Mailing List Archive

"G.W. Haywood" wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> We've all read the SUPPORT document and most of the time the people
> who post know what is relevant and what isn't - and the people reading
> and replying know that too.
>
> There are however cases (particularly with inexperienced users) where
> a question doesn't contain anything like the information needed. This
> isn't new. It has been suggested that we shouldn't reply to these on
> the principle that if the information is not there then the guy hasn't
> read the stuff he should have read. I feel uncomfortable with that.
>

I feel uncomfortable with that as well.

I think mod_perl is hard enough as it is without creating a further
barrier by not helping new people learn it. If anyone can help new people
get into mod_perl, they will become the teachers of the future (or at
least some of them).

>
> The recent flurry of activity on the List set me to thinking that
> there could be a way around some of this.
>
> Suppose we create a simple form which contains a few fancy strings of
> characters which CaptainDomo or whatever its name is can search for.
>
> This form can contain the OS/library/compiler/Perl/Apache/mod_perl and
> everything else for your site(s). It can go as a GZipped attachment
> if necessary so you don't have to read it unless you want to. Your
> mail reader can snip it if you like.
>
> CaptainDomo can examine each incoming request for the form. If it's
> not there it can send an automated reply asking nicely for the missing
> information. It can also mail /usr/local/mod_perl/SUPPORT or whatever
> back to the enquirer. That will reduce noise on the List. When we
> change the form because we realize that something extra is needed on
> it (because of a change in the technology or something, or we just
> forgot to ask) then the reply can say please update the form.
>
> Everybody who knows the List well will either fill in the form (you
> Yanks will fill _out_ the form, I know:) or will put some clever
> string of text in the message which CaptainDomo accepts instead.
>
> Feasible, obviously. Comments?
>
> 73,
> Ged.

It seems a bit complex. I am not sure that we should introduce such a
barrier to newbie questions either... sometimes the way a questionnaire is
worded and the act of having to fill something like that out will reduce
the traffic to a list by virtue of turning someone off.

I think that it would be simple to have a mini-FAQ on using the list.
Perhaps a 1-pager web page (not long, not more than a 2 page printout)
whose URL is emailed to everyone who joins the list on some simple rules
of thumb about support questions.

Later,
Gunther

On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Gunther Birznieks wrote:
>
> It seems a bit complex. I am not sure that we should introduce such a
> barrier to newbie questions either... sometimes the way a questionnaire is
> worded and the act of having to fill something like that out will reduce
> the traffic to a list by virtue of turning someone off.
>
> I think that it would be simple to have a mini-FAQ on using the list.
> Perhaps a 1-pager web page (not long, not more than a 2 page printout)
> whose URL is emailed to everyone who joins the list on some simple rules
> of thumb about support questions.

It's there for almost a year already, may be adding more stuff will help.
Just try to re-subscribe and you will get this mini-FAQ page on
subscription.

The fact that probably few read it is another issue to solve.


_______________________________________________________________________
Stas Bekman mailto:sbekman@iname.com http://www.stason.org/stas
Perl,CGI,Apache,Linux,Web,Java,PC http://www.stason.org/stas/TULARC
perl.apache.org modperl.sourcegarden.org perlmonth.com perl.org
single o-> + single o-+ = singlesheaven http://www.singlesheaven.com

At 08:58 PM 02/26/00 +0000, G.W. Haywood wrote:
>There are however cases (particularly with inexperienced users) where
>a question doesn't contain anything like the information needed. This
>isn't new. It has been suggested that we shouldn't reply to these on
>the principle that if the information is not there then the guy hasn't
>read the stuff he should have read. I feel uncomfortable with that.

I don't see that as helping anyone's cause. If I knew exactly what to post
so someone could solve the problem, then most likely I'd know how to solve
the problem myself. Well, maybe not.

>This form can contain the OS/library/compiler/Perl/Apache/mod_perl and
>everything else for your site(s). It can go as a GZipped attachment
>if necessary so you don't have to read it unless you want to. Your
>mail reader can snip it if you like.

