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I believe that the name "Wheel" was a reference to "reinventing the
wheel". But I cannot find a quote to support this claim. I think the
general sentiment was that it was the second attempt by the Python
community to come up with a packaging format (first being Egg), and so
they were reinventing the wheel, in a way.

I cannot speak to the other question though: I don't know. This is
however also a common practice on Linux, where Python is often
installed in order to enable system tools, which, in turn, don't need
a Python package manager to function. Not sure why this would be the
case in MS Windows.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2024 at 4:51?PM Johanne Fairchild via Python-list
<python-list@python.org> wrote:
>
> Why is a whl-package called a ``wheel''? Is it just a pronunciation for
> the extension WHL or is it really a name?
>
> Also, it seems that when I install Python on Windows, it doesn't come
> with pip ready to run. I had to say
>
> python -m ensurepip
>
> and then I saw that a pip on a whl-package was installed. Why doesn't
> the official distribution make pip ready to run by default? Thank you!
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ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:

> Johanne Fairchild <jfairchild@tudado.org> wrote or quoted:
>>Why is a whl-package called a ``wheel''? Is it just a pronunciation for
>>the extension WHL or is it really a name?
>
> PyPi in its initial state was named "cheese shop", as the famous
> part in the show "Monty Python Cheese Shop". Because initially it
> only hosted links to the packages, so it was empty like that shop.
> And within a cheese shop what do you store? Wheels of cheese.

Lol! Loved it. (Thanks very much.)

>>Also, it seems that when I install Python on Windows, it doesn't come
>>with pip ready to run. I had to say
>
> Some Python distributions do not come with pip pre-installed
> because they have their own package management systems.

But this was a Windows install. I don't think Windows has its own
package management for Python packages. I'd be totally surprised.
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On 2024-03-21 11:36, Johanne Fairchild via Python-list wrote:
> Why is a whl-package called a ``wheel''? Is it just a pronunciation for
> the extension WHL or is it really a name?
>
> Also, it seems that when I install Python on Windows, it doesn't come
> with pip ready to run. I had to say
>
> python -m ensurepip
>
> and then I saw that a pip on a whl-package was installed. Why doesn't
> the official distribution make pip ready to run by default? Thank you!

When I install Python on Windows, I always get pip by default, although
it might not be on the system search path.

As it's recommended to use the Python Launcher py on Windows, I use that
instead:

py -m pip install something

because it gives better support if you have multiple versions of Python
installed.
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On 2024-03-21, MRAB via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:

> As it's recommended to use the Python Launcher py on Windows, I use
> that instead:
>
> py -m pip install something
>
> because it gives better support if you have multiple versions of
> Python installed.

I adopted that practice years ago on Linux as well after wasting what
seemed like most of a day trying to figure out problems which turned
out to be caused by the fact that "pip" and "python" invoked different
versions of Python.
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On 3/21/2024 4:19 PM, Grant Edwards via Python-list wrote:
> On 2024-03-21, MRAB via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:
>
>> As it's recommended to use the Python Launcher py on Windows, I use
>> that instead:
>>
>> py -m pip install something
>>
>> because it gives better support if you have multiple versions of
>> Python installed.
>
> I adopted that practice years ago on Linux as well after wasting what
> seemed like most of a day trying to figure out problems which turned
> out to be caused by the fact that "pip" and "python" invoked different
> versions of Python.

Although you still need to be aware that there might be a different
Python installation between e.g. "python3 -m pip" and "python3.11 -m
pip", etc. depending on what's been installed.

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Am Do., 21.März.2024 um 18:58:26 schrieb Johanne Fairchild via Python-list:
> ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) writes:
>
>> Johanne Fairchild <jfairchild@tudado.org> wrote or quoted:
>>> Why is a whl-package called a ``wheel''? Is it just a pronunciation for
>>> the extension WHL or is it really a name?
>>
>> PyPi in its initial state was named "cheese shop", as the famous
>> part in the show "Monty Python Cheese Shop". Because initially it
>> only hosted links to the packages, so it was empty like that shop.
>> And within a cheese shop what do you store? Wheels of cheese.
>
> Lol! Loved it. (Thanks very much.)
>
>>> Also, it seems that when I install Python on Windows, it doesn't come
>>> with pip ready to run. I had to say
>>
>> Some Python distributions do not come with pip pre-installed
>> because they have their own package management systems.
>
> But this was a Windows install. I don't think Windows has its own
> package management for Python packages. I'd be totally surprised.

The python packages found at https://www.python.org/downloads/ come with
pip and pip installed out of the box.

But there are others like active python having other packet managers
they do not install pip out of the box. Refer to their instructions how
to install packages.
--
Thomas

?

> On 22 Mar 2024, at 15:25, Gilmeh Serda via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:
>
>> Many if not most Linux distributions do not include pip by default.
>
> Really? It came with Manjaro.

Debian and Ubuntu require you to install pip as a separate package.
Also puts venv in its own package.

Fedora leaves all the batteries intact and rhel I assume.

Barry





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On 3/22/24 11:45, Barry via Python-list wrote:
> ?
>
>> On 22 Mar 2024, at 15:25, Gilmeh Serda via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Many if not most Linux distributions do not include pip by default.
>>
>> Really? It came with Manjaro.
>
> Debian and Ubuntu require you to install pip as a separate package.
> Also puts venv in its own package.
>
> Fedora leaves all the batteries intact and rhel I assume.

pip is still a separate package in the .rpm world. which makes sense on
a couple of levels:

* pip releases on its own cycle, you wouldn't want to have to *force* a
new release of python + python-libs + python-devel + maybe others, if
you happened want to rev pip forward independently.

* in a distro-packaged world, that's the primary place you get your
Python packages from, and pip isn't seen as being as necessary, and
potentially even as destructive. How many times have you seen an article
that suggests you "sudo pip install randompackage"? Many distro setups
now disallow installing like that. If you know what you're doing, and
particularly if you're happy to control a specific environment by
setting up a virtualenv, then fine, you'll still have access to
everything you need.

anyway, I seem to recall the original message (which I've since deleted)
was asking about Windows anyway. There it's quite unusual to end up
without pip, but not so unusual to end up without the *command* named
pip - search path things, and all that. Usually if you "py -m pip
--version" you'll see it's actually installed, just not accessible using
the current search path.



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> On 22 Mar 2024, at 20:28, Mats Wichmann via Python-list <python-list@python.org> wrote:
>
> pip is still a separate package in the .rpm world. which makes sense on a couple of levels:

Yes it’s a separate package, but it’s always installed. At least on Fedora.
I agree it makes sense to package it separately, which is inline with Fedora’s
policy of not vendoring code into a package.

Barry


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