Mailing List Archive

Sky HDTV to be DRM'd?
Read this in the paper this morning:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3697268a28,00.html

Hi-tech TVs may not get the picture
12 June 2006
By ANNA CHALMERS

Television devotees who have spent thousands on new "high-definition" sets may not be able to access the technology when it arrives.

Sky has warned government officials, retailers and electronics manufacturers that most TV sets sold in New Zealand are not capable of screening high-definition pictures, which it plans to introduce next year.

"We believe that there are large numbers of consumers who have purchased a new television, have been assured by the retailer that the device is HD (high definition) capable, but when HDTV launches will be unable to view Sky programmes and other broadcasters' product," the company said.

Sky and TVNZ, which plans to launch a digital service, have met manufacturers – including Sony, Panasonic, Philips and LG – and the Consumer Electronics Association to tackle the issue.

Though many consumers have been told new sets are HDTV-ready, they will not work without a key component – an anti-pirating device. The internal hardware protects programme right-holders from unauthorised showing or copying and must be in place before shows can screen. Consumer Affairs Minister Judith Tizard has met Sky bosses about the issue and the ministry is investigating.

Consumer Electronics Association executive officer Garth Wyllie said representatives agreed action was needed.

The association planned to spearhead an update of six-year-old standards to ensure future televisions sold as "HDTV-ready" had the anti-piracy component.

Mr Wyllie could not say how many models were affected, but said cheaper brands would be more susceptible. The sets might still be compatible with the digital services offered by TVNZ and TV3.

He said a consumer education programme that could include a "tick box" showing which TVs were HDTV compliant was being considered.

It was likely components could be added to existing sets to make them HDTV-ready. "The question is whether the TV will work with it."

It was unclear whether consumers who believed they had purchased HDTV-ready sets that were not compatible had any comeback.

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Re: Sky HDTV to be DRM'd? [ In reply to ]
At 07:27 a.m. 12/06/2006, you wrote:
>Mr Wyllie could not say how many models were affected, but said cheaper
>brands would be more susceptible. The sets might still be compatible with
>the digital services offered by TVNZ and TV3.

About the only channel I want from Sky is Prime. I'm holding off
constructing my htpc until TV3 is FTA over DVB-S, so I can populate the
htpc with DVB-S cards and one analog card for the Skybox, set permanently
to Prime or something.

They're going to be pushing a rock uphill if they think that people are
going to replace their huge-screen TV's just because Sky says they should.
The new set top boxes should have composite, S-vid out on the back, right?

Anyone know if there is a DeCSS-alike for this HDTV encryption thing?

--
Alan Podjursky ICQ 24423014
"Yay, evil evil! Happy torture!" -- Gwyneth
"When in doubt, use brute force." -- Ken Thompson
http://www.fanfiction.net/~mercva


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RE: Sky HDTV to be DRM'd? [ In reply to ]
>> Mr Wyllie could not say how many models were affected, but said
>> cheaper brands would be more susceptible. The sets might still be
>> compatible with the digital services offered by TVNZ and TV3.
>
> About the only channel I want from Sky is Prime. I'm holding off
> constructing my htpc until TV3 is FTA over DVB-S, so I can populate
> the htpc with DVB-S cards and one analog card for the Skybox, set
> permanently to Prime or something.

I was going to mention something about this, this morning; but then realised
that Sky have to have encryption on their stuff anyway, so as long as they
give me a set top box, I don't really mind.

What I do want, however, is to be sure the FTA stuff will be available to
all (especially with DVB-S cards in PCs). It would be nice if Sky could
provide a card in a PC (with a smartcard inserted) could decrypt, but it's
not anywhere near as important as simple FTA.

Craig




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Re: Sky HDTV to be DRM'd? [ In reply to ]
On Mon, 2006-06-12 at 12:29 +1200, AlanP wrote:

> They're going to be pushing a rock uphill if they think that people are
> going to replace their huge-screen TV's just because Sky says they should.
> The new set top boxes should have composite, S-vid out on the back, right?

