence and not on stomach feelings.
>
> As others have already said, a good Wikimedian is not necessarily an
> extensive editor. I know of a senior member of Wikimedia Deutschland who is
> very, very active for our goals, but he told me that he was not allowed to
> vote for the WMF board this year, because he did not make enough edits the
> months before.
>
> Ziko
>
> 2008/11/26 Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>
>
> > Porantim wrote:
> > > When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more
> > have
> > > to say. When he puts his friendship against the interests of the
> > community,
> > > no more remain to do.
> > >
> > > You know, Jimmy is a kind of symbol to some us, maybe all of us. Then,
> > when
> > > he puts this conversation in that maniqueist form, I don't know what
> more
> > > remain.
> > >
> > > Jimmy has feelings about Thomas. That's OK to me, but there is no
> > argument
> > > against that, when that is de unique argument.
> >
> > Porantim, I would like to be your friend as well. Please don't take
> > anything that I have said as being a matter of taking sides against you
> > or for Thomas *and* especially not supposing that I have any opinion on
> > the proposed bylaw changes (I don't even know what they are).
> >
> > All that I have said is that I met Thomas, and based on what I know of
> > him, he will be a peace seeker and he has no interest in being any kind
> > of boss or tyrant of the chapter process. Nor is he an aggressive
> > person. I found the suggestions (I don't know who made them first,
> > perhaps not you) that the chapter might be at risk of being used for
> > purposes of money laundering to be a bit over top, and I felt it
> > important to mention what little I do know.
> >
> > Again, I will meet with Thomas, and I will ask him what is going on, and
> > I will recommend to him that everyone should make peace.
> >
> > It is not helpful to suppose that I am putting my "friendship against
> > the interests of the community".
> >
> > --Jimbo
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Ziko van Dijk
> NL-Silvolde
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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I agree, I have been tempted to write an essay on wikimedians, but one probably already exists.




________________________________
From: Ziko van Dijk <zvandijk@googlemail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 4:29:06 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians

This subject line is very strange to me: "A chapter without Wikimedians". A
member of a Wikimedia organisation is a Wikimedian by definition, he is
someone who supports with his fee and his invested sparetime the Wikimedia
goals.

If someone calls a fellow member "a non Wikimedian", this is at least rude.
If someone claims that a fellow member has other goals than Wikimedia and
wants to take abuse of the organisation, that is a very serious allegation.
An allegation that is better based on evidence and not on stomach feelings.

As others have already said, a good Wikimedian is not necessarily an
extensive editor. I know of a senior member of Wikimedia Deutschland who is
very, very active for our goals, but he told me that he was not allowed to
vote for the WMF board this year, because he did not make enough edits the
months before.

Ziko

2008/11/26 Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>

> Porantim wrote:
> > When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more
> have
> > to say. When he puts his friendship against the interests of the
> community,
> > no more remain to do.
> >
> > You know, Jimmy is a kind of symbol to some us, maybe all of us. Then,
> when
> > he puts this conversation in that maniqueist form, I don't know what more
> > remain.
> >
> > Jimmy has feelings about Thomas. That's OK to me, but there is no
> argument
> > against that, when that is de unique argument.
>
> Porantim, I would like to be your friend as well. Please don't take
> anything that I have said as being a matter of taking sides against you
> or for Thomas *and* especially not supposing that I have any opinion on
> the proposed bylaw changes (I don't even know what they are).
>
> All that I have said is that I met Thomas, and based on what I know of
> him, he will be a peace seeker and he has no interest in being any kind
> of boss or tyrant of the chapter process. Nor is he an aggressive
> person. I found the suggestions (I don't know who made them first,
> perhaps not you) that the chapter might be at risk of being used for
> purposes of money laundering to be a bit over top, and I felt it
> important to mention what little I do know.
>
> Again, I will meet with Thomas, and I will ask him what is going on, and
> I will recommend to him that everyone should make peace.
>
> It is not helpful to suppose that I am putting my "friendship against
> the interests of the community".
>
> --Jimbo
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Ziko van Dijk
NL-Silvolde
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Porantim, unfortunately we have a unique set of circumstances here. The fact that the discussions are in a language that many may be unable to read is a major hindrance. If you can point to the particular posts, then you will have met the proof issue. That being said, I do have some questions, mainly about why the chapter is still not legally organized, and whether or not the bylaws are legally ok as written. The membership section still disturbs me.


