Mailing List Archive

2008/5/2 Pharos <pharosofalexandria@gmail.com>:
> I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates
> Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the
> WMF.

That's not a promotion, it's just more work!

It could work. There is the concern that there could be a perceived
inequality between countries if the WMF plays a significant role in
only one country's "chapter" - I'm not sure if that would be a serious
problem or not.

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While I have no doubt that Cary can do this, and would in fact
do very well at it...

Don't we have a Chapters Coordinator on staff to...you know,
coordinate chapters? I might be missing something, but this
would fall under that job description, I think.

(Also, might remove some misconceptions that US chapters
are getting special treatment by having a "US Coordinator")

-Chad

On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/5/2 Pharos <pharosofalexandria@gmail.com>:
>
> > I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates
> > Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the
> > WMF.
>
> That's not a promotion, it's just more work!
>
> It could work. There is the concern that there could be a perceived
> inequality between countries if the WMF plays a significant role in
> only one country's "chapter" - I'm not sure if that would be a serious
> problem or not.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>

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> Don't we have a Chapters Coordinator on staff to...you know,
> coordinate chapters? I might be missing something, but this
> would fall under that job description, I think.

We do, but it's a part time job and Delphine isn't based in the US, so
Cary may be better suited.

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Chad wrote:
> While I have no doubt that Cary can do this, and would in fact
> do very well at it...

/me vaguely tries figuring Sue learning from the list that the job
description and title of one of her staff member has changed overnight...


> Don't we have a Chapters Coordinator on staff to...you know,
> coordinate chapters? I might be missing something, but this
> would fall under that job description, I think.
>
> (Also, might remove some misconceptions that US chapters
> are getting special treatment by having a "US Coordinator")

> -Chad
>
> On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 6:55 PM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 2008/5/2 Pharos <pharosofalexandria@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates
>> > Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the
>> > WMF.
>>
>> That's not a promotion, it's just more work!
>>
>> It could work. There is the concern that there could be a perceived
>> inequality between countries if the WMF plays a significant role in
>> only one country's "chapter" - I'm not sure if that would be a serious
>> problem or not.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> foundation-l mailing list
>> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
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>


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On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/5/2 Pharos <pharosofalexandria@gmail.com>:
>
> > I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates
> > Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the
> > WMF.
>
> That's not a promotion, it's just more work!

Hm. It may sound like a selfish ask toward another selfish ask:
Please, leave people which job is to take care about all of us to take
care about all of us. If you need a person to be a coordinator for
Wikimedia US, please, ask Sue or the Board to find another person for
that.

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On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 9:24 AM, Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 2008/5/2 Pharos <pharosofalexandria@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates
> > > Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the
> > > WMF.
> >
> > That's not a promotion, it's just more work!
>
> Hm. It may sound like a selfish ask toward another selfish ask:
> Please, leave people which job is to take care about all of us to take
> care about all of us. If you need a person to be a coordinator for
> Wikimedia US, please, ask Sue or the Board to find another person for
> that.

Seconded.

--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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2008/5/3, Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>:
> On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 2008/5/2 Pharos <pharosofalexandria@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates
> > > Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the
> > > WMF.
> >
> > That's not a promotion, it's just more work!
>
>
> Hm. It may sound like a selfish ask toward another selfish ask:
> Please, leave people which job is to take care about all of us to take
> care about all of us. If you need a person to be a coordinator for
> Wikimedia US, please, ask Sue or the Board to find another person for
> that.
>
>

Besides the fact that this is obviously within the job description of
Sue to determine (this is one of the things that the community has no
say in of course, and rightfully) I also want to state that it is
weird that you apperently feel such a need for the US, but not for
Japan, China, Africa or Russia, which, imho, have much larger cultural
and legal differences with Europe then the US...

BR, Lodewijk

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I humbly suggests Russians may have a different view of differences
between Russia and Europe, specially when they are of Europe Russia,
but besides this corner-picking, you make a good point.