What they're talking about is that their HD-capable set top boxes will
only spit out HD using HDCP. And yes it's true that a huge percentage of
the HD sets out there don't do HDCP at all. At the moment, no-one has
actually forced HDCP hard on the consumer, HD-DVD content providers
backed off (it's called Image Constraint Token in HD-DVD parlance, and
the major producers have all said they won't use it for now), and it's
likely they'll continue to if they think they'll have serious sales
problems with it.

This is NOT about any over-the-air encryption, that will continue to be
NDS VideoGuard and it won't change with HD. You'll continue to need
Sky's specific closed set-top box to see their content.

--
David Zanetti <david.zanetti@catalyst.net.nz>
Team Leader, Systems Administration
Catalyst IT Limited
+64-4-8032233 +64-21-402260
RE: Sky HDTV to be DRM'd? [ In reply to ]
>What they're talking about is that their HD-capable set top boxes will only
spit out HD using HDCP.

Just so I can get my head around this:
Sky will be bringing out new decoders to support their HD service?
The new decoders will output HD using the HDCP protocol, so only TV's that
support HDCP will be able to play the content in HD?
I'm guessing there are no HD cards that support mythtv that also support
HDCP (or a hack to get around it)?

So in short what you are saying is the only way you are going to be getting
HD from sky on a pvr in NZ is if you use their PVR or we find a hack to make
the sky decoder think that the myth box is a HDCP compliant tv (looks like
this is possible judging from this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCP_

If there were a way of tricking the sky box into thinking myth was an HDCP
device, I'm guessing you therefore would not need an HDCP compliant TV.

Regards
Toby


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RE: Sky HDTV to be DRM'd? [ In reply to ]
On Mon, 2006-06-12 at 14:53 +1200, Toby Mills wrote:
> >What they're talking about is that their HD-capable set top boxes will only
> spit out HD using HDCP.
>
> Just so I can get my head around this:
> Sky will be bringing out new decoders to support their HD service?

Yes, nothing they currently have (mySky included) does HD. Will require
new set-top boxes.

> The new decoders will output HD using the HDCP protocol, so only TV's that
> support HDCP will be able to play the content in HD?

HDCP is purely used to protect the wire-level, pretty much. Only TVs
that support HDCP on their digital inputs will be able to display HD
content from the Sky box.

Downconverted from HD to SD will probably be allowed on non-HDCP
connections, but it's anyone's guess if that just means
Comp/SVideo/Component or HDMI/DVI lacking HDCP support.

> I'm guessing there are no HD cards that support mythtv that also support
> HDCP (or a hack to get around it)?

There are no HD capture cards I know of that support HDCP - it kinda
violates the whole point of HDCP so I wouldn't expect any.

> So in short what you are saying is the only way you are going to be getting
> HD from sky on a pvr in NZ is if you use their PVR or we find a hack to make
> the sky decoder think that the myth box is a HDCP compliant tv (looks like
> this is possible judging from this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCP_

I would expect Sky will come out with a new PVR capable of HD, the
existing ones have no outputs capable of HD. That's one PVR option.

I would not expect anyone to ship a card any time soon that _captures_
HDCP content. Getting a card that will originate HDCP stuff is another
matter, newer video cards will support that.

I'm sure there is professional kit to do this, but I doubt that's a
serious consideration for most people.

--
David Zanetti <david.zanetti@catalyst.net.nz>
Team Leader, Systems Administration
Catalyst IT Limited
+64-4-8032233 +64-21-402260
Re: Sky HDTV to be DRM'd? [ In reply to ]
Looks like there's already a device to "hack" HDCP - the Spatz-Tech
DVIMAGIC. It's sold as a DVI amplifier or 2 way splitter but apparently
it authenticates properly with set top boxes and decrypts the HDCP
stream, spitting out good ol' DVI.

Besides, even if the DVIMAGIC is blacklisted, the key exchange is only
56 bit and should be crackable.

