Mailing List Archive

I am quite suprised that somebody is actually localizing this into Classical
Chinese / Literary Chinese.

Ian
[[User:Poeloq]]

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 10:05 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com
> wrote:

> Hoi,
> I think it makes sense to have functionality like FlaggedRevs be localised
> prior to it being enabled. Given that it is important for the editors to
> understand what is intended with Flagged Revisions. I would argue that
> localisation prior to implementation is essential. I do appreciate
> discussion this.
>
> The Hebrew localisation is at 23.05%, Ukranian at 65.60%, Hungarian at
> 89.36%, zh-classical at 5.67%, Russian at 91.13% and Alemannisch at 0%. The
> German, Esperanto and French localisation are done completely. The
> localisation is done for other languages as well, they have not requested
> it
> for now.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:Group_statistics
>
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:14 AM, Luiz Augusto <lugusto@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > According to
> > http://noc.wikimedia.org/conf/highlight.php?file=flaggedrevs.php,
> > FlaggedRevs is enabled on de.wikipedia, ru.wikipedia and en.wikinews.
> >
> > The extension is requested to get enabled on als.wikipedia
> > (bugzilla:13968),
> > de.wiktionary (13969), pt.wikinews (14254), en.wikibooks (14618),
> > he.wikisource (14648), zh-classical.wikipedia (14715), eo.wikipedia
> > (14728),
> > ru.wikiquote (14863), ru.wikisource (15006), uk.wiktionary (15335),
> > fr.wikinews (15346), hu.wikipedia (15568), pl.wikipedia (16177).
> >
> > Is there any special reason for not enabling on those wikis (like
> extension
> > still needs to be fixed for security/stability issues) or it is only the
> > usual backlog at shell requests? Is recommendable to make more requests
> at
> > this time or to wait a few more months?
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hoi,
> I think it makes sense to have functionality like FlaggedRevs be localised
> prior to it being enabled. Given that it is important for the editors to
> understand what is intended with Flagged Revisions. I would argue that
> localisation prior to implementation is essential. I do appreciate
> discussion this.
>
> The Hebrew localisation is at 23.05%, Ukranian at 65.60%, Hungarian at
> 89.36%, zh-classical at 5.67%, Russian at 91.13% and Alemannisch at 0%. The
> German, Esperanto and French localisation are done completely. The
> localisation is done for other languages as well, they have not requested
> it
> for now.
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
> http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:Group_statistics

The Hungarian version was tested on a local wiki and so the messages needed
to our particular configuration are already translated (it's actually not
that an easy job, we had to really discuss what to call the different
classes of pages and users to convey the right meaning): if I'm mistaken the
remaining messages can be translated quickly.

Full localisation did not seem to matter with other extensions (the
Collections extension was enabled on all Wikibooks' with 0% Hungarian
translation; all the new features of MediaWiki appear as untranslated
messages (although the update cycle of the live servers allows for
translating them before they go live), and still there's no outrage and once
they appear on the UI they do get translated quite quickly, with the added
knowledge of the context where they appear.

Best regards,
Bence Damokos



<http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:Group_statistics>
>
> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:14 AM, Luiz Augusto <lugusto@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > According to
> > http://noc.wikimedia.org/conf/highlight.php?file=flaggedrevs.php,
> > FlaggedRevs is enabled on de.wikipedia, ru.wikipedia and en.wikinews.
> >
> > The extension is requested to get enabled on als.wikipedia
> > (bugzilla:13968),
> > de.wiktionary (13969), pt.wikinews (14254), en.wikibooks (14618),
> > he.wikisource (14648), zh-classical.wikipedia (14715), eo.wikipedia
> > (14728),
> > ru.wikiquote (14863), ru.wikisource (15006), uk.wiktionary (15335),
> > fr.wikinews (15346), hu.wikipedia (15568), pl.wikipedia (16177).
> >
> > Is there any special reason for not enabling on those wikis (like
> extension
> > still needs to be fixed for security/stability issues) or it is only the
> > usual backlog at shell requests? Is recommendable to make more requests
> at
> > this time or to wait a few more months?
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Hoi,
When you look at the Hungarian statistics at Betawiki, Hungarian is doing
quite well with 99.76% done for the MediaWiki messages and 73.33% of the
messages ussed in Wikimedia projects. As I indicated, Flagged Revisions is
at 89,36%.