----


Porantim,
infelizmente, temos um único conjunto de circunstâncias aqui. O fato de
que as discussões estão em um idioma que muitos podem ser incapazes de
ler é um grande entrave. Se você pode apontar para os lugares
particular, então você vai ter atendido a prova questão. Dito isto,
ainda tenho algumas dúvidas, principalmente sobre o motivo do capítulo
ainda não está legalmente organizada, e se existem ou não são
juridicamente o estatuto social ok como está escrita. A filiação seção
ainda me perturba.




________________________________
From: Porantim <porantim@gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:27:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians

Geoffrey,

We came here, on this list, looking for other opinions. Looking for any kind
of light.

We don't really need that you *make* somethink, but we need your expertise,
we need your view, your look [I don't know how I can say that].

We came here to open your eyes about the danger of a chapter without clear
positions can make, too.

Nobody says "work on bylaws was silenced *by Thomas*", but the evidences of
the problems is in our discussion list. Unfortunately, we can't translate
all the messages to english to show that and I think you have a lot of other
issues to take care.

Nobody request to "kill" a chapter too. We request to start again. Start
again because the process has transformed in a addicted process. *This*
addicted process is "killing the manifestation of thousands of hours of
work". You see?

Any way, perhaps this conversation can't make anythink more.

When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more have
to say. When he puts his friendship against the interests of the community,
no more remain to do.

You know, Jimmy is a kind of symbol to some us, maybe all of us. Then, when
he puts this conversation in that maniqueist form, I don't know what more
remain.

Jimmy has feelings about Thomas. That's OK to me, but there is no argument
against that, when that is de unique argument.

I apologize to do you lost your time.

My hope is that I am wrong (and the remain of brazillian wikimedians) and
Jimmy and his friend are rigth.

I apologize too if any of my words sounds offensive. I can't speak english
well.

Thanks Geoffrey about your care in try to translate your messages to
portuguese.

