Mailing List Archive

A Wikimania for everyone?
Every Wikimania bid has strengths and weaknesses. Once a bid is chosen,
the ritual of criticizing the selection by focusing on some weakness
seems to have become inevitable. I would be more impressed to reconsider
the jury's selection if somebody presented a serious evaluation that
reached a different result after weighing all the issues, instead of
harping on only the one most favorable to the argument.

Since that is not yet forthcoming, I'd like to refocus the discussion on
the concept of Wikimania in general, since it seems to produce so much
debate. As an idea, Wikimania is being pulled in too many directions,
and it cannot be all things to all people. Supposing we have a consensus
that in the most basic sense it's a good idea (do we have that?), what
can we make of this idea? What kind of event should it be? What values
do we prioritize - intimacy, mass appeal, accessibility, outreach,
infrastructure, culture? Others that I haven't listed? If we care about
diversity, what is that? When we consider costs, whose costs do we mean?
How do we balance the competing considerations?

Currently the conference is planned for roughly 400 people. So far I'm
not aware of any location having difficulty attracting attendees. The
argument for catering to the highest concentrations of contributors
would be more appealing if coupled with the idea that it makes sense to
accommodate more people. But expanding Wikimania would change other
dynamics of accessibility - the type of facility used, individual costs
and overall conference expenses, the character of the event. At least so
far, nobody has been presenting this as a vision for Wikimania's future.

Another consideration is that admission fees have consciously been kept
low. Otherwise Wikimania doesn't make Wikimedia contributors a priority
- at least, not the kind of contributors I gather everyone is referring
to here. For any location most people already face costs related to
attendance, it's simply impossible to physically bring Wikimania to
everyone. Realistically, for any one person, Wikimania may be close
enough for you to come at minimal cost once or twice in your lifetime.
Some people may have to use a broad interpretation of "minimal" for even
that.

Geographic proximity only goes so far in any case. Talking about Europe
and North America may sound as if that still leaves a vast range of
options. In the first place, this would be more persuasive if we saw a
larger number of cities bidding. When it's just one from each, the
chances of producing a bid superior to a highly-motivated team from,
say, South America are not exactly overwhelming. Furthermore, even if
this was the very highest consideration, it's not exactly neutral
between those. The varying population distributions and distances,
especially for North America, would have obvious logical consequences.
Basically, we should prefer any bid from the European core (defined by
London on the west, Rome on the south, Berlin or Rome on the east,
Berlin or Amsterdam on the north); the east coast of North America would
be a secondary option (maybe we could disqualify Europe every third
year); by comparison, the odds for the rest of North America would be
decidedly inferior (after ten or so years, we might make it to Chicago
or Los Angeles).

Wikimania could be bigger or smaller, reach the developing world or only
the already-developed, more expensive or less so, rotated widely or
narrowly. Leaving aside the security concerns specific to Alexandria,
the choice of options would have the following undesirable consequences,
depending on which course is taken:
*Complaints that the event is impersonal, lacks a sense of community, or
is merely a stage-managed public relations show
*After a cycle or two, it seems to be pretty much just the same group of
people getting together every few years
*Objections that the amount being spent is a poor use of foundation
funds (depending on how it works out, this would be about either the
size of the event or the travel costs incurred by the foundation itself,
making distance from San Francisco a factor)
*Inability to accommodate anyone beyond the local audience, thus being
hardly different from a random meetup and failing to reflect the diverse
character of Wikimedia participants
*Rumors and misperceptions of unfairness in timing of when registration
is opened or how tickets are allocated
*Outrage over high admission charges, resembling more closely a
"professional" conference

I would like to understand what vision people have for Wikimania, and
see how their vision would deal with all of these issues. So far I have
heard only complaints and rebuttals, nobody offering their own vision
(on this list, at least). I fear an end result of the fights over this
would be to either abandon the idea of Wikimania, or simply to hold it
in the Moscone Center every year like Macworld. Before we get there,
let's hear some better alternatives.

--Michael Snow


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Re: A Wikimania for everyone? [ In reply to ]
What if we had multiple events. For example;

Wikimania: The World Wikimedia Conference
Wikiconferences:The Chapter Convention

thoughts?



----- Original Message ----
From: Michael Snow <wikipedia@verizon.net>
To: Wikimedia Foundation Mailing List <foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2008 10:57:53 PM
Subject: [Foundation-l] A Wikimania for everyone?

