Mailing List Archive

> *READ MORE
> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://nanog.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u%3D4d708401d0e69d9dc73d1c204%26id%3Dd77e95d2fb%26e%3De429f79d5a&source=gmail&ust=1694187666719000&usg=AOvVaw3Cfz_DNu6fUMvOglI_i3nd>Last

can we please get URLs without all the invasive tracking?

randy

That would be to ask every generation afterwards to abide by the same standards that will not unfortunately.

Is there a rebranding/rewriting url configuration available for mailman ?

> On Sep 7, 2023, at 11:25, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>
>> *READ MORE
>> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://nanog.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u%3D4d708401d0e69d9dc73d1c204%26id%3Dd77e95d2fb%26e%3De429f79d5a&source=gmail&ust=1694187666719000&usg=AOvVaw3Cfz_DNu6fUMvOglI_i3nd>Last
>
> can we please get URLs without all the invasive tracking?
>
> randy


--

J. Hellenthal

The fact that there's a highway to Hell but only a stairway to Heaven says a lot about anticipated traffic volume.

> On Sep 7, 2023, at 10:25 AM, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>
>> *READ MORE
>> <https://www.google.com/url?q=https://nanog.us20.list-manage.com/track/click?u%3D4d708401d0e69d9dc73d1c204%26id%3Dd77e95d2fb%26e%3De429f79d5a&source=gmail&ust=1694187666719000&usg=AOvVaw3Cfz_DNu6fUMvOglI_i3nd>Last
>
> can we please get URLs without all the invasive tracking?

list-manage.com is Mailchimp; not sure it's possible to turn off tracking when using an ESP like that. :-(

Anne

--
Anne P. Mitchell
Attorney at Law
Email Law & Policy Attorney
CEO Institute for Social Internet Public Policy (ISIPP)
Author: Section 6 of the CAN-SPAM Act of 2003 (the Federal email marketing law)
Author: The Email Deliverability Handbook
Board of Directors, Denver Internet Exchange
Dean Emeritus, Cyberlaw & Cybersecurity, Lincoln Law School
Prof. Emeritus, Lincoln Law School
Chair Emeritus, Asilomar Microcomputer Workshop
Counsel Emeritus, eMail Abuse Prevention System (MAPS)

It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just
need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their
"free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling
the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:

https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/

"Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the
box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to
redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against
malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking,
Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account
activity thresholds are met."

Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that
MailChimp inserts by default, too:

https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/

John

Dear NANOG-ers,
Hope this email finds you in good health!

Le jeudi 7 septembre 2023, Anne Mitchell <amitchell@isipp.com> a écrit :

>
> > [...]
> >
> > can we please get URLs without all the invasive tracking?
>
> list-manage.com is Mailchimp;


>
>
Hi Anne,
Thanks for your email.

Sure! but the question could be:
Isn't why the mailinglist was chosen? :-/



> not sure it's possible to turn off tracking when using an ESP like that.
> :-(
>
>
It should be simply a matter of sharing an URI with
a title and small intro...

The content of the email could be collected via a
FLOSS RSS [1] feed agregator and sent to the
mailinglist, in a regular basis.
__
[1]: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSS>

No need to "over" track list-ers.
...that kind of MitM [2] isn't desirable/necessary!
__
[2]: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keep_away>


Shalom,
--sb.



> Anne
>
> [...]



--

Best Regards !
__
baya.sylvain[AT cmNOG DOT cm]|<https://cmnog.cm/dokuwiki/Structure>
Subscribe to Mailing List: <https://lists.cmnog.cm/mailman/listinfo/cmnog/>
__
#?LASAINTEBIBLE?|#?Romains15?:33«Que LE ?#?DIEU? de ?#?Paix? soit avec vous
tous! ?#?Amen?!»
?#?MaPrière? est que tu naisses de nouveau. #Chrétiennement?
«Comme une biche soupire après des courants d’eau, ainsi mon âme soupire
après TOI, ô DIEU!»(#Psaumes42:2)

> It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just
> need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their
> "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling
> the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:
>
> https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/
>
> "Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the
> box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to
> redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against
> malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking,
> Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account
> activity thresholds are met."
>
> Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that
> MailChimp inserts by default, too:
>
> https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/

as usual, the problem is not technical. there is no need for mailchump
at all.

nanog management has made a very intentional decision to sell my
privacy. nanog has come a long way, not all of it good.

randy

Randy,

You're right, the problem is not technical. It's a choice to click the links or not. NANOG does not have to sanitize links for you. Those emails do not have to be read, and no one is stopping you from filtering them out. For you to say, "my privacy has been sold", is simply not true.

