Mailing List Archive

Sprint Peering Requirements? WAS More network problems (fwd)
I got this from one of our downstream customers.

Is there any truth to this ?

-forrestc@imach.com

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 11:07:57 -0700
From: Nate Williams <nate@sri.MT.net>
To: forrestc@mt.net
Subject: More network problems

OK, here's the scoop, from the network weenie at Walnut Creek.

> Okay, here's what you can do...Have your ISP contact Sprint and
> complain that they don't have connectivity to CRL network
> Services. CRL has T3s at several places that Sprint is at, but Sprint
> won't peer with them (Sprint has some stupid new requirements,
> apparantly, requiring peering at 3 NAPs.) No problem - all of CRLs are
> on 7507s :-)
>
> Anyway, CRL is at 2 NAPs - Washington DC and PacBell. Sprint's just
> being stubborn. ...anyway, have them complain to Sprint. The contact
> person at CRL is Eric Mehlhaff (415) 837 5300, he's the cheif network
> engineer.
>
> (pass this info on to Sprint, but don't have your ISP call CRL - Eric
> would just be annoyed).
>
> Eric is trying to force Sprint to peer with them at DS3 speeds
> (45mbit), and this might help.

Right now, I can get to WC in-directly by going through sri.com, but
this isn't acceptable as I need direct IP connectivity to get the latest
source bits.



Nate
Re: Sprint Peering Requirements? WAS More network problems (fwd) [ In reply to ]
>I got this from one of our downstream customers.
>
>Is there any truth to this ?
>> Okay, here's what you can do...Have your ISP contact Sprint and
>> complain that they don't have connectivity to CRL network
>> Services. CRL has T3s at several places that Sprint is at, but Sprint
>> won't peer with them (Sprint has some stupid new requirements,
>> apparantly, requiring peering at 3 NAPs.) No problem - all of CRLs are
>> on 7507s :-)
>>
>> Anyway, CRL is at 2 NAPs - Washington DC and PacBell. Sprint's just
>> being stubborn. ...anyway, have them complain to Sprint. The contact
>> person at CRL is Eric Mehlhaff (415) 837 5300, he's the cheif network
>> engineer.

Sprint should take CRL up on CRL's offer :-). CRL has been telling
me for months CRL can't peer at the Washington DC MAE-East because
all of CRL's BGP peer slots at Mae-East are on "allocation." And
therefore CRL doesn't have room for any more peers in DC.

mae-east> show cdp neigh detail
[...]
Device ID: gwdca1.crl.com
Entry address(es):
IP address: 192.41.177.104
Platform: cisco 2500, Capabilities: Router Trans-Bridge
Interface: Fddi0/0, Port ID (outgoing port): Ethernet1
Holdtime : 166 sec

Version :
Cisco Internetwork Operating System Software
IOS (tm) 3000 Software (IGS-I-L), Version 11.0(2), RELEASE SOFTWARE (fc1)
Copyright (c) 1986-1995 by cisco Systems, Inc.
Compiled Mon 25-Sep-95 18:34 by deannaw

In the meantime just dump the Sprintlink traffic through Sprint's T1
line at the CIX, and let Sprint backhaul it to the other coast.

Its a great sales opportunity when Sprint customers call ask why
performance is so bad. Our network engineers may not like Sean Doran,
but our sales people sure do. We've had several Sprint customers buy
direct circuits to our network because Sprint's peering policies caused
their traffic to travel the long way (and sometimes get lost along the
way). As long as Sprint keeps refusing, you get to look like the helpfull
company trying to meet the customer's needs.
--
Sean Donelan, Data Research Associates, Inc, St. Louis, MO
Affiliation given for identification not representation
Re: Sprint Peering Requirements? WAS More network problems (fwd) [ In reply to ]
> In the meantime just dump the Sprintlink traffic through Sprint's T1
> line at the CIX, and let Sprint backhaul it to the other coast.

That link has been down for 19 hours. I'm not sure what the problem is;
the T1 IXC won't talk to me about it since it's not my circuit.
Re: Sprint Peering Requirements? WAS More network problems (fwd) [ In reply to ]
>> In the meantime just dump the Sprintlink traffic through Sprint's T1
>> line at the CIX, and let Sprint backhaul it to the other coast.
>
>That link has been down for 19 hours. I'm not sure what the problem is;
>the T1 IXC won't talk to me about it since it's not my circuit.