Every Wikimania bid has strengths and weaknesses. Once a bid is chosen,
the ritual of criticizing the selection by focusing on some weakness
seems to have become inevitable. I would be more impressed to reconsider
the jury's selection if somebody presented a serious evaluation that
reached a different result after weighing all the issues, instead of
harping on only the one most favorable to the argument.

Since that is not yet forthcoming, I'd like to refocus the discussion on
the concept of Wikimania in general, since it seems to produce so much
debate. As an idea, Wikimania is being pulled in too many directions,
and it cannot be all things to all people. Supposing we have a consensus
that in the most basic sense it's a good idea (do we have that?), what
can we make of this idea? What kind of event should it be? What values
do we prioritize - intimacy, mass appeal, accessibility, outreach,
infrastructure, culture? Others that I haven't listed? If we care about
diversity, what is that? When we consider costs, whose costs do we mean?
How do we balance the competing considerations?

Currently the conference is planned for roughly 400 people. So far I'm
not aware of any location having difficulty attracting attendees. The
argument for catering to the highest concentrations of contributors
would be more appealing if coupled with the idea that it makes sense to
accommodate more people. But expanding Wikimania would change other
dynamics of accessibility - the type of facility used, individual costs
and overall conference expenses, the character of the event. At least so
far, nobody has been presenting this as a vision for Wikimania's future.

Another consideration is that admission fees have consciously been kept
low. Otherwise Wikimania doesn't make Wikimedia contributors a priority
- at least, not the kind of contributors I gather everyone is referring
to here. For any location most people already face costs related to
attendance, it's simply impossible to physically bring Wikimania to
everyone. Realistically, for any one person, Wikimania may be close
enough for you to come at minimal cost once or twice in your lifetime.
Some people may have to use a broad interpretation of "minimal" for even
that.

Geographic proximity only goes so far in any case. Talking about Europe
and North America may sound as if that still leaves a vast range of
options. In the first place, this would be more persuasive if we saw a
larger number of cities bidding. When it's just one from each, the
chances of producing a bid superior to a highly-motivated team from,
say, South America are not exactly overwhelming. Furthermore, even if
this was the very highest consideration, it's not exactly neutral
between those. The varying population distributions and distances,
especially for North America, would have obvious logical consequences.
Basically, we should prefer any bid from the European core (defined by
London on the west, Rome on the south, Berlin or Rome on the east,
Berlin or Amsterdam on the north); the east coast of North America would
be a secondary option (maybe we could disqualify Europe every third
year); by comparison, the odds for the rest of North America would be
decidedly inferior (after ten or so years, we might make it to Chicago
or Los Angeles).

Wikimania could be bigger or smaller, reach the developing world or only
the already-developed, more expensive or less so, rotated widely or
narrowly. Leaving aside the security concerns specific to Alexandria,
the choice of options would have the following undesirable consequences,
depending on which course is taken:
*Complaints that the event is impersonal, lacks a sense of community, or
is merely a stage-managed public relations show
*After a cycle or two, it seems to be pretty much just the same group of
people getting together every few years
*Objections that the amount being spent is a poor use of foundation
funds (depending on how it works out, this would be about either the
size of the event or the travel costs incurred by the foundation itself,
making distance from San Francisco a factor)
*Inability to accommodate anyone beyond the local audience, thus being
hardly different from a random meetup and failing to reflect the diverse
character of Wikimedia participants
*Rumors and misperceptions of unfairness in timing of when registration
is opened or how tickets are allocated
*Outrage over high admission charges, resembling more closely a
"professional" conference

I would like to understand what vision people have for Wikimania, and
see how their vision would deal with all of these issues. So far I have
heard only complaints and rebuttals, nobody offering their own vision
(on this list, at least). I fear an end result of the fights over this
would be to either abandon the idea of Wikimania, or simply to hold it
in the Moscone Center every year like Macworld. Before we get there,
let's hear some better alternatives.

--Michael Snow


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Re: A Wikimania for everyone? [ In reply to ]
Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
> What if we had multiple events. For example;
>
> Wikimania: The World Wikimedia Conference
> Wikiconferences:The Chapter Convention
>
> thoughts?
>
Well, the Wikimedia Foundation and the individual chapters have already
been doing Wikipedia Academy programs. (Maybe I should say the chapters
and the foundation, since the initiative really started with the
chapters.) That sounds like it's getting close to what you're describing.