Ryan

________________________________
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org> on behalf of Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 5:25 PM
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
Cc: nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: Guest Column: Kentik's Doug Madory, Last Call for Upcoming ISOC Course + More

Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments.


> It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just
> need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their
> "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling
> the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:
>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailchimp.com%2Fhelp%2Fenable-and-view-click-tracking%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C4ac3a26bb5c4481c087908dbb0cbc6d7%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638298161499653329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Pw6uDgHDzT%2BavOz1jYAbG4VzTyP0en0oiuBq0PmTtVI%3D&reserved=0<https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/>
>
> "Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the
> box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to
> redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against
> malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking,
> Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account
> activity thresholds are met."
>
> Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that
> MailChimp inserts by default, too:
>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailchimp.com%2Fhelp%2Fabout-open-tracking%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C4ac3a26bb5c4481c087908dbb0cbc6d7%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638298161499653329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iqkTsuhDFD3poxVltrN4x%2FWY6eXpbIivWxf4VAWcXKA%3D&reserved=0<https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/>

as usual, the problem is not technical. there is no need for mailchump
at all.

nanog management has made a very intentional decision to sell my
privacy. nanog has come a long way, not all of it good.

randy

What network does Nanog-news operate?

Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its NANOG
marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement).

Warm regards,

-M<


On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 20:52 Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org> wrote:

> Randy,
>
> You're right, the problem is not technical. It's a choice to click the
> links or not. NANOG does not have to sanitize links for you. Those emails
> do not have to be read, and no one is stopping you from filtering them out.
> For you to say, "my privacy has been sold", is simply not true.
>
> Ryan
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org> on behalf of
> Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, September 8, 2023 5:25 PM
> *To:* John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Guest Column: Kentik's Doug Madory, Last Call for Upcoming
> ISOC Course + More
>
> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care
> when clicking links or opening attachments.
>
>
> > It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just
> > need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their
> > "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling
> > the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:
> >
> >
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailchimp.com%2Fhelp%2Fenable-and-view-click-tracking%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C4ac3a26bb5c4481c087908dbb0cbc6d7%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638298161499653329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Pw6uDgHDzT%2BavOz1jYAbG4VzTyP0en0oiuBq0PmTtVI%3D&reserved=0
> <https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/>
> >
> > "Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the
> > box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to
> > redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against
> > malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking,
> > Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account
> > activity thresholds are met."
> >
> > Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that
> > MailChimp inserts by default, too:
> >
> >
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailchimp.com%2Fhelp%2Fabout-open-tracking%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C4ac3a26bb5c4481c087908dbb0cbc6d7%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638298161499653329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iqkTsuhDFD3poxVltrN4x%2FWY6eXpbIivWxf4VAWcXKA%3D&reserved=0
> <https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/>
>
>
> as usual, the problem is not technical. there is no need for mailchump
> at all.
>
> nanog management has made a very intentional decision to sell my
> privacy. nanog has come a long way, not all of it good.
>
> randy
>

Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org> wrote:
> For you to say, "my privacy has been sold", is simply not true.

I agree with you somewhat about tracking links. They only spy on a
person when that person tries to follow them. I do find it much less
useful to read mailing lists that include references to external
resources that I decline to access, because I don't want to follow
bugged links.

But the "web bugs" that I mentioned as a second default-on Mailchimp
tracking technology ARE specifically designed to be triggered any time a
recipient reads a message in an HTML-based web browser.

Back when postal mail was the default, senders had no idea whether the
recipient opened, read, or forwarded a letter, versus tossing it into
the fireplace as kindling. Society carried forward that expectation
when postal mail was gradually replaced by electronic mail. Ordinary
email senders don't know if you have read their message (unless they get
social clues from your subsequent actions, just as with paper mail).
Tracking was never part of the Internet email protocols; it was glued-on
by abusing HTML email features and making unique URLs sent to each
recipient, whose corresponding web server logs when they are accessed.