So, once again, even before the problem comes to a head, someone's come
up with a solution :)

Sam.

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Re: Sky HDTV to be DRM'd? [ In reply to ]
On Mon, 12 Jun 2006 15:26:11 +1200
David Zanetti wrote:

> On Mon, 2006-06-12 at 14:53 +1200, Toby Mills wrote:
> > >What they're talking about is that their HD-capable set top boxes will only
> > spit out HD using HDCP.
> >
> > Just so I can get my head around this:
> > Sky will be bringing out new decoders to support their HD service?
>
> Yes, nothing they currently have (mySky included) does HD. Will require
> new set-top boxes.
>
> > The new decoders will output HD using the HDCP protocol, so only TV's that
> > support HDCP will be able to play the content in HD?
>
> HDCP is purely used to protect the wire-level, pretty much. Only TVs
> that support HDCP on their digital inputs will be able to display HD
> content from the Sky box.
>
> Downconverted from HD to SD will probably be allowed on non-HDCP
> connections, but it's anyone's guess if that just means
> Comp/SVideo/Component or HDMI/DVI lacking HDCP support.
>
> > I'm guessing there are no HD cards that support mythtv that also support
> > HDCP (or a hack to get around it)?
>
> There are no HD capture cards I know of that support HDCP - it kinda
> violates the whole point of HDCP so I wouldn't expect any.
>
> > So in short what you are saying is the only way you are going to be getting
> > HD from sky on a pvr in NZ is if you use their PVR or we find a hack to make
> > the sky decoder think that the myth box is a HDCP compliant tv (looks like
> > this is possible judging from this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCP_
>
> I would expect Sky will come out with a new PVR capable of HD, the
> existing ones have no outputs capable of HD. That's one PVR option.
>
> I would not expect anyone to ship a card any time soon that _captures_
> HDCP content. Getting a card that will originate HDCP stuff is another
> matter, newer video cards will support that.
>
> I'm sure there is professional kit to do this, but I doubt that's a
> serious consideration for most people.

My difficulty with all of this is that Sky cannot even tell me what the
issue is:

Me: Hello there has been publicity lately about making sure that if you
buy a High Definition TV that you should make sure it will be compatible
with Sky's HDTV offerings in the future. Can you tell me what I need to
ensure is included in a HD TV if I buy one?

Sky Girl: I am sorry Sky does not offer any HD content as yet.

Me: Yes I know that, I am referring to recent newspaper publicity to the
effect that Sky is warning consumers to bne careful about what they buy
ecause some models of HDTV may not in fact be able to get Sky's HD
content. I am trying to make sure that if I buy an HD TV it will be
compatible

SG: Sky will probably be offering HD on some channels in 18 months to 24
months, it is too early to say

Me: So you are warning people about buying incompaitible systems, but
you cannot tell me what is compaitble

SG: Sky has contacted the Consumer Electronics Association to warn that
there might be incompatibilities and that is all I can tell you.

Me: Well I am in the market for a TV and you cannot even tell me what I
need to buy to be compatible with your offerings. Can I speak to the
manager please?

SG: Yes I will put you through

long pause

phone goes clickety click disconnected tone.

Bahhhhh, I might was well by a 480 line plasma!



--
Nick Rout <nick@rout.co.nz>


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Re: Sky HDTV to be DRM'd? [ In reply to ]
On 6/14/06, Nick Rout <nick@rout.co.nz> wrote:
> Bahhhhh, I might was well by a 480 line plasma!

That's what I did about 8 months ago. I bought a Hyundai 480 line 42"
plasma for $3K (lately I've seen "no-name" brands as low as $2300). I
figured that there wasn't much point in buying high end at the time
given the uncertainty over the next generation DVD formats and the
lack of available HD content. I also decided that the improved quality
of the higher spec displays wasn't worth the extra money. My only
regret is that I can't drive my plasma at it's "native" resolution,
but the picture looks fine anyway.

Steve

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