Awsome, the sales people will love that :-). A policy against the use
of available alternate paths results in a single failure turning into a
prolonged outage. I love big providers, they make it so easy.

At least Sprint has a policy. MCI's and AGIS's lawyers have been working
on a policy for months. But haven't come up with a coherent one yet.

P.S. what is the deal with the Santa Clara POP anyway? I've seen gas
main explosions, circuits cut by a blowtorch (gee? maybe they're related),
"missing" fiber, "lost" circuits, and other shenangans. This time I'm
glad we followed WorldCom's (WilTel, whatevertheirnameisthisweek) site
recommendation and used DC power for our equipment. But this POP is
like working out of a telecommunications war zone.
--
Sean Donelan, Data Research Associates, Inc, St. Louis, MO
Affiliation given for identification not representation
Re: Sprint Peering Requirements? WAS More network problems (fwd) [ In reply to ]
> >That link has been down for 19 hours. I'm not sure what the problem is;
> >the T1 IXC won't talk to me about it since it's not my circuit.
>
> Awsome, the sales people will love that :-). A policy against the use
> of available alternate paths results in a single failure turning into a
> prolonged outage. I love big providers, they make it so easy.

Wait a sec. I've got my share of gripes about Sprint, but I will say that
it's not their fault Pac Bell won't talk to me about a line that isn't mine.
The Sprint folks have had to change some things over in Stockton due to Pac
Bell's response to WilTel's power failure -- this is stuff that should not
happen. The folks inside Sprint have been very helpful. So let's not make
this into a Sprint bashing session, OK?

> P.S. what is the deal with the Santa Clara POP anyway? I've seen gas
> main explosions, circuits cut by a blowtorch (gee? maybe they're related),
> "missing" fiber, "lost" circuits, and other shenangans.

The story may be growing with the telling, but I was told that a gas main
ruptured, with or without a small explosion (depends on who you ask), and
the fire marshall came in, smelled natural fumes all over, and ordered that
power be cut to the surrounding buildings, presumably to prevent explosions
due to sparks and such. WilTel ultimately brought in a portable generator
and put this wonderful new spark generator out in the parking lot, closer
to the natural gas fumes than anything inside the building would have been.

> This time I'm
> glad we followed WorldCom's (WilTel, whatevertheirnameisthisweek) site
> recommendation and used DC power for our equipment. But this POP is
> like working out of a telecommunications war zone.

That's one of several good reasons why CIX has installed a router up in
Digital's Palo Alto facility (I'd call it a NAP, since it has rack space
for rent and GIGAswitches all over the place, but "NAP" seems to indicate
congressional funding so I'll choose another word... "Interconnect/CoLo"
(ICL)). In addition to having both AC and DC on UPS and a generator, Palo
Alto has actual coffee houses for those late night adventures.
Re: Sprint Peering Requirements? WAS More network problems (fwd) [ In reply to ]
Recently, Paul Vixie wrote...
>
> > P.S. what is the deal with the Santa Clara POP anyway? I've seen gas
> > main explosions, circuits cut by a blowtorch (gee? maybe they're related),
> > "missing" fiber, "lost" circuits, and other shenangans.
>
> The story may be growing with the telling, but I was told that a gas main
> ruptured, with or without a small explosion (depends on who you ask), and
> the fire marshall came in, smelled natural fumes all over, and ordered that
> power be cut to the surrounding buildings, presumably to prevent explosions
> due to sparks and such. WilTel ultimately brought in a portable generator
> and put this wonderful new spark generator out in the parking lot, closer
> to the natural gas fumes than anything inside the building would have been.

*sigh*

I'd kinda hoped the issue would die down, but since it won't, I guess
I'll actually speak up.