These email tracking technologies deliberately violate the social
expectation that reading a letter is a private act. They produce
detailed records of the private, in-home or at-work activities of every
recipient. They do all this covertly; you will not find a MailChimp
mailing list message plainly telling you, "If you want to safeguard your
privacy as an email reader, do not open these messages, because we have
filled them with spyware." That would produce too many unsubscribes and
too much outrage. Instead, a recipient has to be technically
sophisticated to even notice that it's happening. (Many bulk email
senders also don't know that their emails have spyware quietly inserted
into them as they are distributed. I have engaged on this topic with
many nonprofit CEOs and marketing executives, who really had no idea.)

Those detailed email-reading and link-clicking records are not just
accessible to the sender. There's an agency problem. They are kept and
stored and sold by the intermediary (MailChimp), both individually and
in bulk. They are accessible to any government that wants to ask,
without a warrant, without probable cause, in bulk or individually,
since they are "third-party" records about you, like your banking
records or license-plate-reader records. They are accessible to private
investigators via data brokers. They are accessible to any business
that offers a sufficiently attractive deal to MailChimp -- places like
Google or Facebook who make billions of dollars a year from tracking
people to manipulate them with advertising.

And wouldn't you like to know just which emails your competitors'
engineers and executives are reading, and when, and where, and how many
times, and whether they forwarded the messages? (I've often wanted the
Google Detective Agency, that I could merely pay to tell me what my wife
or my competitor or that rude guy who insulted me is searching for on
Google, what web pages they are looking at, what emails they are reading
or sending, and exactly where they are navigating in their car or on
their bike or on transit. Google has all this information; why won't
they sell it to me? They definitely sell it to the government, so why
not to me? It's amazing to me that people treat Google like Santa Claus
giving them free gifts, when it's really like an NSA.gov that is
unencumbered by laws or oversight. MailChimp isn't as bad as Google.
Its scope is smaller, but its defaults are deliberately bad, and it's
created quite a honeypot of trillions of records about billions of
people. The point is that besides being a gross violation of the
personal privacy of the home and office, this data also has real
commercial value.

I suggest that as a technically aware organization, NANOG.org should not
be creating detailed spy dossiers on its members who read emails, and
then letting its subcontractor MailChimp sell or trade that info out
into the world.

John Gilmore

A friend once commented, "If it's free, -=YOU=- are the product." It
should be updated to, "If it's free, -=YOU & EVERYONE YOU INTERACT WITH=-
are the product."

/herb

On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 10:25?AM John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com> wrote:

> It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just
> need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their
> "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling
> the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:
>
> https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/
>
> "Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the
> box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to
> redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against
> malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking,
> Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account
> activity thresholds are met."
>
> Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that
> MailChimp inserts by default, too:
>
> https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/
>
> John
>

>
> What network does Nanog-news operate?
>
> Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its NANOG
> marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement).
>

This is the right comment.

The NANOG Mailing List Usage Guidelines (
https://www.nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/ ) are fairly clear about
this.

Posts to NANOG’s Mailing List should be focused on operational and
> technical content only, as described by the NANOG Bylaws.
> Using the NANOG Mailing List as a source for private marketing
> initiatives, or product marketing of any kind, is prohibited.


Sending this type of message to nanog@ is not appropriate, by our own
rules. This issue will be raised at the next members meeting.