Saludos

-- Porantim




2008/11/26 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>

> Beria,
>
> I meant no offense by my remarks. I apologize if any was taken, that was
> not the point. By disruptive, I was not referring to Luiz, but the request
> to kill a chapter, for the reasons listed below.
>
> I don't believe that killing the manifestation of thousands of hours of
> work is going to solve any dispute. I am going off what we have currently.
> As far as I can see, we have an assertion that work on bylaws was silenced
> by Thomas. We have two people that vouch for his character (Mr. Wales, you).
> We do not have any hard evidence proving that Thomas killed the discussion.
> If there is some, we should see it. Otherwise, it appears that this is
> simple dissatisfaction which in my not so humble opinion has no place on
> this list.
>
>
> Since some people may be unable to follow this thread, I have translated my
> comments into something that resembles Portuguese.
>
> Respectfully Yours;
>
> Geoffrey Plourde
>
> -----
> Beria,
>
> Eu quis dizer que não ofenda por minhas observações.
> Peço desculpas se alguma foi tomada, não foi esse o ponto. Por
> perturbador, não me referia ao Luiz, mas o pedido de matar um capítulo,
> pelos motivos listados abaixo.
>
> Não creio que matar a
> manifestação de milhares de horas de trabalho está indo para resolver
> qualquer litígio. Eu vou desligar o que temos actualmente. Tanto quanto
> eu posso ver, temos um trabalho em alegação de que foi silenciada pelo
> Estatuto Social Thomas. Temos duas pessoas que atestam a sua personagem
> (Mr. País de Gales, você). Nós não temos qualquer evidência sólida de
> provar que Thomas mataram a discussão. Se houver algum, que devemos
> encará-la. Caso contrário, parece que este é simples insatisfação que,
> na minha modesta opinião não assim não tem lugar nesta lista.
>
> Uma vez que algumas pessoas pode não ser capaz de seguir essa linha, eu
> tenho o meu comentário traduzido em algo que se assemelha Português.
>
> Yours respeitosamente;
>
> Geoffrey Plourde
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Béria Lima <berialima@gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 3:08:40 PM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
>
> Geoffrey...
>
> The guy whit you are talking is one of the best sysops on pt.wikipedia.
> Don't be maniqueist please.
>
> The case is: Thomas is a good guy... but in the mailing list he stopped all
> the process of consensus. The problem is not just a discussion of Porantim
> and Thomas... are more of 10 wikipedist that agree whit Porantim, me and
> Luiz Augusto. Don't ut that in terms of "dispurtive", "vandal" or anything
> about that...
>
> We are discuss the bylaws again... because that mensage of Luiz. Before
> that
> Thomas and another user don't permit the dialog.
>
> Att, Béria Lima
>
> 2008/11/25 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>
>
> > I agree, why the hell should we blow off a couple thousand hours of work
> > and toast a chapter? While there may be some issues in the bylaws and
> they
> > still need to legally organize, there is more support for this chapter
> than
> > some of the European ones.
> >
> > My friend, this is starting to appear disruptive.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>
> > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:42:35 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
> >
> > Luiz Augusto wrote:
> > > This is what we need: to stop the current attempt and start it again
> >
> > Why?
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
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>
>
>
>
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>
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It was probably me who made the direct correlation, but I feel that has a snowball's chance in hell of occurring. Who the hell would put money through a non profit encyclopedia? It's too much of a financially risky proposition.




________________________________
From: Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 12:05:48 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians

Porantim wrote:
> When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more have
> to say. When he puts his friendship against the interests of the community,
> no more remain to do.
>
> You know, Jimmy is a kind of symbol to some us, maybe all of us. Then, when
> he puts this conversation in that maniqueist form, I don't know what more
> remain.
>
> Jimmy has feelings about Thomas. That's OK to me, but there is no argument
> against that, when that is de unique argument.

Porantim, I would like to be your friend as well. Please don't take
anything that I have said as being a matter of taking sides against you
or for Thomas *and* especially not supposing that I have any opinion on
the proposed bylaw changes (I don't even know what they are).

All that I have said is that I met Thomas, and based on what I know of
him, he will be a peace seeker and he has no interest in being any kind
of boss or tyrant of the chapter process. Nor is he an aggressive
person. I found the suggestions (I don't know who made them first,
perhaps not you) that the chapter might be at risk of being used for
purposes of money laundering to be a bit over top, and I felt it
important to mention what little I do know.

Again, I will meet with Thomas, and I will ask him what is going on, and
I will recommend to him that everyone should make peace.

It is not helpful to suppose that I am putting my "friendship against
the interests of the community".

--Jimbo


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Geoffrey,

Here are some answers to your questions:

*1. "why the chapter is still not legally organized?"*

Since October, a legal entity could have already been created with the
approved bylaws, but I personally didn't push this forward because a
discussion about another version of the bylaws began around the same time.
Although I thought the approved bylaws were adequate, I wrote on Meta that I
agreed that we should wait until more people could be heard on the matter. I
wrote here and on our Brazilian list that I was in favour of waiting until
next February to discuss whether or not the bylaws should be changed before
legally launching the chapter, in order to give two months for more people
to provide their point of view.