When you have localised the messages on a local server, you will have to put
an effort into getting these messages on your server. When the localisation
is done at Betawiki, you can update your server from the SVN and the
localisations will be available at all the Hungarian projects when it is
implemented.

People often do not complain when they think it is normal that new
functonality comes without localisation. It does not have to be this way;
you can have new functionality localised by keeping your localisation up to
date at Betawiki.
Thanks,
GeradM


On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 3:20 PM, Bence Damokos <bdamokos@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>wrote:
>
> > Hoi,
> > I think it makes sense to have functionality like FlaggedRevs be
> localised
> > prior to it being enabled. Given that it is important for the editors to
> > understand what is intended with Flagged Revisions. I would argue that
> > localisation prior to implementation is essential. I do appreciate
> > discussion this.
> >
> > The Hebrew localisation is at 23.05%, Ukranian at 65.60%, Hungarian at
> > 89.36%, zh-classical at 5.67%, Russian at 91.13% and Alemannisch at 0%.
> The
> > German, Esperanto and French localisation are done completely. The
> > localisation is done for other languages as well, they have not requested
> > it
> > for now.
> > Thanks,
> > GerardM
> >
> > http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:Group_statistics
>
> The Hungarian version was tested on a local wiki and so the messages
> needed
> to our particular configuration are already translated (it's actually not
> that an easy job, we had to really discuss what to call the different
> classes of pages and users to convey the right meaning): if I'm mistaken
> the
> remaining messages can be translated quickly.
>
> Full localisation did not seem to matter with other extensions (the
> Collections extension was enabled on all Wikibooks' with 0% Hungarian
> translation; all the new features of MediaWiki appear as untranslated
> messages (although the update cycle of the live servers allows for
> translating them before they go live), and still there's no outrage and
> once
> they appear on the UI they do get translated quite quickly, with the added
> knowledge of the context where they appear.
>
> Best regards,
> Bence Damokos
>
>
>
> <http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:Group_statistics>
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:14 AM, Luiz Augusto <lugusto@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > According to
> > > http://noc.wikimedia.org/conf/highlight.php?file=flaggedrevs.php,
> > > FlaggedRevs is enabled on de.wikipedia, ru.wikipedia and en.wikinews.
> > >
> > > The extension is requested to get enabled on als.wikipedia
> > > (bugzilla:13968),
> > > de.wiktionary (13969), pt.wikinews (14254), en.wikibooks (14618),
> > > he.wikisource (14648), zh-classical.wikipedia (14715), eo.wikipedia
> > > (14728),
> > > ru.wikiquote (14863), ru.wikisource (15006), uk.wiktionary (15335),
> > > fr.wikinews (15346), hu.wikipedia (15568), pl.wikipedia (16177).
> > >
> > > Is there any special reason for not enabling on those wikis (like
> > extension
> > > still needs to be fixed for security/stability issues) or it is only
> the
> > > usual backlog at shell requests? Is recommendable to make more requests
> > at
> > > this time or to wait a few more months?
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>wrote:

> Hoi,
> When you look at the Hungarian statistics at Betawiki, Hungarian is doing
> quite well with 99.76% done for the MediaWiki messages and 73.33% of the
> messages ussed in Wikimedia projects. As I indicated, Flagged Revisions is
> at 89,36%.
>
> When you have localised the messages on a local server, you will have to
> put
> an effort into getting these messages on your server. When the localisation
> is done at Betawiki, you can update your server from the SVN and the
> localisations will be available at all the Hungarian projects when it is
> implemented.

As I tried to convey, the messages needed are already translated on
Betawiki, the one's that aren't: half of them are just not counted as
translated, the other half may not even be used at all.

The local server was needed to see the extension in action: we tested the
extension on a copy of the Hungarian Wikipedia, tried out the different
messages, held local polls among translators and community members to decide
on the best names for the different pages. (Without this it would not have
been localisation, merely translation: for the remaining 10.64% you can
lobby for a translation or you can wait for it to be localised if need be).

I have nothing against BetaWiki, and I hope I didn't imply anything like
that. A note about pure statistics 100% is not always more useful than 77%:
the untranslated extensions are not seen by ordinary users (I don't see any
benefit in extending energy into translating the Global blocks extension
with no Hungarian stewards, or the CentralNotice one to which I do have
access to, but me only, and I am pretty fine with the English interface; the
third untranslated extension seems to be the checkuser extension: again not
very important with all local checkusers speaking English and not seen by
anyone else).