On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 9:39?PM Martin Hannigan <hannigan@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> What network does Nanog-news operate?
>
> Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its NANOG
> marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement).
>
> Warm regards,
>
> -M<
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 20:52 Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org> wrote:
>
>> Randy,
>>
>> You're right, the problem is not technical. It's a choice to click the
>> links or not. NANOG does not have to sanitize links for you. Those emails
>> do not have to be read, and no one is stopping you from filtering them out.
>> For you to say, "my privacy has been sold", is simply not true.
>>
>> Ryan
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org> on behalf of
>> Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
>> *Sent:* Friday, September 8, 2023 5:25 PM
>> *To:* John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
>> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org>
>> *Subject:* Re: Guest Column: Kentik's Doug Madory, Last Call for
>> Upcoming ISOC Course + More
>>
>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care
>> when clicking links or opening attachments.
>>
>>
>> > It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just
>> > need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their
>> > "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling
>> > the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:
>> >
>> >
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailchimp.com%2Fhelp%2Fenable-and-view-click-tracking%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C4ac3a26bb5c4481c087908dbb0cbc6d7%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638298161499653329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Pw6uDgHDzT%2BavOz1jYAbG4VzTyP0en0oiuBq0PmTtVI%3D&reserved=0
>> <https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/>
>> >
>> > "Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the
>> > box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to
>> > redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against
>> > malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking,
>> > Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account
>> > activity thresholds are met."
>> >
>> > Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that
>> > MailChimp inserts by default, too:
>> >
>> >
>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailchimp.com%2Fhelp%2Fabout-open-tracking%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C4ac3a26bb5c4481c087908dbb0cbc6d7%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638298161499653329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iqkTsuhDFD3poxVltrN4x%2FWY6eXpbIivWxf4VAWcXKA%3D&reserved=0
>> <https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/>
>>
>>
>> as usual, the problem is not technical. there is no need for mailchump
>> at all.
>>
>> nanog management has made a very intentional decision to sell my
>> privacy. nanog has come a long way, not all of it good.
>>
>> randy
>>
>

Martin and Tom,

How is it a private marketing initiative exactly if the links go to stories on NANOG's website? Are you saying the very org that brings us together, is not allowed to spur discussion based on newsletter content and cannot provide us with updates and/or reminders about various things?

Y'all have been making a mountain out of a molehill.

Ryan

________________________________
From: Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc>
Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2023 9:30:13 AM
To: Martin Hannigan <hannigan@gmail.com>
Cc: Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org>; nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org>
Subject: Re: Guest Column: Kentik's Doug Madory, Last Call for Upcoming ISOC Course + More

Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments.

What network does Nanog-news operate?

Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its NANOG marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement).

This is the right comment.

The NANOG Mailing List Usage Guidelines ( https://www.nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/ ) are fairly clear about this.

Posts to NANOG’s Mailing List should be focused on operational and technical content only, as described by the NANOG Bylaws.
Using the NANOG Mailing List as a source for private marketing initiatives, or product marketing of any kind, is prohibited.

Sending this type of message to nanog@ is not appropriate, by our own rules. This issue will be raised at the next members meeting.




On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 9:39?PM Martin Hannigan <hannigan@gmail.com<mailto:hannigan@gmail.com>> wrote:

What network does Nanog-news operate?

Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its NANOG marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement).

Warm regards,

-M<


On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 20:52 Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org<mailto:ryan@rkhtech.org>> wrote:
Randy,

You're right, the problem is not technical. It's a choice to click the links or not. NANOG does not have to sanitize links for you. Those emails do not have to be read, and no one is stopping you from filtering them out. For you to say, "my privacy has been sold", is simply not true.

Ryan

________________________________
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org<mailto:rkhtech.org@nanog.org>> on behalf of Randy Bush <randy@psg.com<mailto:randy@psg.com>>
Sent: Friday, September 8, 2023 5:25 PM
To: John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com<mailto:gnu@toad.com>>
Cc: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>>
Subject: Re: Guest Column: Kentik's Doug Madory, Last Call for Upcoming ISOC Course + More

Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care when clicking links or opening attachments.


> It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just
> need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their
> "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling
> the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:
>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailchimp.com%2Fhelp%2Fenable-and-view-click-tracking%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C4ac3a26bb5c4481c087908dbb0cbc6d7%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638298161499653329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Pw6uDgHDzT%2BavOz1jYAbG4VzTyP0en0oiuBq0PmTtVI%3D&reserved=0<https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/>
>
> "Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the
> box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to
> redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against
> malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking,
> Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account
> activity thresholds are met."
>
> Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that
> MailChimp inserts by default, too:
>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailchimp.com%2Fhelp%2Fabout-open-tracking%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C4ac3a26bb5c4481c087908dbb0cbc6d7%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638298161499653329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iqkTsuhDFD3poxVltrN4x%2FWY6eXpbIivWxf4VAWcXKA%3D&reserved=0<https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/>


as usual, the problem is not technical. there is no need for mailchump
at all.

nanog management has made a very intentional decision to sell my
privacy. nanog has come a long way, not all of it good.

randy

On Sat, Sep 9, 2023 at 12:30 Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:

> What network does Nanog-news operate?
>>
>> Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its
>> NANOG marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement).
>>
>
> This is the right comment.
>
> The NANOG Mailing List Usage Guidelines (
> https://www.nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/ ) are fairly clear
> about this.
>
> Posts to NANOG’s Mailing List should be focused on operational and
>> technical content only, as described by the NANOG Bylaws.
>> Using the NANOG Mailing List as a source for private marketing
>> initiatives, or product marketing of any kind, is prohibited.
>
>
> Sending this type of message to nanog@ is not appropriate, by our own
> rules. This issue will be raised at the next members meeting.
>

Thats great. Thanks. This started to happen sometime around June looking at
the sender address and my inbox. It would be nice to be opt-in vs opt-out
and that labels are crafted to not confuse the ops list with others. I also
agree with Randy that if we can strip out the trackers here that is key.
Consistent with culture and history. Course adjustment ++.

Hope thats constructive. Thanks!

>
> Are you saying the very org that brings us together, is not allowed to
> spur discussion based on newsletter content and cannot provide us with
> updates and/or reminders about various things?
>

I don't believe anyone is making that argument at all.

The published usage guidelines are what the organization, via the
membership, decided they should be. Those guidelines are clear that on THIS
mailing list (nanog@) , marketing initiatives aren't allowed.There is no
exception that says 'except for our own marketing'.

This list is for 'operational and technical content only'. We can't ban
people for trying to sneak marketing stuff through here (and we have) , and
then turn right around and do it ourselves.





On Sat, Sep 9, 2023 at 12:48?PM Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org> wrote:

> Martin and Tom,
>
> How is it a private marketing initiative exactly if the links go to
> stories on NANOG's website? Are you saying the very org that brings us
> together, is not allowed to spur discussion based on newsletter content and
> cannot provide us with updates and/or reminders about various things?
>
> Y'all have been making a mountain out of a molehill.
>
> Ryan
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc>
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 9, 2023 9:30:13 AM
> *To:* Martin Hannigan <hannigan@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org>; nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Guest Column: Kentik's Doug Madory, Last Call for Upcoming
> ISOC Course + More
>
> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care
> when clicking links or opening attachments.
>
> What network does Nanog-news operate?
>>
>> Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its
>> NANOG marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement).
>>
>
> This is the right comment.
>
> The NANOG Mailing List Usage Guidelines (
> https://www.nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/ ) are fairly clear
> about this.
>
> Posts to NANOG’s Mailing List should be focused on operational and
>> technical content only, as described by the NANOG Bylaws.
>> Using the NANOG Mailing List as a source for private marketing
>> initiatives, or product marketing of any kind, is prohibited.
>
>
> Sending this type of message to nanog@ is not appropriate, by our own
> rules. This issue will be raised at the next members meeting.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 9:39?PM Martin Hannigan <hannigan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> What network does Nanog-news operate?
>>
>> Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its
>> NANOG marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement).
>>
>> Warm regards,
>>
>> -M<
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 20:52 Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Randy,
>>>
>>> You're right, the problem is not technical. It's a choice to click the
>>> links or not. NANOG does not have to sanitize links for you. Those emails
>>> do not have to be read, and no one is stopping you from filtering them out.
>>> For you to say, "my privacy has been sold", is simply not true.
>>>
>>> Ryan
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech.org@nanog.org> on behalf of
>>> Randy Bush <randy@psg.com>
>>> *Sent:* Friday, September 8, 2023 5:25 PM
>>> *To:* John Gilmore <gnu@toad.com>
>>> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org>
>>> *Subject:* Re: Guest Column: Kentik's Doug Madory, Last Call for
>>> Upcoming ISOC Course + More
>>>
>>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take
>>> care when clicking links or opening attachments.
>>>
>>>
>>> > It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just
>>> > need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their
>>> > "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling
>>> > the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailchimp.com%2Fhelp%2Fenable-and-view-click-tracking%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C4ac3a26bb5c4481c087908dbb0cbc6d7%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638298161499653329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Pw6uDgHDzT%2BavOz1jYAbG4VzTyP0en0oiuBq0PmTtVI%3D&reserved=0
>>> <https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/>
>>> >
>>> > "Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the
>>> > box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to
>>> > redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against
>>> > malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking,
>>> > Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account
>>> > activity thresholds are met."
>>> >
>>> > Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that
>>> > MailChimp inserts by default, too:
>>> >
>>> >
>>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmailchimp.com%2Fhelp%2Fabout-open-tracking%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cryan%40rkhtech.org%7C4ac3a26bb5c4481c087908dbb0cbc6d7%7C81c24bb4f9ec4739ba4d25c42594d996%7C0%7C0%7C638298161499653329%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=iqkTsuhDFD3poxVltrN4x%2FWY6eXpbIivWxf4VAWcXKA%3D&reserved=0
>>> <https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/>
>>>
>>>
>>> as usual, the problem is not technical. there is no need for mailchump
>>> at all.
>>>
>>> nanog management has made a very intentional decision to sell my
>>> privacy. nanog has come a long way, not all of it good.
>>>
>>> randy
>>>
>>
>