On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 9:08 PM, effe iets anders
<effeietsanders@gmail.com> wrote:
> 2008/5/3, Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com>:
>
> > On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > 2008/5/2 Pharos <pharosofalexandria@gmail.com>:
> > >
> > > > I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates
> > > > Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the
> > > > WMF.
> > >
> > > That's not a promotion, it's just more work!
> >
> >
> > Hm. It may sound like a selfish ask toward another selfish ask:
> > Please, leave people which job is to take care about all of us to take
> > care about all of us. If you need a person to be a coordinator for
> > Wikimedia US, please, ask Sue or the Board to find another person for
> > that.
> >
> >
>
> Besides the fact that this is obviously within the job description of
> Sue to determine (this is one of the things that the community has no
> say in of course, and rightfully) I also want to state that it is
> weird that you apperently feel such a need for the US, but not for
> Japan, China, Africa or Russia, which, imho, have much larger cultural
> and legal differences with Europe then the US...
>
> BR, Lodewijk
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> foundation-l mailing list
> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/foundation-l
>



--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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> I humbly suggests Russians may have a different view of differences
> between Russia and Europe, specially when they are of Europe Russia,
> but besides this corner-picking, you make a good point.
>

>> Besides the fact that this is obviously within the job description of
>> Sue to determine (this is one of the things that the community has no
>> say in of course, and rightfully) I also want to state that it is
>> weird that you apperently feel such a need for the US, but not for
>> Japan, China, Africa or Russia, which, imho, have much larger cultural
>> and legal differences with Europe then the US...
>>
>> BR, Lodewijk
>>

Well, we do have a different view of the matter.


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On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 8:24 PM, Milos Rancic <millosh@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 12:55 AM, Thomas Dalton <thomas.dalton@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 2008/5/2 Pharos <pharosofalexandria@gmail.com>:
> >
> > > I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates
> > > Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the
> > > WMF.
> >
> > That's not a promotion, it's just more work!
>
> Hm. It may sound like a selfish ask toward another selfish ask:
> Please, leave people which job is to take care about all of us to take
> care about all of us. If you need a person to be a coordinator for
> Wikimedia US, please, ask Sue or the Board to find another person for
> that.

Cary Bass is effectively already serving in this capacity. When we
held "Wikipedia Takes Manhattan", I went to him for approval and
advice, because well, there is noone else in the WMF who has this job.

Being "Wikimedia US Affiliates Coordinator" would just formalize this
position, and this formalization should not require too much extra
energies to be expended in the near term, when the US Affiliates are
currently in an embryonic stage of development. In 1-2 years time, I
would fully expect the situation to be reassessed, and the position
possibly fall to another staff member or qualified volunteer who could
devote more time to it.

If Sue or the Board know of another person for this role, that would
be fine, but Cary would certainly seem the most obviously qualified
candidate.

Thanks,
Pharos

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On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 8:08 AM, effe iets anders
<effeietsanders@gmail.com> wrote:
> Besides the fact that this is obviously within the job description of
> Sue to determine (this is one of the things that the community has no
> say in of course, and rightfully) I also want to state that it is
> weird that you apperently feel such a need for the US, but not for
> Japan, China, Africa or Russia, which, imho, have much larger cultural
> and legal differences with Europe then the US...

The WMF is effectively legally managing the role of a "US chapter"
already, by administering all of the trademarks in this country, etc.

I believe it would be appropriate to them to manage a "virtual
chapter" also, under the person of a "Wikimedia US Affiliates
Coordinator", which would represent the various Wikimedians active
on-the-ground.

Possibly in the very long term "Wikimedia US" might be incorporated
separately, but it would seem like a great waste of energies to
establish a whole separate organization at this point.

Thanks,
Pharos

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2008/5/4, Pharos <pharosofalexandria@gmail.com>:
> On Sat, May 3, 2008 at 8:08 AM, effe iets anders
> <effeietsanders@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Besides the fact that this is obviously within the job description of
> > Sue to determine (this is one of the things that the community has no
> > say in of course, and rightfully) I also want to state that it is
> > weird that you apperently feel such a need for the US, but not for
> > Japan, China, Africa or Russia, which, imho, have much larger cultural
> > and legal differences with Europe then the US...
>
>
> The WMF is effectively legally managing the role of a "US chapter"
> already, by administering all of the trademarks in this country, etc.
>
> I believe it would be appropriate to them to manage a "virtual
> chapter" also, under the person of a "Wikimedia US Affiliates
> Coordinator", which would represent the various Wikimedians active
> on-the-ground.
>
> Possibly in the very long term "Wikimedia US" might be incorporated
> separately, but it would seem like a great waste of energies to
> establish a whole separate organization at this point.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pharos
>

As long as there is no board, nor membership structure etc, I have a
hard time seeing a group of volunteers as a chapter, even a virtual
one. Of course personally I would be supportive to create such
structures, but as they're not there yet, let's try to stick with the
common definitions :)

What you seem to mean to me, is a group of enthusiast volunteers who
want to do stuff. Yeah, the Volunteer Coordinator (Cary) might be a
good point of approach then. And maybe in some cases (conferences,
Wikipedia academies) the guy who is handling reachout (Frank). But the
same goes for enthusiast volunteers in southern Spain, Zambia, Nepal
or New Zealand. They would have to approach the same people for the
same things, and I still do not see why US volunteers should take a
different position on this. They are not more important, at most
higher in number (although that would have to proof itself first).