--Michael Snow


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Re: A Wikimania for everyone? [ In reply to ]
Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
> What if we had multiple events. For example;
>
> Wikimania: The World Wikimedia Conference
> Wikiconferences:The Chapter Convention
>
> thoughts?
This is already happening in some countries, but it really depends on
people on site to get things organized. Granted it's easier for a small
countries like Serbia or the Netherlands where no-one really has to
travel very far.

For now there is an understanding that Wikimania takes place in July or
August, so that leaves plenty of calender for everyone else. It's
conceivable that Wikimania could take place at another time of year to
take advantage of lower off-peak travel costs, but others might find
this an impossible time of year for distant travel. Regional or local
conferences don't require long travel time, and can easily be run on a
long weekend.

Ec

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Re: A Wikimania for everyone? [ In reply to ]
Yes, especially in Europe there are many initiatives like this. I
recall Germany, Switzerland, Netherlands, France, Italy, Poland
(Sweden?, Russia?), Israel and Serbia, but also in Atlanta there was
an initiative (not sure of the status).

It all depends on how enthousiastic people are, and how much time they
are willing to invest. And it will most likely not be similar to
Wikimania, but if you include "outsiders" it is very well possible to
target up to 150, 200 even in the Netherlands. Generally these
conferences are one or two days, but I heard about events (in Poland
for example) of three days too.

Mvg, Lodewijk

2008/3/31, Ray Saintonge <saintonge@telus.net>:
> Geoffrey Plourde wrote:
> > What if we had multiple events. For example;
> >
> > Wikimania: The World Wikimedia Conference
> > Wikiconferences:The Chapter Convention
> >
> > thoughts?
>
> This is already happening in some countries, but it really depends on
> people on site to get things organized. Granted it's easier for a small
> countries like Serbia or the Netherlands where no-one really has to
> travel very far.
>
> For now there is an understanding that Wikimania takes place in July or
> August, so that leaves plenty of calender for everyone else. It's
> conceivable that Wikimania could take place at another time of year to
> take advantage of lower off-peak travel costs, but others might find
> this an impossible time of year for distant travel. Regional or local
> conferences don't require long travel time, and can easily be run on a
> long weekend.
>
> Ec
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> foundation-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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>

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Re: A Wikimania for everyone? [ In reply to ]
Practically everything related to Wikimedia produces a lot of debate. Even
the composition of the jury has been challenged - though no one has
objected to Buenos Aires directly (although one writer mentioned that it is
equivalently far away as Antarctica for him). I think we should thank the
jury for the work they do and refrain from challenging the decisions using
arguments that do not include a critical analysis of the bids and process.
The question of jury "accountability" seems like a non-starter - if they were
selected by Cary or the Board -- well, that is their job, lets let them do it.

The limit on Wikimanias is financial and logistical - as (and if) the
Foundation earns more funds it will become feasible to hold more Wikimania
events - although at that point we need to have a discussion about the
utility of these events in relation to the goals of the Foundation. All
other efforts being funded sufficiently I think it would be great to have
frequent Wikimanias all around the world - in a perfect world, one
on each inhabited continent each year.

Clearly the English Wikipedia is the largest project, and it draws its
editors and readers primarily (but by no means exclusively) from
the English speaking world. Still - en.wiki is obviously not the limit of
the Foundation's efforts, and it is the least in need of an event like
Wikimania to support it. Given that... It makes sense to entertain bids
from around the world without undue regard for locations in Europe
or North America. To those who object that using Wikimania to promote
Wikimedia projects and efforts is a misuse of the event... I can't disagree
more. If the Foundation is going to allocate funds to Wikimania as a major
annual expenditure, then those funds should be in support of the mission
of the Wikimedia Foundation - and not venues for "celebration" by the
current contributors of two continents.

That leads into the idea of Wikimania as a "user event." I can see how
it would have developed that way - many online communities have community
oriented meetups that have very little to do with the outside public and are
located conveniently to community members or event organizers.
Of course Wikimedia is much more than an online community, and the friendly
community-oriented aspects of a Wikimania event should be secondary to
its efforts towards collaboration, education and public relations.

Nathan

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Re: A Wikimania for everyone? [ In reply to ]
On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 3:39 PM, Nathan <nawrich@gmail.com> wrote:

> Practically everything related to Wikimedia produces a lot of debate.