I was driving to work, running a bit late at around 11:10 am, and turned
west on Walsh Avenue from San Tomas. I pulled into the left turn lane
leading into the business park, and noticed the driveway was blocked
with orange cones and a backhoe digging. A woman in a dark, Pennsylvania
green lincoln towncar pulled up into the left turn lane behind me. When
the left turn arrow turned green, I made a u-turn on Walsh, and entered
the business park via a secondary driveway closer to San Tomas. I glanced
in my rear-view mirror, and saw that the woman in the green car was
stopped midway through the intersection, blocking oncoming traffic,
waiting for the construction crew to move the cones to let her into
the parking lot via that driveway; I guess she figured the earth
rotated around her, so why shouldn't everyone else change to fit?
So, as I pulled into the parking lot in front of work, I looked over
at the entrance, and saw that the construction workers were attempting
to be nice, and were moving the cones out of the way, and trying to
back up the backhoe so she could go past, and stop blocking the
traffic that was now getting very irate. :-) As the worker in
the backhoe was pulling the bucket out of the hole, he must have
hit the main, because there was a very loud "kawoosh" and a blast
of white condesation headed skyward. The construction crew started
running away from the hole, and I headed into work to alert my
coworkers to the problem.
One of my coworkers called PG&E while a second one called 911. PG&E
immediately said they were dispatching a crew to the site, and also
told us to begin shutting down any exterior equipment that was
likely to cause sparks. By this time, the smell of natural gas
was nearly overpowering outside, and was becoming more so
indoors. We began shutting down all the air conditioners on the
roof, and began prepping the site for evacuation. Within about
15 minutes, the fire dept. had arrived, as had PG&E, and began
roping off the area, and had us evacuate the building. We used
cellular phones to call back in, and changed the outgoing
messages for the NOC and tech support ACD queues to alert
customers that we had been evacuated, and could not currently
come to the phones. :-)

PG&E began working on isolating the section of pipe, but within
15 minutes of their arrival, a spark triggered a fireball that
roasted the dump truck, the backhoe, the tree nearby, the signs,
and pretty much everything else in the vicinity. The one good
offshoot of the fireball was that the pipe was actually burning
now, and sending flames ~75 feet in a nice vertical column; the
fire dept. immediately pulled hoses into place, to keep the fire
contained to the single jet, and the nice folks next door at
Wiltel rolled out their 75kVa generator out the BACK of the
building, which was approx 150 yards from the actual gas leak,
and fired it up, since there wasn't much danger of an explosion
now that there was a constant flame source burning off the gas
as it emerged.

Since we couldn't get to our cars, we walked to lunch, and
answered pages from various customers who noticed that
network connectivity was spotty or nonexistent to large
areas, and explained the situation. We got back to
work by about 2:30pm, the fire was still going, but PG&E
was working on clamping off the pipe physically a few
dozen yards upstream; once the pipe was crushed, and the
fire out, it only took about an hour to get clearance from
the incident commander to air out the building, get santa
clara electric to restore power, reset the PDU, reset the
UPS's, and by 3:30 full network connectivity through our
network was restored.

Hopefully this clarifies the situation from a firsthand
witness, and keeps people from blaming Wiltel for sparks
or any other such nonsense.

> > This time I'm
> > glad we followed WorldCom's (WilTel, whatevertheirnameisthisweek) site
> > recommendation and used DC power for our equipment. But this POP is
> > like working out of a telecommunications war zone.
>
> That's one of several good reasons why CIX has installed a router up in
> Digital's Palo Alto facility (I'd call it a NAP, since it has rack space
> for rent and GIGAswitches all over the place, but "NAP" seems to indicate
> congressional funding so I'll choose another word... "Interconnect/CoLo"
> (ICL)). In addition to having both AC and DC on UPS and a generator, Palo
> Alto has actual coffee houses for those late night adventures.
>