Thank you for reminding us and acknowledging our work, there's room for
improvement still: for some reason two important extensions have remained
untranslated until recently, but please don't try to make us feel guilty for
not doing unnecessary and possibly blind (as in never seeing the result of)
work.

Best regards,
Bence Damokos

>
>
> People often do not complain when they think it is normal that new
> functonality comes without localisation. It does not have to be this way;
> you can have new functionality localised by keeping your localisation up to
> date at Betawiki.
> Thanks,
> GeradM
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 3:20 PM, Bence Damokos <bdamokos@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Gerard Meijssen
> > <gerard.meijssen@gmail.com>wrote:
> >
> > > Hoi,
> > > I think it makes sense to have functionality like FlaggedRevs be
> > localised
> > > prior to it being enabled. Given that it is important for the editors
> to
> > > understand what is intended with Flagged Revisions. I would argue that
> > > localisation prior to implementation is essential. I do appreciate
> > > discussion this.
> > >
> > > The Hebrew localisation is at 23.05%, Ukranian at 65.60%, Hungarian at
> > > 89.36%, zh-classical at 5.67%, Russian at 91.13% and Alemannisch at 0%.
> > The
> > > German, Esperanto and French localisation are done completely. The
> > > localisation is done for other languages as well, they have not
> requested
> > > it
> > > for now.
> > > Thanks,
> > > GerardM
> > >
> > > http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:Group_statistics
> >
> > The Hungarian version was tested on a local wiki and so the messages
> > needed
> > to our particular configuration are already translated (it's actually not
> > that an easy job, we had to really discuss what to call the different
> > classes of pages and users to convey the right meaning): if I'm mistaken
> > the
> > remaining messages can be translated quickly.
> >
> > Full localisation did not seem to matter with other extensions (the
> > Collections extension was enabled on all Wikibooks' with 0% Hungarian
> > translation; all the new features of MediaWiki appear as untranslated
> > messages (although the update cycle of the live servers allows for
> > translating them before they go live), and still there's no outrage and
> > once
> > they appear on the UI they do get translated quite quickly, with the
> added
> > knowledge of the context where they appear.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Bence Damokos
> >
> >
> >
> > <http://translatewiki.net/wiki/Translating:Group_statistics>
> > >
> > > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 1:14 AM, Luiz Augusto <lugusto@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > According to
> > > > http://noc.wikimedia.org/conf/highlight.php?file=flaggedrevs.php,
> > > > FlaggedRevs is enabled on de.wikipedia, ru.wikipedia and en.wikinews.
> > > >
> > > > The extension is requested to get enabled on als.wikipedia
> > > > (bugzilla:13968),
> > > > de.wiktionary (13969), pt.wikinews (14254), en.wikibooks (14618),
> > > > he.wikisource (14648), zh-classical.wikipedia (14715), eo.wikipedia
> > > > (14728),
> > > > ru.wikiquote (14863), ru.wikisource (15006), uk.wiktionary (15335),
> > > > fr.wikinews (15346), hu.wikipedia (15568), pl.wikipedia (16177).
> > > >
> > > > Is there any special reason for not enabling on those wikis (like
> > > extension
> > > > still needs to be fixed for security/stability issues) or it is only
> > the
> > > > usual backlog at shell requests? Is recommendable to make more
> requests
> > > at
> > > > this time or to wait a few more months?
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Wikitech-l mailing list
> > > > Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
> > > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > foundation-l mailing list
> > > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> > >
> > _______________________________________________
> > foundation-l mailing list
> > foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
> >
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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Gerard wrote: "Given that it is important for the editors to understand what is intended with Flagged Revisions. I would argue that localisation prior to implementation is essential."

I would like to remind Gerard that the requests for FlaggedRevs are based on the
consensus of live wiki communities that are flourishing, building education materials in
their local languages, who value localization of the software and contribute to it, and yet
do NOT necessarily agree with Gerard on localization as a prerequisite to functionality.

On the contrary, many of us believe that unlocalized messages, when viewed live and actually used for real material (not on a test wiki) are far easier to localize little by little
(wiki style) over a period of time. The Hebrew Wikisource indeed began this way: Many
basic messages were not localized initially, and the initial contributers along with building
content on the wiki also localized the messages over time. Had substantial localization
been required in advance the wiki would probably have never been created and the
localization would thus never have been done...