A very important lesson I learned from this experience is that the lack of a
legal structure and its official representatives--which requires us to
exclusively count on the engagement of empowered volunteers working together
in a non-hierarchical way--can be very beneficial for a local chapter during
its early existence. Of course there should come a day when a legal entity
will be necessary and funds will be raised, but the history of Wikipedia,
the Wikimedia Foundation and the first projects of Wikimedia Brasil prove
that much can be done with no money at all, as long as you have many
empowered volunteers. A potential side effect is that without a
legal structure and official representatives, some people may stir up
trouble more often than usual. But I still think that this approach is the
most relevant we have.

*2. "whether or not the bylaws are legally ok as written?"*
**
Before we sent the bylaws to the Chapters Committee, they were reviewed by
Bruno Magrani, a lawyer from Creative Commons Brasil that kindly volunteered
to provide legal support.

I'm guessing that most of the readers on this list were unaware of the
details of the Brazilian Wikimedia chapter before having gotten involved in
the discussion started by Luiz Augusto. I'll do my best to answer any
further questions you may have.

Abracos,
Thomas



On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 12:48 AM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>wrote:

> Porantim, unfortunately we have a unique set of circumstances here. The
> fact that the discussions are in a language that many may be unable to read
> is a major hindrance. If you can point to the particular posts, then you
> will have met the proof issue. That being said, I do have some questions,
> mainly about why the chapter is still not legally organized, and whether or
> not the bylaws are legally ok as written. The membership section still
> disturbs me.
>
>
> ----
>
>
> Porantim,
> infelizmente, temos um único conjunto de circunstâncias aqui. O fato de
> que as discussões estão em um idioma que muitos podem ser incapazes de
> ler é um grande entrave. Se você pode apontar para os lugares
> particular, então você vai ter atendido a prova questão. Dito isto,
> ainda tenho algumas dúvidas, principalmente sobre o motivo do capítulo
> ainda não está legalmente organizada, e se existem ou não são
> juridicamente o estatuto social ok como está escrita. A filiação seção
> ainda me perturba.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Porantim <porantim@gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:27:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
>
> Geoffrey,
>
> We came here, on this list, looking for other opinions. Looking for any
> kind
> of light.
>
> We don't really need that you *make* somethink, but we need your expertise,
> we need your view, your look [I don't know how I can say that].
>
> We came here to open your eyes about the danger of a chapter without clear
> positions can make, too.
>
> Nobody says "work on bylaws was silenced *by Thomas*", but the evidences of
> the problems is in our discussion list. Unfortunately, we can't translate
> all the messages to english to show that and I think you have a lot of
> other
> issues to take care.
>
> Nobody request to "kill" a chapter too. We request to start again. Start
> again because the process has transformed in a addicted process. *This*
> addicted process is "killing the manifestation of thousands of hours of
> work". You see?
>
> Any way, perhaps this conversation can't make anythink more.
>
> When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more have
> to say. When he puts his friendship against the interests of the community,
> no more remain to do.
>
> You know, Jimmy is a kind of symbol to some us, maybe all of us. Then, when
> he puts this conversation in that maniqueist form, I don't know what more
> remain.
>
> Jimmy has feelings about Thomas. That's OK to me, but there is no argument
> against that, when that is de unique argument.
>
> I apologize to do you lost your time.
>
> My hope is that I am wrong (and the remain of brazillian wikimedians) and
> Jimmy and his friend are rigth.
>
> I apologize too if any of my words sounds offensive. I can't speak english
> well.
>
> Thanks Geoffrey about your care in try to translate your messages to
> portuguese.
>
> Saludos
>
> -- Porantim
>
>
>
>
> 2008/11/26 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>
>
> > Beria,
> >
> > I meant no offense by my remarks. I apologize if any was taken, that was
> > not the point. By disruptive, I was not referring to Luiz, but the
> request
> > to kill a chapter, for the reasons listed below.
> >
> > I don't believe that killing the manifestation of thousands of hours of
