On Monday, Jun 9, 2003, Bruce Markey wrote:
> Jarod C. Wilson wrote:
> ...
>> And I assure you that my notes are far better for someone attempting
>> to
>> install MythTV under Red Hat Linux 9 with a WinTV PVR-250 than the
>> documentation on the MythTV web site, even if they aren't
>> "authoritative."
>
> Which then suggests to me that you should submit updates
> and suggestions for the HOWTO so that everyone who installs
> MythTV has access to this information.
Working on that right now. There are 3 of us who are starting to
conspire to merge RHL9-specific info into the official docs. We've been
in touch w/Robert about it.
>> Have you actually read all of both my docs and all of the official
>> docs?
>
> I have proof read every single word of the HOWTO on more than
> one occasion. I am not going to read your notes or the dozen
> or so other 'how *I* did it' pages that have been written before.
I just don't think you should slam someone else's work if you haven't
actually seen it. That's all. I'm not trying to compete, I'm trying to
help, and the official docs had nothing about RHL9. Again, I'm
currently working on getting some of that info merged into the official
docs.
> did you know that others have done this?
No, because there is no such mention of that fact on the official site.
It wouldn't actually be a bad thing to reference, if you ask me...
> did you find any of this pages?
Not until it was too late. I was already knee-deep in creating my own.
> did they do you any good whatsoever?
Yes.
> I will, however, see any and all information you submit to the HOWTO.
Well, I guess you'll be seeing some of my work shortly then. :)
> It is not a matter of competing to see if you can out do the
> HOWTO. It is a question of whether you are going to contribute
> to the open source project that you are taking advantage of,
> or are you simply interested in drawing attention to yourself.
I'm not competing. Quite a few people have been thankful of 3rd-party
HOWTOs, and I think their creation isn't meant to be competition, it is
mean to be an aid for others out there. I was trying to contribute to
an open-source project, not realizing that if I wrote something not
sanctioned by the official site, I'd be subject to accusations of
trying to compete. This whole spat has probably drawn more attention
(to you, also :) than my creation of that guide... Vaguely reminiscent
of Torvalds v. Tanenbaum, though I doubt either of us is anywhere near
as intelligent as those two (okay, so that comparison is a far stretch
:).
>> In the official docs, there is no mention of RHL9 whatsoever, and
>> only a
>> little bit on installing ivtv.
>
> Because you haven't contributed it thus far. The documentation
> is not written in stone and it did not descend from the heavens.
> Now is the time to rectify this.
Because I haven't? Because nobody has. I started writing my piece
because there wasn't anything there. I couldn't contribute it before I
created it...
>> Guess what? I've already sent an email to Robert, requesting that at
>> least part of my info be incorporated, because I feel the official
>> docs
>> are VERY lacking in several areas, particularly with respect to RHL9
>> and
>> the PVR-250.
>
> This is a step in the right direction. Thank you.
Baby steps, but we're getting there. Moral of the story: don't slam
someone before you know the whole story. You could have approached this
in a less-hostile manner (I probably could have also). I'd sent an
email off to Robert before you even composed your message. I'm
relatively new to the MythTV scene, and hardly had a chance to submit
anything before my work was being degraded. (Well, actually most people
voiced their support, and were thankful for it).
>> Didn't know until looking at that again that you (Bruce) are an
>> "official" documenter.
>
> This was the first section I had ever sent in. I assumed that
> Robert chose to put the name of the new guy on it so that he
> wouldn't take the heat for inaccuracies.
LOL. :)
> I've since contributed "What capture resolution should I
> use?", "MythTV GUI and X Display Sizes", "I'd like to save
> or restore my database", "Removing unwanted channels", and
> half of "Advanced Backend Configurations" and several little
> additions and fixes all with Robert's editorial help. All are
> subject to input from others and all available to everyone
> who uses MythTV.
Good deal. I understand a bit more why you'd take offense to someone
using something other than the official docs... :)
> I also try to do lots of testing to seek out potential
> problems and contribute code to fix features I need to use
> and add features I'd like to have. I've been interested in
> the possibilities of digital recording and convergence for
> several years. I'd been involved with other projects in
> the past. When I found MythTV, I made a conscious decision
> that I wanted to contribute to help it become the kind of
> system I've always wanted.
That's where I'm heading (or trying). I only heard of MythTV a bit ago,
and attempted my first install just last weekend. I created my doc,
because there were so many areas in the official docs that just didn't
cover what I actually had to do to make everything work under RHL9. It
was my intention to get it in the official docs from the beginning, and
I initially refrained from posting anything, until numerous users
requested that I share my experiences when I mentioned to the list what
I was working on.
