Mailing List Archive

On Sun, Mar 23, 2008 at 12:54 AM, Gerard Meijssen
<gerard.meijssen@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi,
> I would not rule out advertisements anywhere. We are discussing the use of
> advertisements and the notion of where is not the notion of why. I am
> interested in more funding for the WMF so that we can fund more activities
> that help us accomplish our mission. All notions about where adverts are to
> be had need only be considered when we know that we are going to use the
> instrument of advertising to increase our funding.
>
> I have been watching TV for a few days, I am at my mothers for Easter, and I
> do not like advertisements at all. It is so bad that my mother will not
> watch most of the commercial TV channels. I do not like advertisements at
> all but when they help us accomplish things...
>
> We could do for instance ads in our stable versions ..
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 9:47 PM, Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia.com> wrote:
>
> > I don't know of anyone, even among those advocating for advertisements,
> > who advocates putting them in article space.
> >
> > White Cat wrote:
> > > Well. "United States Holocaust Memorial Museum" doesn't strike as a
> > problem
> > > unless you are on the perspective that denies the holocaust. We
> > disregard
> > > such minority opinions for the most part, which is fine. But wait till
> > you
> > > get to topics like Palestine and Israel...
> > >
> > > Let's assume advertisements are assigned to articles randomly and not in
> > an
> > > Adsense manner... Adsense would be more problematic on occasions
> > > particularly on controversial topics.
> > >
> > > - An Israeli tourism advertisement on an article about Palestinian
> > may
> > > be problematic.
> > > - An Israeli tourism advertisement on an article about Iran may be
> > > problematic.
> > > - An Israeli tourism advertisement on an article about cheese may not
> > > be problematic.
> > > - An Israeli tourism advertisement on an article about Toyota may not
> > > be problematic.
> > >
> > > Likewise
> > >
> > > - A Ford advertisement on an article about Palestinian may not be
> > > problematic.
> > > - A Ford advertisement on an article about Iran may be problematic.
> > > - A Ford advertisement on an article about cheese may not be
> > > problematic.
> > > - A Ford advertisement on an article about Toyota may be problematic.
> > >
> > >
> > > What I am trying to say is how do we know with 100% certainty we are
> > with a
> > > situation where an advertisement shows up at a problematic article? An
> > > advertisement that is not problematic on one article may be problematic
> > > elsewhere.
> > >
> > > - White Cat
> > >
> > > On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 4:52 PM, Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >> White Cat wrote:
> > >>> Joke aside, what kind of an advertisement
> > >>> would we put on an article on the second world war or a pharaoh from
> > >> ancient
> > >>> Egypt.
> > >> Just for discussion purposes, the two ads I see on google right now for
> > >> "World War II" are for the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, and
> > >> for World War II History magazine.
> > >>
> > >> The Museum advertisement leads to a special section of their website
> > >> focussing on D-Day. From my cursory reading of it as a non-specialist,
> > >> it does not appear to be POV pushing. It is an educational site about
> > >> the war.
> > >>
> > >> At Britannica,
> > >> http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9110199/World-War-II
> > >>
> > >> I see a banner at the top, apparently unrelated to the content (for
> > >> Advair, an asthma medication). Further down, I see an advertisement
> > for
> > >> the Lincoln Navigator, a giant SUV car thing. And I see an
> > >> advertisement for the University of Phoenix. And another ad for the
> > >> University of Phoenix. And the google ads. (I am not even counting
> > >> their ads for their own products.)
> > >>
> > >> Interestingly enough, at Ask.com, I see no advertisements for "World
> > War
> > >> II".
> > >>
> > >> At Yahoo, I see a series of text ads similar to google's (though, more
> > >> of them).
> > >>
> > >> A search for "Tutankhamun" at Google (the most popular pharoah I
> > >> suppose), shows 3 advertisements for tickets to the Tutankhamun
> > exhibit,
> > >> which is currently in London.
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________
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> > >>
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> >
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No, Foundation is not talking about ads... but the elites closely
related to the foundation are
Of course, it's going to be discussed since there's no money enough to
secure the site operations AND save the world

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Jimmy Wales wrote:
> Pedro Sanchez wrote:
>> If Foundation would drop the world saviour attitude, drop wikimania
>> which accounts a large part of the budget and first securing budget
>> for running the site for a few years, then this nonsense advertising
>> talk would not need to happen.
>
> Notice that the Foundation is not proposing advertising at all.
>
> --Jimbo

Correct. The advertisement discussion has been going on, every now and
then since the creation of the Wikipedia. Nothing new.

For the fun, some old historical discussion:
http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Advertising_on_Wikipedia

Also, I must point out that Wikimania, though it naturally appears in
the budget, is roughly a self sustainable projects. We get sponsors to
pay for it, and if we had no Wikimania, we would not get these sponsors
money. So, it is a zero sum event.

Ant


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On Sat, Mar 22, 2008 at 10:47 PM, Jimmy Wales <jwales@wikia.com> wrote:

> I don't know of anyone, even among those advocating for advertisements,
> who advocates putting them in article space.
>
>

Right. What I am saying is this is a potential hazard of advertisements.
Even if they are randomly assigned to articles non-problematic adds may be a
problem based on topic

- White Cat.
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On Fri, Mar 21, 2008 at 4:18 AM, Brion Vibber <brion@wikimedia.org> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
>
> Florence Devouard wrote:
> > Would it make a difference...
> >
> > if an advertisement is only there to reach out to the attention of the
> > reader, and is only beneficial to the one paying for the advertisement
> > (eg, a Ford ad on a Toyota article)
> >
> > or if the advertisement also was a bringing a benefit to the reader ?
> >
> > I ask the question because my husband opinion is very clear on the
> > matter. When he reads an article about a BOOK, he would like that we
> > provide as a service, a link to a website where he can directly buy the
> > book. Typically, an Amazon link. It would be an advertisement of course,
> > but it would bring a service to the reader. It would not be a
> > GoogleAds.
>
> Advertising brokers such as Google already attempt to make ad selection
> based on contextual information as relevant to the reader as possible --
> there is a direct commercial advantage for them to provide ads that
> readers will want to click on.

True but It is an attempt which is not assured to success. For English
or other languages it would work. But it doesn't work for other
languages with over 100M population like Japanese. We know Wikia using
Google AdSense and their Japanese wikis got user complaints against
"inappropriate ads". On Gmail, there is also ads and most of ads
accompanied to Japanese mails seems to me irrelevant and not
intellectual. Like a wiki related mail + "you can earn 510K JPY a
month" or "you can get your Ph.D. (sort of diploma mills).
Introduction of advertisement in a semantic approach may be disastrous
if the system implemented doesn't work well in its target language.


--
KIZU Naoko
http://d.hatena.ne.jp/Britty (in Japanese)
Quote of the Day (English): http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/WQ:QOTD

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White Cat wrote:
> Jimmy Wales wrote:
>
>> I don't know of anyone, even among those advocating for advertisements,
>> who advocates putting them in article space.
>>
> Right. What I am saying is this is a potential hazard of advertisements.
> Even if they are randomly assigned to articles non-problematic adds may be a
> problem based on topic
Advertising is rooted in an underlying consumerist philosophy.
Consumerism in turn needs mass production to be successful.

In a truly collaborationist model we all start as equals; there is no
presumption that a body of knowledge cannot contain certain ideas on the
grounds of triviality; there is no presumption that a templated
technological solution will bring needed order to the universe; there is
no presumption that a style guide represents the unique allowable form
of expression. All of these uniforming techniques are the bread and
butter of consumerism.

Ec

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