> > work is going to solve any dispute. I am going off what we have
> currently.
> > As far as I can see, we have an assertion that work on bylaws was
> silenced
> > by Thomas. We have two people that vouch for his character (Mr. Wales,
> you).
> > We do not have any hard evidence proving that Thomas killed the
> discussion.
> > If there is some, we should see it. Otherwise, it appears that this is
> > simple dissatisfaction which in my not so humble opinion has no place on
> > this list.
> >
> >
> > Since some people may be unable to follow this thread, I have translated
> my
> > comments into something that resembles Portuguese.
> >
> > Respectfully Yours;
> >
> > Geoffrey Plourde
> >
> > -----
> > Beria,
> >
> > Eu quis dizer que não ofenda por minhas observações.
> > Peço desculpas se alguma foi tomada, não foi esse o ponto. Por
> > perturbador, não me referia ao Luiz, mas o pedido de matar um capítulo,
> > pelos motivos listados abaixo.
> >
> > Não creio que matar a
> > manifestação de milhares de horas de trabalho está indo para resolver
> > qualquer litígio. Eu vou desligar o que temos actualmente. Tanto quanto
> > eu posso ver, temos um trabalho em alegação de que foi silenciada pelo
> > Estatuto Social Thomas. Temos duas pessoas que atestam a sua personagem
> > (Mr. País de Gales, você). Nós não temos qualquer evidência sólida de
> > provar que Thomas mataram a discussão. Se houver algum, que devemos
> > encará-la. Caso contrário, parece que este é simples insatisfação que,
> > na minha modesta opinião não assim não tem lugar nesta lista.
> >
> > Uma vez que algumas pessoas pode não ser capaz de seguir essa linha, eu
> > tenho o meu comentário traduzido em algo que se assemelha Português.
> >
> > Yours respeitosamente;
> >
> > Geoffrey Plourde
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Béria Lima <berialima@gmail.com>
> > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 3:08:40 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
> >
> > Geoffrey...
> >
> > The guy whit you are talking is one of the best sysops on pt.wikipedia.
> > Don't be maniqueist please.
> >
> > The case is: Thomas is a good guy... but in the mailing list he stopped
> all
> > the process of consensus. The problem is not just a discussion of
> Porantim
> > and Thomas... are more of 10 wikipedist that agree whit Porantim, me and
> > Luiz Augusto. Don't ut that in terms of "dispurtive", "vandal" or
> anything
> > about that...
> >
> > We are discuss the bylaws again... because that mensage of Luiz. Before
> > that
> > Thomas and another user don't permit the dialog.
> >
> > Att, Béria Lima
> >
> > 2008/11/25 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>
> >
> > > I agree, why the hell should we blow off a couple thousand hours of
> work
> > > and toast a chapter? While there may be some issues in the bylaws and
> > they
> > > still need to legally organize, there is more support for this chapter
> > than
> > > some of the European ones.
> > >
> > > My friend, this is starting to appear disruptive.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>
> > > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:42:35 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
> > >
> > > Luiz Augusto wrote:
> > > > This is what we need: to stop the current attempt and start it again
> > >
> > > Why?
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Thomas de Souza Buckup
thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com
+55 11 3477-2834
+55 11 9213-3931
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l

Thomas;

Thank you for your answers to my questions. I was under the impression that the chapter had been approved in February, but I must have been wrong. Since a Brazilian lawyer has cleared the bylaws, I have no further legal concerns. Am I correct in assuming now that we have a big misunderstanding?

Geoffrey




________________________________
From: Thomas de Souza Buckup <thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2008 8:57:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians

Geoffrey,

Here are some answers to your questions:

*1. "why the chapter is still not legally organized?"*

Since October, a legal entity could have already been created with the
approved bylaws, but I personally didn't push this forward because a
discussion about another version of the bylaws began around the same time.
Although I thought the approved bylaws were adequate, I wrote on Meta that I
agreed that we should wait until more people could be heard on the matter. I
wrote here and on our Brazilian list that I was in favour of waiting until
next February to discuss whether or not the bylaws should be changed before
legally launching the chapter, in order to give two months for more people
to provide their point of view.

