Hi All,
I'm answering this on the old Zebra mailing list also even though I'm
sure that by now, everyone who has checked in has also subscribed to the new
Quagga mailing list per Paul's announcement. But in case you haven't,
the points that Peter is raising are important enough to address on
both forums. Response is inline.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zebra@zebra.org [mailto:owner-zebra@zebra.org]On Behalf Of
>Puntenney, Peter S
>Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 3:25 PM
>To: zebra@zebra.org
>Subject: [zebra 20165] Call for task items
>
>
>On Aug/31, Greg Troxel wrote:
>
>> Please keep in mind how a name will fly in the corporate world.
>
>(I truly hate to toss a bit of cold water; the name game truly is fun.)
>I not only agree with Greg's point but feel I should interject a few
>"ugly" reality-check points.
>
>The Zebra software as it stands to date is a well known instantiation of
>the culmination of OSPF, RIP, BGP and other routing research,
>development and contribution work of 1000's (if not 10's of 1000's) of
>individuals over the past 15-years. (Far be it the work of a single
>individual, no matter how much personal effort expended).
>
>Just do a search on Zebra and you will find links across the IETF,
>RFC's, GNU software links, Linux and BSD distributions, and corporate
>America both large and small. There are many individuals and companies
>who rely heavily on Zebra for their livelihood. In short Zebra has a
>substantial presence and has become the primary routing software base
>for open source software around the world.
>
>The widespread Zebra presence was established through the power of the
>open source community network over a 5-year period. Zebra was launched
>when routing software interest and resources were at a peak. To launch
>a project today is a much more daunting task.
>
This is all correct but gated had equally widespread usage. In fact there
are STILL sites using the public gated code, who haven't even made the
transition to Zebra yet.
Nothing about this fork is going to be easy. If you recall the userbase
wasn't really for it and to be honest we were driven to it by Kunihiro.
But, I think that most people will be AMAZED at how quickly people drop
Zebra and switch over to Quagga, because the fundamental thing - lack
of support - is still missing with the regular Zebra.org CVS code,
because Kunihiro isn't allowing anyone else but him into the CVS
for update access.
I don't mean just mailing list support. I mean the entering of required and
necessary patches into the CVS AS WELL AS mailing list support.
>By not retaining the zebra name zebra-pj is creating a new project which
>has no presence in the open-source community. Simply forking a branch
>and providing a maintenance role is ominous enough when retaining the
>zebra name. Forking with a new name requires gaining the support of the
>open source community, companies and corporations, the IETF, and routing
>software and hardware developers and vendors. It will take many years to
>displace the zebra name, even if zebra dies (just follow the 8-year old
>Merit-Group contribution links, they eventually lead to www.gated.org
>which leads to www.nexthop.com).
>
Correct, and that is an advantage that nexthop is going to have for
the forseeable future over IP Infusion.
If I was working for IP Infusion Sales Department I would have a
regular program of gated references on the web, and when I found
a reference that was obviously referring to the now-defunct gated
public code, I would be e-mailing the webpage webmaster and asking
him to update his links to point to zebra.org
But that is IP Infusion's problem, frankly. It isn't ours because
the people looking for freeware BGP routing code, once they get to
NextHop and find they have to pay for things, they are going to get
right back on the web and keep looking.
>Now, zebra-pj has taken the very first steps to undertake the burden and
>responsibility as the global caretakers of open source routing under a
>new project. There are many tasks that were performed when the zebra
>project was started which likewise must be preformed for its new name
>sake.
>
This is great, but frankly, the proper place for this post is
on the Quagga mailing list. Please refrain from posting followups
to this topic to the zebra.org mailing list.
Ted
>(Please excuse my forwardness) I feel it wise at this point to issue a
>call for task items. Choosing a name is just one of many tasks
>necessary to launch the new project. (yes, I too agree the "name" is an
>important first item of business).
>
>Besides the basic logistics already underway, domain-name, CVS,
>patch-list, etc, there are additional items the community can add in
>constructing a task list. (More soapbox). Your project lives by your
>contributions and actions and in an open source community your input is
>always accepted (was going to say welcome but that can't always be true,
>eh?).
>
>===========================================
><new_name_here> Project task list:
>===========================================
>
> -- Project name.
> -- Project domain name.
>
> -- < PLACE CURRENT TASK ITEMS HERE>
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> -- Transfer of GNU status from zebra project.
> -- Construct a project charter
> -- Contact IETF
> -- Contact OSPF RFC contributors
> -- Solicit corporate support (I'll do what I can in my backyard).
>
> -- < PLACE RECOMMENDATIONS HERE >
>
>
>===========================================
>Just trying to be helpful...