> I guess I could have set up my own web site, maintained my
> own FAQ (NO, an AIW will NOT work ;-), and kept my own patches
> to do the things I wanted. But would this have done anybody
> any good? Would anyone other than me care if the hit count
> went up on my web site if people came to see my docs? No.
My doc is on the PVRHW site, which another MythTV user graciously
offered to host, along with several other PVR-related documents. I have
no idea about the hit count, nor do I care. The information isn't doing
me any actual good; I already have my system up and working. I wanted
to get it out there to help others. I have no gain from updating it,
fixing it, making sure it is correct, etc., but I am just the same.
> So, I'm asking you again, are you going to contribute to the
> project that you have the privilege of using?
I think this was already answered, even before you asked it. I'm
working on getting some of my info incorporated in the official docs.
> Or, are you
> going to draw attention to yourself for the work that others
> have done to satisfy your own vanity?
It has nothing to do with vanity. It has to do with helping people get
MythTV up and running on an RHL9 system with a MythTV PVR-250.
> If you continue on your course, I have to assume the latter.
Continue what course? The course where I'd already contacted Robert? :)
> However, I'd prefer that you contribute.
Good. I'm trying.
> If it really is about attention, consider this.
I'm not sure why you think it might be.
> Wouldn't you gain more of a sense
> of notoriety if you were the maintainer of the RH9 install
> docs? If your name was on tech notes that appeared in the
> documentation that everyone sees?
Well, it isn't about attention, and I don't care if my name is in the
tech notes or not. I suppose that it is something that might be
worthwhile to mention on a resume, though. :) In any case, I'm all for
being the maintainer of the RHL9 install docs.
> I assure you :) that you will be better off if you reconsider
> what you are doing
I don't think there is anything to reconsider.
> and why
Just trying to help.
> and decide to contribute for the
> sake of all MythTV users rather than fragmenting information
> and confusing new users for the sake of your own agenda.
I apologize for the fact you felt I came off like I was trying to make
a name for myself; I'm not. I'm just trying to help. I have no agenda.
I'm intending to contribute all the relevant RHL9 information I can to
the official docs.
However, that said, I still think there is a place for a hardware- and
OS-specific howto guide (even if it is not officially sanctioned).
I should have some submissions to Robert tonight. I'm currently nuking
my system to start over from scratch, so I can be certain I don't
pollute the official docs with misinformation. In the immortal words of
Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" :)
-jcw
> Jarod C. Wilson wrote:
> ...
>> And I assure you that my notes are far better for someone attempting
>> to
>> install MythTV under Red Hat Linux 9 with a WinTV PVR-250 than the
>> documentation on the MythTV web site, even if they aren't
>> "authoritative."
>
> Which then suggests to me that you should submit updates
> and suggestions for the HOWTO so that everyone who installs
> MythTV has access to this information.
Working on that right now. There are 3 of us who are starting to
conspire to merge RHL9-specific info into the official docs. We've been
in touch w/Robert about it.
>> Have you actually read all of both my docs and all of the official
>> docs?
>
> I have proof read every single word of the HOWTO on more than
> one occasion. I am not going to read your notes or the dozen
> or so other 'how *I* did it' pages that have been written before.
I just don't think you should slam someone else's work if you haven't
actually seen it. That's all. I'm not trying to compete, I'm trying to
help, and the official docs had nothing about RHL9. Again, I'm
currently working on getting some of that info merged into the official
docs.
> did you know that others have done this?
No, because there is no such mention of that fact on the official site.
It wouldn't actually be a bad thing to reference, if you ask me...
> did you find any of this pages?
Not until it was too late. I was already knee-deep in creating my own.
> did they do you any good whatsoever?
Yes.
> I will, however, see any and all information you submit to the HOWTO.
Well, I guess you'll be seeing some of my work shortly then. :)
> It is not a matter of competing to see if you can out do the
> HOWTO. It is a question of whether you are going to contribute
> to the open source project that you are taking advantage of,
> or are you simply interested in drawing attention to yourself.
I'm not competing. Quite a few people have been thankful of 3rd-party
HOWTOs, and I think their creation isn't meant to be competition, it is
mean to be an aid for others out there. I was trying to contribute to
an open-source project, not realizing that if I wrote something not
sanctioned by the official site, I'd be subject to accusations of
trying to compete. This whole spat has probably drawn more attention
(to you, also :) than my creation of that guide... Vaguely reminiscent
of Torvalds v. Tanenbaum, though I doubt either of us is anywhere near
as intelligent as those two (okay, so that comparison is a far stretch
:).
>> In the official docs, there is no mention of RHL9 whatsoever, and
>> only a
>> little bit on installing ivtv.
>
> Because you haven't contributed it thus far. The documentation
> is not written in stone and it did not descend from the heavens.