A very important lesson I learned from this experience is that the lack of a
legal structure and its official representatives--which requires us to
exclusively count on the engagement of empowered volunteers working together
in a non-hierarchical way--can be very beneficial for a local chapter during
its early existence. Of course there should come a day when a legal entity
will be necessary and funds will be raised, but the history of Wikipedia,
the Wikimedia Foundation and the first projects of Wikimedia Brasil prove
that much can be done with no money at all, as long as you have many
empowered volunteers. A potential side effect is that without a
legal structure and official representatives, some people may stir up
trouble more often than usual. But I still think that this approach is the
most relevant we have.

*2. "whether or not the bylaws are legally ok as written?"*
**
Before we sent the bylaws to the Chapters Committee, they were reviewed by
Bruno Magrani, a lawyer from Creative Commons Brasil that kindly volunteered
to provide legal support.

I'm guessing that most of the readers on this list were unaware of the
details of the Brazilian Wikimedia chapter before having gotten involved in
the discussion started by Luiz Augusto. I'll do my best to answer any
further questions you may have.

Abracos,
Thomas



On Thu, Nov 27, 2008 at 12:48 AM, Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>wrote:

> Porantim, unfortunately we have a unique set of circumstances here. The
> fact that the discussions are in a language that many may be unable to read
> is a major hindrance. If you can point to the particular posts, then you
> will have met the proof issue. That being said, I do have some questions,
> mainly about why the chapter is still not legally organized, and whether or
> not the bylaws are legally ok as written. The membership section still
> disturbs me.
>
>
> ----
>
>
> Porantim,
> infelizmente, temos um único conjunto de circunstâncias aqui. O fato de
> que as discussões estão em um idioma que muitos podem ser incapazes de
> ler é um grande entrave. Se você pode apontar para os lugares
> particular, então você vai ter atendido a prova questão. Dito isto,
> ainda tenho algumas dúvidas, principalmente sobre o motivo do capítulo
> ainda não está legalmente organizada, e se existem ou não são
> juridicamente o estatuto social ok como está escrita. A filiação seção
> ainda me perturba.
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Porantim <porantim@gmail.com>
> To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 11:27:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
>
> Geoffrey,
>
> We came here, on this list, looking for other opinions. Looking for any
> kind
> of light.
>
> We don't really need that you *make* somethink, but we need your expertise,
> we need your view, your look [I don't know how I can say that].
>
> We came here to open your eyes about the danger of a chapter without clear
> positions can make, too.
>
> Nobody says "work on bylaws was silenced *by Thomas*", but the evidences of
> the problems is in our discussion list. Unfortunately, we can't translate
> all the messages to english to show that and I think you have a lot of
> other
> issues to take care.
>
> Nobody request to "kill" a chapter too. We request to start again. Start
> again because the process has transformed in a addicted process. *This*
> addicted process is "killing the manifestation of thousands of hours of
> work". You see?
>
> Any way, perhaps this conversation can't make anythink more.
>
> When Jimmy puts his personal feelings as the unique argument, no more have
> to say. When he puts his friendship against the interests of the community,
> no more remain to do.
>
> You know, Jimmy is a kind of symbol to some us, maybe all of us. Then, when
> he puts this conversation in that maniqueist form, I don't know what more
> remain.
>
> Jimmy has feelings about Thomas. That's OK to me, but there is no argument
> against that, when that is de unique argument.
>
> I apologize to do you lost your time.
>
> My hope is that I am wrong (and the remain of brazillian wikimedians) and
> Jimmy and his friend are rigth.
>
> I apologize too if any of my words sounds offensive. I can't speak english