True; and debate can be productive. We should harness that interest and
energy into constructive work to lay the groundwork for joyful events, and
discussion about what makes a successful gathering.


> Even the composition of the jury has been challenged - though no one has
> objected to Buenos Aires directly (although one writer mentioned that it
> is
> equivalently far away as Antarctica for him). I think we should thank the
> jury for the work they do and refrain from challenging the decisions using
> arguments that do not include a critical analysis of the bids and process.


Suggesting that the process rely more on questions, assessments, and
discussion from the community at large is certainly relevant. There were
not many discussions about criteria or questions from the wider community
during the bid process; and many more voices tend to speak up after each
Wikimania and after a selection. The basic interest in improving the
process is there, but it isn't being realized; if people who care about a
topic don't use the right forum to discuss it, the discussion space is not
truly open. (Perhaps publicity or presentation could be better targeted so
that the community feels the shared ownership of review and selection.)


The limit on Wikimanias is financial and logistical - as (and if) the
> Foundation earns more funds it will become feasible to hold more Wikimania
> events - although at that point we need to have a discussion about the
> utility of these events in relation to the goals of the Foundation. All
> other efforts being funded sufficiently I think it would be great to have
> frequent Wikimanias all around the world - in a perfect world, one
> on each inhabited continent each year.
>

Logistical, perhaps -- though if more people take up the meme of throwing
regional events, and come to see that as an exciting and viable project,
more of the talented local organizers may choose to do it. But financial?
If there are 10,000 people who would like to attend some similar gathering
each year, and only 10-15% of them currently do, there is an ample pool of
talent, resources, and attendee-driven funding to organize a number of
events. (One might just as well suggest that BarCamps are limited by
O'Reilly's financial resources...)


If the Foundation is going to allocate funds to Wikimania as a major
> annual expenditure, then those funds should be in support of the mission
> of the Wikimedia Foundation - and not venues for "celebration" by the
> current contributors of two continents.
>

Does the Foundation plan on allocating Wikimania funds as a major annual
expenditure? My understanding is that past Wikimanias have been basically
self-supporting, with the Foundation acting as a conduit for some related
sponsorships (which certainly incurs overhead costs) and supporting travel
for staff and board members.

As a frequently-cited point of comparison, consider the World Science
Fiction Society's WorldCons -- each large event has a bid team that is
chosen two years out, and every team is its own independent organization
that exists to put on a major gathering, organize its own logistics and
finances, and wind down.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldcon

SJ
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Re: A Wikimania for everyone? [ In reply to ]
(I've had this draft for months in my box, posting it now that we're
trying to evaluate Wikimania, past and future- Michael's post is old,
but I found it and still find it very much spot on)

First, thank you Michael for this post, I believe it captures the
essence of the issues surrounding Wikimania and the yearly bid.
I will try and comment on a few points, based on my past Wikimania
experience, both as an organizer (volunteer and professional) and an
attendee (normal and staff of the Wikimedia Foundation). This is not
an official email, it tries and summarizes my personal thoughts on
what Wikimania is and where it might go, in order to trigger more
discussion.

On Mon, Mar 31, 2008 at 7:57 AM, Michael Snow <wikipedia@verizon.net> wrote:
[snip]

> Since that is not yet forthcoming, I'd like to refocus the discussion on
> the concept of Wikimania in general, since it seems to produce so much
> debate. As an idea, Wikimania is being pulled in too many directions,
> and it cannot be all things to all people. Supposing we have a consensus
> that in the most basic sense it's a good idea (do we have that?), what
> can we make of this idea? What kind of event should it be? What values
> do we prioritize - intimacy, mass appeal, accessibility, outreach,
> infrastructure, culture? Others that I haven't listed? If we care about
> diversity, what is that? When we consider costs, whose costs do we mean?
> How do we balance the competing considerations?

I think Wikimania is a good idea, yes. Nothing in the Wikimania
threads, old or new, even in the most "flamewar" or "trolllike" ones
has suggested that there isn't a consensus about the fact that it is a
good idea, at least not to me.