Inline

On Sat, Sep 9, 2023 at 09:51 Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org> wrote:

> Martin and Tom,
>
> How is it a private marketing initiative exactly if the links go to
> stories on NANOG's website?
>

This seems deliberately obtuse. It is a private marketing initiative
exactly if the links go to private marketing stories on NANOG's website.

Are you saying the very org that brings us together, is not allowed to spur
> discussion based on newsletter content and cannot provide us with updates
> and/or reminders about various things?
>

More deliberate and fairly unhelpful tongue in cheekery. A link to The
NANOG Mailing List Usage Guidelines was cited. That was helpful and
authoritative. If the marketing arm of NANOG wishes to change the
Guidelines, that will presumably take more formalities than some snarky
remarks.

>
> Y'all have been making a mountain out of a molehill.
>

Last I looked, NANOG members have been making mountains out of any handy
materials (or none at all) for several decades now. Folksy condescension is
no more welcome or constructive than it has ever been.

And FTR, Tom and Marty make most sense to me in this thread. So far.

Springer


> Ryan
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc>
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 9, 2023 9:30:13 AM
> *To:* Martin Hannigan <hannigan@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Ryan Hamel <ryan@rkhtech.org>; nanog@nanog.org <nanog@nanog.org>
>
> *Subject:* Re: Guest Column: Kentik's Doug Madory, Last Call for Upcoming
> ISOC Course + More
>
> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take care
> when clicking links or opening attachments.
>
> What network does Nanog-news operate?
>>
>> Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its
>> NANOG marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement).
>>
>
> This is the right comment.
>
> The NANOG Mailing List Usage Guidelines (
> https://www.nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/ ) are fairly clear
> about this.
>
> Posts to NANOG’s Mailing List should be focused on operational and
>> technical content only, as described by the NANOG Bylaws.
>> Using the NANOG Mailing List as a source for private marketing
>> initiatives, or product marketing of any kind, is prohibited.
>
>
> Sending this type of message to nanog@ is not appropriate, by our own
> rules. This issue will be raised at the next members meeting.
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2023 at 9:39?PM Martin Hannigan <hannigan@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> What network does Nanog-news operate?
>>
>> Marketing email doesn’t belong on an operational list. Even if its
>> NANOG marketing itself. (Ack Kentik non involvement).
>>
>> Warm regards,
>>
>> -M<
>>
>>
>

One could argue that much of this behavior was the result of most of
the internet preferring free, or nearly free, to paying for services
so all this jiggery-pokery evolved to try to make money to pay for
services and generate profits.

I suppose in theory one could argue they could have charged and
evolved all this but it's reasonable to wonder if that would have
happened, or at such scale. Or perhaps paying customers would have had
sufficient leverage to demand it not be done.

Much of the net arises from the question: Ok, no one will actually
want to pay for this (or not enough to make it worth our while to
implement), so what's the business model? I know, eyeballs, collect
and sell their information, track them mercilessly, stuff it with ads,
etc.

And here we are.

--
-Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com
Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD
The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*

Randy,

We do not buy, sell or share any data or personal information on anyone. MailChimp is only used to get data points on the effectiveness of our newsletter. We also try to get data on the effectiveness of our social media efforts. We do not look at individual behavior, only group anonymous data. If you wish to by-pass the "trackers," just go to https://nanog.org/stories/ Anything that we send out in our newsletter or social media and be found there.