> well.
>
> Thanks Geoffrey about your care in try to translate your messages to
> portuguese.
>
> Saludos
>
> -- Porantim
>
>
>
>
> 2008/11/26 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>
>
> > Beria,
> >
> > I meant no offense by my remarks. I apologize if any was taken, that was
> > not the point. By disruptive, I was not referring to Luiz, but the
> request
> > to kill a chapter, for the reasons listed below.
> >
> > I don't believe that killing the manifestation of thousands of hours of
> > work is going to solve any dispute. I am going off what we have
> currently.
> > As far as I can see, we have an assertion that work on bylaws was
> silenced
> > by Thomas. We have two people that vouch for his character (Mr. Wales,
> you).
> > We do not have any hard evidence proving that Thomas killed the
> discussion.
> > If there is some, we should see it. Otherwise, it appears that this is
> > simple dissatisfaction which in my not so humble opinion has no place on
> > this list.
> >
> >
> > Since some people may be unable to follow this thread, I have translated
> my
> > comments into something that resembles Portuguese.
> >
> > Respectfully Yours;
> >
> > Geoffrey Plourde
> >
> > -----
> > Beria,
> >
> > Eu quis dizer que não ofenda por minhas observações.
> > Peço desculpas se alguma foi tomada, não foi esse o ponto. Por
> > perturbador, não me referia ao Luiz, mas o pedido de matar um capítulo,
> > pelos motivos listados abaixo.
> >
> > Não creio que matar a
> > manifestação de milhares de horas de trabalho está indo para resolver
> > qualquer litígio. Eu vou desligar o que temos actualmente. Tanto quanto
> > eu posso ver, temos um trabalho em alegação de que foi silenciada pelo
> > Estatuto Social Thomas. Temos duas pessoas que atestam a sua personagem
> > (Mr. País de Gales, você). Nós não temos qualquer evidência sólida de
> > provar que Thomas mataram a discussão. Se houver algum, que devemos
> > encará-la. Caso contrário, parece que este é simples insatisfação que,
> > na minha modesta opinião não assim não tem lugar nesta lista.
> >
> > Uma vez que algumas pessoas pode não ser capaz de seguir essa linha, eu
> > tenho o meu comentário traduzido em algo que se assemelha Português.
> >
> > Yours respeitosamente;
> >
> > Geoffrey Plourde
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Béria Lima <berialima@gmail.com>
> > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 3:08:40 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
> >
> > Geoffrey...
> >
> > The guy whit you are talking is one of the best sysops on pt.wikipedia.
> > Don't be maniqueist please.
> >
> > The case is: Thomas is a good guy... but in the mailing list he stopped
> all
> > the process of consensus. The problem is not just a discussion of
> Porantim
> > and Thomas... are more of 10 wikipedist that agree whit Porantim, me and
> > Luiz Augusto. Don't ut that in terms of "dispurtive", "vandal" or
> anything
> > about that...
> >
> > We are discuss the bylaws again... because that mensage of Luiz. Before
> > that
> > Thomas and another user don't permit the dialog.
> >
> > Att, Béria Lima
> >
> > 2008/11/25 Geoffrey Plourde <geo.plrd@yahoo.com>
> >
> > > I agree, why the hell should we blow off a couple thousand hours of
> work
> > > and toast a chapter? While there may be some issues in the bylaws and
> > they
> > > still need to legally organize, there is more support for this chapter
> > than
> > > some of the European ones.
> > >
> > > My friend, this is starting to appear disruptive.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia-inc.com>
> > > To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 1:42:35 AM
> > > Subject: Re: [Foundation-l] A local chapter without Wikimedians
> > >
> > > Luiz Augusto wrote:
> > > > This is what we need: to stop the current attempt and start it again
> > >
> > > Why?
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
Thomas de Souza Buckup
thomasdesouzabuckup@gmail.com
+55 11 3477-2834
+55 11 9213-3931
_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l




_______________________________________________
foundation-l mailing list
foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l