The values of Wikimania, as I saw them develop over the last four
years, have a definite touch of intimacy, no matter how much press and
good word to the outside come out of it. It's first and foremost a
place and time for people working on the Wikimedia projects to work
together face to face. Then it is a place and time where those same
people can invite and work with like minded people to share and engage
in that wiki-driven life, with the hope that these people will help
achieve Wikimedia's goals, but also serve as advocates of our cause in
the "outside world".
>
> Currently the conference is planned for roughly 400 people. So far I'm
> not aware of any location having difficulty attracting attendees. The
> argument for catering to the highest concentrations of contributors
> would be more appealing if coupled with the idea that it makes sense to
> accommodate more people. But expanding Wikimania would change other
> dynamics of accessibility - the type of facility used, individual costs
> and overall conference expenses, the character of the event. At least so
> far, nobody has been presenting this as a vision for Wikimania's future.

I have been, over the past 4 years, one of the strongest advocates of
keeping Wikimania small. As the community of active contributors
(whether on the wikis or on the outside) grows, of course, we should
keep the growth relative. But I have never been sure, and still am not
sure, that Wikimania is a broad reaching event to bring onboard many
many new contributors. I see it more as a place where people who are
in the projects or gravitate around them can work together to set up
strategies to get more people and the right people involved. Trying
too broad a participation would, in my view, dilute the purpose of
Wikimania.

> Another consideration is that admission fees have consciously been kept
> low. Otherwise Wikimania doesn't make Wikimedia contributors a priority
> - at least, not the kind of contributors I gather everyone is referring
> to here. For any location most people already face costs related to
> attendance, it's simply impossible to physically bring Wikimania to
> everyone. Realistically, for any one person, Wikimania may be close
> enough for you to come at minimal cost once or twice in your lifetime.
> Some people may have to use a broad interpretation of "minimal" for even
> that.

I cannot stress enough how true this is. While I am sympathetic to the
people who have been, 4 years in a row, "far away from Wikimania", I
don't think Wikimania's location will ever gather everyone's support.
One year it's gonna be too far, the second it's gonna be too politic,
the third it's gonna be too cold, the fourth it's gonna be too...
And frankly, I believe it is good so. If Wikimania managed to gather
everyone's approval, I think that it would be boring ;-).


> Geographic proximity only goes so far in any case. Talking about Europe
> and North America may sound as if that still leaves a vast range of
> options. In the first place, this would be more persuasive if we saw a
> larger number of cities bidding. When it's just one from each, the
> chances of producing a bid superior to a highly-motivated team from,
> say, South America are not exactly overwhelming. Furthermore, even if
> this was the very highest consideration, it's not exactly neutral
> between those. The varying population distributions and distances,
> especially for North America, would have obvious logical consequences.
> Basically, we should prefer any bid from the European core (defined by
> London on the west, Rome on the south, Berlin or Rome on the east,
> Berlin or Amsterdam on the north); the east coast of North America would
> be a secondary option (maybe we could disqualify Europe every third
> year); by comparison, the odds for the rest of North America would be
> decidedly inferior (after ten or so years, we might make it to Chicago
> or Los Angeles).
>
> Wikimania could be bigger or smaller, reach the developing world or only
> the already-developed, more expensive or less so, rotated widely or
> narrowly. Leaving aside the security concerns specific to Alexandria,
> the choice of options would have the following undesirable consequences,
> depending on which course is taken:
> *Complaints that the event is impersonal, lacks a sense of community, or
> is merely a stage-managed public relations show
> *After a cycle or two, it seems to be pretty much just the same group of
> people getting together every few years
> *Objections that the amount being spent is a poor use of foundation
> funds (depending on how it works out, this would be about either the
> size of the event or the travel costs incurred by the foundation itself,
> making distance from San Francisco a factor)
> *Inability to accommodate anyone beyond the local audience, thus being
> hardly different from a random meetup and failing to reflect the diverse
> character of Wikimedia participants
> *Rumors and misperceptions of unfairness in timing of when registration
> is opened or how tickets are allocated
> *Outrage over high admission charges, resembling more closely a
> "professional" conference
>
> I would like to understand what vision people have for Wikimania, and
> see how their vision would deal with all of these issues. So far I have
> heard only complaints and rebuttals, nobody offering their own vision
> (on this list, at least). I fear an end result of the fights over this
> would be to either abandon the idea of Wikimania, or simply to hold it
> in the Moscone Center every year like Macworld. Before we get there,
> let's hear some better alternatives.

So...Michael, I left all your post for others to comment. But as I
wrote elsewhere, and on a personal note, I'll write in another thread
the Wikimania of my dreams.

Delphine

--
~notafish
http://blog.notanendive.org

NB. This gmail address is used for mailing lists. Personal emails sent
to this address will probably get lost.

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