Edward McNair
Executive Director

emcnair@nanog.org

> On Sep 8, 2023, at 17:25, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>
>> It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just
>> need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their
>> "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling
>> the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:
>>
>> https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/
>>
>> "Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the
>> box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to
>> redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against
>> malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking,
>> Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account
>> activity thresholds are met."
>>
>> Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that
>> MailChimp inserts by default, too:
>>
>> https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/
>
> as usual, the problem is not technical. there is no need for mailchump
> at all.
>
> nanog management has made a very intentional decision to sell my
> privacy. nanog has come a long way, not all of it good.
>
> randy

Dear Edward

I am Interested to know how you are avoiding sharing data with MailChimp? To use MailChimp you are sharing email addresses. Adding any features that give you feedback introduces spyware and it's this spyware that gives you your data points after it has shared those data points with MailChimp. Do you sincerely believe there isn't any sharing happening?

Regards

Eric Parsonage.

On 13 September 2023 12:56:37 pm ACST, Edward McNair <emcnair@nanog.org> wrote:
>Randy,
>
>We do not buy, sell or share any data or personal information on anyone. MailChimp is only used to get data points on the effectiveness of our newsletter. We also try to get data on the effectiveness of our social media efforts. We do not look at individual behavior, only group anonymous data. If you wish to by-pass the "trackers," just go to https://nanog.org/stories/ Anything that we send out in our newsletter or social media and be found there.
>
>
>Edward McNair
>Executive Director
>
>emcnair@nanog.org
>
>> On Sep 8, 2023, at 17:25, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>>
>>> It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just
>>> need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their
>>> "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling
>>> the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:
>>>
>>> https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/
>>>
>>> "Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the
>>> box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to
>>> redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against
>>> malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking,
>>> Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account
>>> activity thresholds are met."
>>>
>>> Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that
>>> MailChimp inserts by default, too:
>>>
>>> https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/
>>
>> as usual, the problem is not technical. there is no need for mailchump
>> at all.
>>
>> nanog management has made a very intentional decision to sell my
>> privacy. nanog has come a long way, not all of it good.
>>
>> randy
>

Edward-

Tracker issues aside, as I called out earlier in the thread, by our own
rules the newsletters should not be sent to this list in the first place.

Citing NANOG Mailing List Usage Guidelines (
https://www.nanog.org/resources/usage-guidelines/ ) :

Posts to NANOG’s Mailing List should be focused on operational and
> technical content only, as described by the NANOG Bylaws.
> Using the NANOG Mailing List as a source for private marketing
> initiatives, or product marketing of any kind, is prohibited.




On Tue, Sep 12, 2023 at 11:28?PM Edward McNair <emcnair@nanog.org> wrote:

> Randy,
>
> We do not buy, sell or share any data or personal information on anyone.
> MailChimp is only used to get data points on the effectiveness of our
> newsletter. We also try to get data on the effectiveness of our social
> media efforts. We do not look at individual behavior, only group anonymous
> data. If you wish to by-pass the "trackers," just go to
> https://nanog.org/stories/ Anything that we send out in our newsletter or
> social media and be found there.
>
>
> *Edward McNair*
> Executive Director
>
> emcnair@nanog.org
>
> On Sep 8, 2023, at 17:25, Randy Bush <randy@psg.com> wrote:
>
> It is totally possible to turn off the spyware in MailChimp. You just
> need to buy an actual commercial account rather than using their
> "free" service. To save $13 or $20 per month, you are instead selling
> the privacy of every recipient of your emails. See:
>
> https://mailchimp.com/help/enable-and-view-click-tracking/
>
> "Check the Track clicks box to enable click tracking, or uncheck the
> box to disable click tracking. ... Mailchimp will continue to
> redirect URLs for users with free account plans to protect against
> malicious links. ... When a paid user turns off click tracking,
> Mailchimp will continue to redirect their URLs until certain account
> activity thresholds are met."
>
> Don't forget to turn off the spyware 1x1 pixel "web bugs" that
> MailChimp inserts by default, too:
>
> https://mailchimp.com/help/about-open-tracking/
>
>
> as usual, the problem is not technical. there is no need for mailchump
> at all.
>
> nanog management has made a very intentional decision to sell my
> privacy. nanog has come a long way, not all of it good.
>
> randy
>
>
>