> Peter
>
>
I'm answering this on the old Zebra mailing list also even though I'm
sure that by now, everyone who has checked in has also subscribed to the new
Quagga mailing list per Paul's announcement. But in case you haven't,
the points that Peter is raising are important enough to address on
both forums. Response is inline.
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-zebra@zebra.org [mailto:owner-zebra@zebra.org]On Behalf Of
>Puntenney, Peter S
>Sent: Friday, August 01, 2003 3:25 PM
>To: zebra@zebra.org
>Subject: [zebra 20165] Call for task items
>
>
>On Aug/31, Greg Troxel wrote:
>
>> Please keep in mind how a name will fly in the corporate world.
>
>(I truly hate to toss a bit of cold water; the name game truly is fun.)
>I not only agree with Greg's point but feel I should interject a few
>"ugly" reality-check points.
>
>The Zebra software as it stands to date is a well known instantiation of
>the culmination of OSPF, RIP, BGP and other routing research,
>development and contribution work of 1000's (if not 10's of 1000's) of
>individuals over the past 15-years. (Far be it the work of a single
>individual, no matter how much personal effort expended).
>
>Just do a search on Zebra and you will find links across the IETF,
>RFC's, GNU software links, Linux and BSD distributions, and corporate
>America both large and small. There are many individuals and companies
>who rely heavily on Zebra for their livelihood. In short Zebra has a
>substantial presence and has become the primary routing software base
>for open source software around the world.
>
>The widespread Zebra presence was established through the power of the
>open source community network over a 5-year period. Zebra was launched
>when routing software interest and resources were at a peak. To launch
>a project today is a much more daunting task.
>
This is all correct but gated had equally widespread usage. In fact there
are STILL sites using the public gated code, who haven't even made the
transition to Zebra yet.
Nothing about this fork is going to be easy. If you recall the userbase
wasn't really for it and to be honest we were driven to it by Kunihiro.
But, I think that most people will be AMAZED at how quickly people drop
Zebra and switch over to Quagga, because the fundamental thing - lack
of support - is still missing with the regular Zebra.org CVS code,
because Kunihiro isn't allowing anyone else but him into the CVS
for update access.
I don't mean just mailing list support. I mean the entering of required and
necessary patches into the CVS AS WELL AS mailing list support.
>By not retaining the zebra name zebra-pj is creating a new project which
>has no presence in the open-source community. Simply forking a branch
>and providing a maintenance role is ominous enough when retaining the
>zebra name. Forking with a new name requires gaining the support of the
>open source community, companies and corporations, the IETF, and routing
>software and hardware developers and vendors. It will take many years to
>displace the zebra name, even if zebra dies (just follow the 8-year old
>Merit-Group contribution links, they eventually lead to www.gated.org
>which leads to www.nexthop.com).
>
Correct, and that is an advantage that nexthop is going to have for
the forseeable future over IP Infusion.
If I was working for IP Infusion Sales Department I would have a
regular program of gated references on the web, and when I found
a reference that was obviously referring to the now-defunct gated
public code, I would be e-mailing the webpage webmaster and asking
him to update his links to point to zebra.org
But that is IP Infusion's problem, frankly. It isn't ours because
the people looking for freeware BGP routing code, once they get to
NextHop and find they have to pay for things, they are going to get
right back on the web and keep looking.
>Now, zebra-pj has taken the very first steps to undertake the burden and
>responsibility as the global caretakers of open source routing under a
>new project. There are many tasks that were performed when the zebra
>project was started which likewise must be preformed for its new name
>sake.
>
This is great, but frankly, the proper place for this post is
on the Quagga mailing list. Please refrain from posting followups
to this topic to the zebra.org mailing list.
Ted
>(Please excuse my forwardness) I feel it wise at this point to issue a
>call for task items. Choosing a name is just one of many tasks
>necessary to launch the new project. (yes, I too agree the "name" is an
>important first item of business).
>
>Besides the basic logistics already underway, domain-name, CVS,
>patch-list, etc, there are additional items the community can add in
>constructing a task list. (More soapbox). Your project lives by your
>contributions and actions and in an open source community your input is
>always accepted (was going to say welcome but that can't always be true,
>eh?).
>
>===========================================
><new_name_here> Project task list:
>===========================================
>
> -- Project name.
> -- Project domain name.
>
> -- < PLACE CURRENT TASK ITEMS HERE>
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> -- Transfer of GNU status from zebra project.
> -- Construct a project charter
> -- Contact IETF
> -- Contact OSPF RFC contributors
> -- Solicit corporate support (I'll do what I can in my backyard).
>
> -- < PLACE RECOMMENDATIONS HERE >
>
>
>===========================================
>Just trying to be helpful...
> Peter
>
>