Gerard, you and the Language Committee have been given authority to require substantial
localization before setting up a new language wiki. For better or worse. But you have NO
authorization to prevent active communities from getting extensions implemented
that they have requested.

We at the Hebrew Wikisource intend to finish translating the interface over time, at
Betawiki, as we encounter the system messages in real contexts. We have already been
waiting for implementation for quite a long time. We ask the developers to honor our
community request and consensus. Gerard is entitled to his opinions, but not
to force his notions on active Wikimedia communities.

Dovi
> Hoi,
> I think it makes sense to have functionality like FlaggedRevs be localised
> prior to it being enabled. Given that it is important for the editors to
> understand what is intended with Flagged Revisions. I would argue that
> localisation prior to implementation is essential. I do appreciate
> discussion this.
>
People often do not complain when they think it is normal that new
functonality comes without localisation. It does not have to be this way;
you can have new functionality localised by keeping your localisation up to
date at Betawiki.
Thanks,
GeradM






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Hoi,
The Hebrew language community has a really outstanding record when it comes
to localisation; both the MediaWiki messages and the messages used in
extensions used by the Wikimedia Foundation are completely localised at this
moment. This requires dedication that brings a big benefit to its community.


I do appreciate your sentiment about localising on life data. It makes
sense. The problem that you highlight is that it is not obvious what many of
the messages stand for. To alleviate this problem, Betawiki includes
messages explaining what these messages stand for. They are the "qqq"
messages. This is the kind of information that needs to be entered once and
benefits all the people who localise the same message in another language.

Typically it is the developer who knows best what a message is intended for.
In practice it is often people who work on the localisation who add these
pointers. Making sure that the "qqq" messages are correct and informative is
one way in which developers can make sure that their extension. their
functionality is well received. In the process they improve our localisation
environement and stimulate a higher quality exerience.

When I ask for localisation like I do for FlaggedRevs, I make the argument
personally without linking it to the policies of the language committee.
When the people who are to use new functionality all speak English, there is
no issue. However this is not the case for many of the languages that we
support.

The best way to localise is by getting it done and then regularly
maintaining the localisation. In this way both readers and editors are
supported optimally and, when a request for a new project is done,
localisation is not a factor.
Thanks,
GerardM

On Sun, Nov 16, 2008 at 10:12 PM, Dovi Jacobs <dovijacobs@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Gerard wrote: "Given that it is important for the editors to understand
> what is intended with Flagged Revisions. I would argue that localisation
> prior to implementation is essential."
>
> I would like to remind Gerard that the requests for FlaggedRevs are based
> on the
> consensus of live wiki communities that are flourishing, building education
> materials in
> their local languages, who value localization of the software and
> contribute to it, and yet
> do NOT necessarily agree with Gerard on localization as a prerequisite to
> functionality.
>
> On the contrary, many of us believe that unlocalized messages, when viewed
> live and actually used for real material (not on a test wiki) are far easier
> to localize little by little
> (wiki style) over a period of time. The Hebrew Wikisource indeed began this
> way: Many
> basic messages were not localized initially, and the initial contributers
> along with building
> content on the wiki also localized the messages over time. Had substantial
> localization
> been required in advance the wiki would probably have never been created
> and the
> localization would thus never have been done...
>
> Gerard, you and the Language Committee have been given authority to require
> substantial
> localization before setting up a new language wiki. For better or worse.
> But you have NO
> authorization to prevent active communities from getting extensions
> implemented
> that they have requested.
>
> We at the Hebrew Wikisource intend to finish translating the interface over
> time, at
> Betawiki, as we encounter the system messages in real contexts. We have
> already been
> waiting for implementation for quite a long time. We ask the developers to
> honor our
> community request and consensus. Gerard is entitled to his opinions, but
> not
> to force his notions on active Wikimedia communities.
>
> Dovi
> > Hoi,
> > I think it makes sense to have functionality like FlaggedRevs be
> localised
> > prior to it being enabled. Given that it is important for the editors to
> > understand what is intended with Flagged Revisions. I would argue that
> > localisation prior to implementation is essential. I do appreciate
> > discussion this.
> >
> People often do not complain when they think it is normal that new
> functonality comes without localisation. It does not have to be this way;
> you can have new functionality localised by keeping your localisation up to
> date at Betawiki.
> Thanks,
> GeradM
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>
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