> Now is the time to rectify this.
Because I haven't? Because nobody has. I started writing my piece
because there wasn't anything there. I couldn't contribute it before I
created it...
>> Guess what? I've already sent an email to Robert, requesting that at
>> least part of my info be incorporated, because I feel the official
>> docs
>> are VERY lacking in several areas, particularly with respect to RHL9
>> and
>> the PVR-250.
>
> This is a step in the right direction. Thank you.
Baby steps, but we're getting there. Moral of the story: don't slam
someone before you know the whole story. You could have approached this
in a less-hostile manner (I probably could have also). I'd sent an
email off to Robert before you even composed your message. I'm
relatively new to the MythTV scene, and hardly had a chance to submit
anything before my work was being degraded. (Well, actually most people
voiced their support, and were thankful for it).
>> Didn't know until looking at that again that you (Bruce) are an
>> "official" documenter.
>
> This was the first section I had ever sent in. I assumed that
> Robert chose to put the name of the new guy on it so that he
> wouldn't take the heat for inaccuracies.
LOL. :)
> I've since contributed "What capture resolution should I
> use?", "MythTV GUI and X Display Sizes", "I'd like to save
> or restore my database", "Removing unwanted channels", and
> half of "Advanced Backend Configurations" and several little
> additions and fixes all with Robert's editorial help. All are
> subject to input from others and all available to everyone
> who uses MythTV.
Good deal. I understand a bit more why you'd take offense to someone
using something other than the official docs... :)
> I also try to do lots of testing to seek out potential
> problems and contribute code to fix features I need to use
> and add features I'd like to have. I've been interested in
> the possibilities of digital recording and convergence for
> several years. I'd been involved with other projects in
> the past. When I found MythTV, I made a conscious decision
> that I wanted to contribute to help it become the kind of
> system I've always wanted.
That's where I'm heading (or trying). I only heard of MythTV a bit ago,
and attempted my first install just last weekend. I created my doc,
because there were so many areas in the official docs that just didn't
cover what I actually had to do to make everything work under RHL9. It
was my intention to get it in the official docs from the beginning, and
I initially refrained from posting anything, until numerous users
requested that I share my experiences when I mentioned to the list what
I was working on.
> I guess I could have set up my own web site, maintained my
> own FAQ (NO, an AIW will NOT work ;-), and kept my own patches
> to do the things I wanted. But would this have done anybody
> any good? Would anyone other than me care if the hit count
> went up on my web site if people came to see my docs? No.
My doc is on the PVRHW site, which another MythTV user graciously
offered to host, along with several other PVR-related documents. I have
no idea about the hit count, nor do I care. The information isn't doing
me any actual good; I already have my system up and working. I wanted
to get it out there to help others. I have no gain from updating it,
fixing it, making sure it is correct, etc., but I am just the same.
> So, I'm asking you again, are you going to contribute to the
> project that you have the privilege of using?
I think this was already answered, even before you asked it. I'm
working on getting some of my info incorporated in the official docs.
> Or, are you
> going to draw attention to yourself for the work that others
> have done to satisfy your own vanity?
It has nothing to do with vanity. It has to do with helping people get
MythTV up and running on an RHL9 system with a MythTV PVR-250.
> If you continue on your course, I have to assume the latter.
Continue what course? The course where I'd already contacted Robert? :)
> However, I'd prefer that you contribute.
Good. I'm trying.
> If it really is about attention, consider this.
I'm not sure why you think it might be.
> Wouldn't you gain more of a sense
> of notoriety if you were the maintainer of the RH9 install
> docs? If your name was on tech notes that appeared in the
> documentation that everyone sees?
Well, it isn't about attention, and I don't care if my name is in the
tech notes or not. I suppose that it is something that might be
worthwhile to mention on a resume, though. :) In any case, I'm all for
being the maintainer of the RHL9 install docs.
> I assure you :) that you will be better off if you reconsider
> what you are doing
I don't think there is anything to reconsider.
> and why
Just trying to help.
> and decide to contribute for the
> sake of all MythTV users rather than fragmenting information
> and confusing new users for the sake of your own agenda.
I apologize for the fact you felt I came off like I was trying to make
a name for myself; I'm not. I'm just trying to help. I have no agenda.
I'm intending to contribute all the relevant RHL9 information I can to
the official docs.
However, that said, I still think there is a place for a hardware- and
OS-specific howto guide (even if it is not officially sanctioned).
I should have some submissions to Robert tonight. I'm currently nuking
my system to start over from scratch, so I can be certain I don't
pollute the official docs with misinformation. In the immortal words of
Rodney King, "Can't we all just get along?" :)
-jcw