Matt Petach
RE: Sprint Peering Requirements? WAS More network problems (fwd) [ In reply to ]
On Saturday, March 16, 1996 5:47 AM, Matthew Petach[SMTP:mpetach@falcon.netflight.com] wrote:
@
@Recently, Paul Vixie wrote...
@>
@> > P.S. what is the deal with the Santa Clara POP anyway? I've seen gas
@> > main explosions, circuits cut by a blowtorch (gee? maybe they're related),
@> > "missing" fiber, "lost" circuits, and other shenangans.
@>
@> The story may be growing with the telling, but I was told that a gas main
@> ruptured, with or without a small explosion (depends on who you ask), and
@> the fire marshall came in, smelled natural fumes all over, and ordered that
@> power be cut to the surrounding buildings, presumably to prevent explosions
@> due to sparks and such. WilTel ultimately brought in a portable generator
@> and put this wonderful new spark generator out in the parking lot, closer
@> to the natural gas fumes than anything inside the building would have been.
@
@*sigh*
@
@I'd kinda hoped the issue would die down, but since it won't, I guess
@I'll actually speak up.
@
@I was driving to work, running a bit late at around 11:10 am, and turned
@west on Walsh Avenue from San Tomas. I pulled into the left turn lane
@leading into the business park, and noticed the driveway was blocked
@with orange cones and a backhoe digging. A woman in a dark, Pennsylvania
@green lincoln towncar pulled up into the left turn lane behind me. When
@the left turn arrow turned green, I made a u-turn on Walsh, and entered
@the business park via a secondary driveway closer to San Tomas. I glanced
@in my rear-view mirror, and saw that the woman in the green car was
@stopped midway through the intersection, blocking oncoming traffic,
@waiting for the construction crew to move the cones to let her into
@the parking lot via that driveway; I guess she figured the earth
@rotated around her, so why shouldn't everyone else change to fit?\


So the moral of this story is that we all have to beware of people that
drive Lincoln Town cars...making accomodations to them could cause
the Internet to crash and burn...this is especially true if they have an
out of state license...:-)

I think that this criteria could be added to the IP Address Allocation
and Domain Name policies...I can just see the RFC..."individuals that
drive Lincoln Town cars will not be considered as qualified or able to
become an ISP....only people with Berkinstocks and Bicycles will be
considered for a /8 as long as you have $10 million in venture capital"...

Just kidding...everyone should have equal access to Internet resources...
although an official at the NSF told me that he did not think this was a goal,
a given, or even a good thing...


Jim Fleming
UNETY Systems, Inc.
Naperville, IL 60563

e-mail: JimFleming@unety.net
Re: Sprint Peering Requirements? WAS More network problems (fwd) [ In reply to ]
Recently, Paul Vixie wrote...
>
> > P.S. what is the deal with the Santa Clara POP anyway? I've seen gas
> > main explosions, circuits cut by a blowtorch (gee? maybe they're related),
> > "missing" fiber, "lost" circuits, and other shenangans.
>
> The story may be growing with the telling, but I was told that a gas main
> ruptured, with or without a small explosion (depends on who you ask), and
> the fire marshall came in, smelled natural fumes all over, and ordered that
> power be cut to the surrounding buildings, presumably to prevent explosions
> due to sparks and such. WilTel ultimately brought in a portable generator
> and put this wonderful new spark generator out in the parking lot, closer
> to the natural gas fumes than anything inside the building would have been.

*sigh*

I'd kinda hoped the issue would die down, but since it won't, I guess
I'll actually speak up.

I was driving to work, running a bit late at around 11:10 am, and turned
west on Walsh Avenue from San Tomas. I pulled into the left turn lane
leading into the business park, and noticed the driveway was blocked
with orange cones and a backhoe digging. A woman in a dark, Pennsylvania
green lincoln towncar pulled up into the left turn lane behind me. When
the left turn arrow turned green, I made a u-turn on Walsh, and entered
the business park via a secondary driveway closer to San Tomas. I glanced
in my rear-view mirror, and saw that the woman in the green car was
stopped midway through the intersection, blocking oncoming traffic,
waiting for the construction crew to move the cones to let her into
the parking lot via that driveway; I guess she figured the earth
rotated around her, so why shouldn't everyone else change to fit?
So, as I pulled into the parking lot in front of work, I looked over
at the entrance, and saw that the construction workers were attempting
to be nice, and were moving the cones out of the way, and trying to
back up the backhoe so she could go past, and stop blocking the
traffic that was now getting very irate. :-) As the worker in
the backhoe was pulling the bucket out of the hole, he must have
hit the main, because there was a very loud "kawoosh" and a blast
of white condesation headed skyward. The construction crew started
running away from the hole, and I headed into work to alert my
coworkers to the problem.
One of my coworkers called PG&E while a second one called 911. PG&E
immediately said they were dispatching a crew to the site, and also
told us to begin shutting down any exterior equipment that was
likely to cause sparks. By this time, the smell of natural gas
was nearly overpowering outside, and was becoming more so
indoors. We began shutting down all the air conditioners on the
roof, and began prepping the site for evacuation. Within about
15 minutes, the fire dept. had arrived, as had PG&E, and began
roping off the area, and had us evacuate the building. We used
cellular phones to call back in, and changed the outgoing
messages for the NOC and tech support ACD queues to alert
customers that we had been evacuated, and could not currently
come to the phones. :-)