As soon as there are legal entities (or at least groups with
formalized structures) in the US, incorporated or not, I guess their
point of approach would be the chapters coordinator (Delphine) /
chapters committee . As long as you're not, I think that the regular
current structures should be sufficient (because you're no "affiliate"
anyways)..

BR, Lodewijk

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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

(O.O)

- --
Cary Bass
Volunteer Coordinator
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkgfORkACgkQyQg4JSymDYlNDQCfdQzBsLnISSV3XsQfZRkV2Ajr
yKkAoK3+A+IAu844lwN/+/hJUaJmH9Lq
=CMJx
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 12:43 PM, Cary Bass <cbass@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> (O.O)

I suggested to Pharos that you wouldn't mind the increase in job
responsibilities if it came with a comparable increase in salary :)

--Andrew Whitworth

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On Fri, May 2, 2008 at 6:20 PM, Pharos <pharosofalexandria@gmail.com> wrote:
> I propose that we promote Cary Bass to "Wikimedia US Affiliates
> Coordinator", as an adjunct position to "Volunteer Coordinator" of the
> WMF.

I'd like to table this specific idea for now. It was built on the
presumption that a "group exemption" would necessitate much closer
cooperation of US chapters with the WMF.

But it appears now that we can have easy non-profit status with a
508(c)(1)(b), as long as our budget is $5,000 or less. I don't see us
having a large budget for at least the first year or two, so this
should be OK, and maybe we can apply for a "group exemption" when we
are a more established organization.

There still may be a role for a "virtual chapter" to coordinate US
regional chapters, but perhaps nothing so directly top-down as this
proposal.

Thanks,
Pharos

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On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 7:33 PM, Pharos <pharosofalexandria@gmail.com> wrote:
> But it appears now that we can have easy non-profit status with a
> 508(c)(1)(b), as long as our budget is $5,000 or less.
>
To clarify a bit, you'd still have to qualify for exemption under
501(c)(3), just not required to get an advance determination letter.
You'd also be required to file a 990-N each year (don't worry though,
the IRS calls that an e-postcard and estimates that it takes 15
minutes to fill out). And you'd have to pass the public support test.
Private foundations are not eligible for this provision. Also, the
WMF might not approve any chapters which haven't received a
determination letter. Although, if this is the only sticking point
hopefully they'd at least be willing to pay for obtaining it. I can
talk to you privately with more information, I've probably already
said too much for a public mailing list. So let me add that
***Nothing in this email (or any of my previous ones) is intended or
written to be used, and it cannot be used, by any taxpayer for the
purpose of avoiding penalties that may be imposed on the taxpayer.***

> There still may be a role for a "virtual chapter" to coordinate US
> regional chapters, but perhaps nothing so directly top-down as this
> proposal.
>
If you want top-down, get me 10-15 people or more who will all agree
to work together under my direction, and I'll give you an incorporated
entity with bylaws and a 501(c)(3) determination letter. Getting the
Foundation to approve this entity as a chapter is then up to someone
else. Or, if you think having my name on it will jinx the whole
thing, name someone else the leader and let me use him/her as my
sockpuppet.

Alternatively, wait until Wikimedia Pennsylvania gets finished and
then follow their lead. I'm guessing that'll be relatively soon, but
maybe I'm wrong.

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On Mon, May 5, 2008 at 1:07 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm curious, and maybe this is the wrong thread, but can someone explain to
> me the difficulty in setting up a US organization that is essentially a
> Wikimedia membership chapter? I get the issues with trademark ownership
> (although it seems you could solve that with a license of some sort) and the
> issue of diverting donations, but what are the other impediments if any? I
> set up a non-profit corporation in high school, it didn't strike me as that
> difficult at the time.
>
> If this has been discussed at length, as I'm sure it has, on meta - could I
> get the link as well?
>
Two links which filled me in on a lot of the background for this thread are:

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_New_York_City/Chapters_Committee

http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_New_York_City/Letter_to_Chapters_Committee

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