PG&E began working on isolating the section of pipe, but within
15 minutes of their arrival, a spark triggered a fireball that
roasted the dump truck, the backhoe, the tree nearby, the signs,
and pretty much everything else in the vicinity. The one good
offshoot of the fireball was that the pipe was actually burning
now, and sending flames ~75 feet in a nice vertical column; the
fire dept. immediately pulled hoses into place, to keep the fire
contained to the single jet, and the nice folks next door at
Wiltel rolled out their 75kVa generator out the BACK of the
building, which was approx 150 yards from the actual gas leak,
and fired it up, since there wasn't much danger of an explosion
now that there was a constant flame source burning off the gas
as it emerged.

Since we couldn't get to our cars, we walked to lunch, and
answered pages from various customers who noticed that
network connectivity was spotty or nonexistent to large
areas, and explained the situation. We got back to
work by about 2:30pm, the fire was still going, but PG&E
was working on clamping off the pipe physically a few
dozen yards upstream; once the pipe was crushed, and the
fire out, it only took about an hour to get clearance from
the incident commander to air out the building, get santa
clara electric to restore power, reset the PDU, reset the
UPS's, and by 3:30 full network connectivity through our
network was restored.

Hopefully this clarifies the situation from a firsthand
witness, and keeps people from blaming Wiltel for sparks
or any other such nonsense.

> > This time I'm
> > glad we followed WorldCom's (WilTel, whatevertheirnameisthisweek) site
> > recommendation and used DC power for our equipment. But this POP is
> > like working out of a telecommunications war zone.
>
> That's one of several good reasons why CIX has installed a router up in
> Digital's Palo Alto facility (I'd call it a NAP, since it has rack space
> for rent and GIGAswitches all over the place, but "NAP" seems to indicate
> congressional funding so I'll choose another word... "Interconnect/CoLo"
> (ICL)). In addition to having both AC and DC on UPS and a generator, Palo
> Alto has actual coffee houses for those late night adventures.
>

Matt Petach
Re: Sprint Peering Requirements? WAS More network problems [ In reply to ]
Donna,

Your description of the events surrounding the 'much discussed'
outage was excellent.

Accidents can and do happen. Those who have been understanding
and helpful to those involved in the accident and outage should
be commended.

continuing.....

I remember when I was in my early 20s working as a land surveyor
in the deep south. One of my 'previous life' tasks was to survey
the land and mark the locations of gas pipelines. I actually
cut trees and hacked jungle in the swawp of Louisiana for
100s of miles, fighting snakes and mosquitos and big lizards
every day, not to mention the rains and floods of the bayous
of the lower delta country. ( thinking back, it was hard work
but fun for a young man!)

Everyday we would follow the planned route, hack and cut jungle,
and take very long iron bars and probe the swampland for the
gas lines. I'll never forget the feel of iron against iron,
probe against pipe, 10-20 feet underground. We probed every
few hundred feet, if my memory survives the years.

Fortunately, besides hangovers from too much partying in the
Louisiana swamps the nights before working, we never experience
a construction accident. Our entire life was focused on
providing information that was essential for the safety of
the lives of the heavy equipment operators and others.
( and heavy partying in the southern bayou country at night ;)

With all due respects to the Internet loss of service outage....

..... "Let the good times roll"

Regards,

Tim
Re: Sprint Peering Requirements? WAS More network problems [ In reply to ]
Ackk,

I have embarrased myself! The excellent first hand account of the incident
at the wiltel pop was by Matt Petach. I enjoyed it so much that i forwarded
it and, shame on me, overlooked the cc to the list.

My apologies to all.

All Credit to Matt.

donna


At 09:30 AM 03/31/96 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Donna,
>
>Your description of the events surrounding the 'much discussed'
>outage was excellent.
>