Do the T-shirt discussions need to have the sender's GZipped info attached?

Please, I'm on a slow modem (next paycheck I'll upgrade from this reliable,
but slow 1200 baud), so no attachments. I can trim at my ISP, sure, but
then what if I want to see someone's info?

I'd rather see first posts rejected with a message pointing to a FAQ, and
stating what's expected in posts. A friendly "RTFFAQ question #1 and
repost" is a fine response if more info is needed.

So, I've posted a few questions lately that have been unanswered. Is that
because they are lacking some information about my OS version? Too long?
Too boring? Too complicated? Subject's not sexy enough?


Bill Moseley
mailto:moseley@hank.org

Hi Bill,

Thanks for responding.

On Sat, 26 Feb 2000, Bill Moseley wrote:

> If I knew exactly what to post so someone could solve the problem,
> then most likely I'd know how to solve the problem myself.

Exactly what I said when somebody said to me that my first posts were
very big. And like you, I didn't know what was relevant and whatnot.
Like I said, none of this is new and I'm just trying to improve
efficiency because time is the one inextensible resource.

I didn't mean to imply that anyone should (or even could) know what
information was required in order to solve the problem, it's just that
even experienced people sometimes forget to say "we're using a
development version of the server that's alpha code at the moment".

If, say, somewhere in the post it said "perl 9.305_87-dev-alpha" then
that could perhaps save a lot of people going up the wrong gum-tree
trying to find a problem in the stable version that doesn't exist.
If it doesn't, well that's too bad but nothing's lost.

> Do the T-shirt discussions need to have the sender's GZipped info
> attached?

If something like my proposal is eventually implemented, then yes, or
else they'd have to contain my suggestion of a kind of `secret code'
which is recognized by the mail software. Properly implemented this
would reduce bandwidth consumption, so you could wait a bit longer
before upgrading that modem. But at 1200 I definitely wouldn't wait!

I don't think that the tee-shirts should be on the list at all, and I
said so on the list. But Stas tells me that the correct list is down
at the moment (advocacy) so we're all just having to put up with it.

> I'd rather see first posts rejected with a message pointing to a
> FAQ, and stating what's expected in posts.

Hey that was my idea! :)

No human is going to read the posts first, they go straight to the
List. So I'm just suggesting an automated way of doing exactly what
you just said. It doesn't have to be a complicated form with a lot of
characters in it. It doesn't have to be a form at all, really, just
something which is easily parsed by a small, dumb script.

> So, I've posted a few questions lately that have been unanswered.
> Is that because they are lacking some information about my OS
> version? Too long? Too boring? Too complicated? Subject's not
> sexy enough?

Everybody's incredibly busy and maybe it just wasn't your lucky day?
Nobody knows the answer and you're on your own?
Who knows?

The only post of yours that I haven't seen answered in some way was

[MOD_PERL] Segmentation Fault

on 25 February so I thought you were doing OK for replies. Granted
you said in that one that it was a repost. Granted also that you
provided a reasonable (and commendably succinct!) description of your
system. You asked for debugging tips, can I take it that you have
read the debugging section in Stas' Guide?

Can you let me see the other posts that were missed? I can't promise
to be able to help but I'd at least like to know how I've missed them.
I'm having to work quickly (50 mails a day sometimes, and that's on
the limit of what I can manage - I know a couple of people who talk of
hundreds but I couldn't possibly dealt with that) so I often miss
things. I screw up a lot too, and then someone else will put me
right, which is one of the great things about the List.

If nobody has an immediate brainwave then you shouldn't feel too bad
about it. I try to keep tabs on posts that don't get answers, and
after a week or two I try to mail the person to see if they got any
response. I do this mainly because my first three posts to the list
went unanswered for a month and I got pretty wound up about it. I
have never been able to apologize enough:( but I did get to the bottom
of it myself in the end, beating Ask BH by about 24 hours although he
only spent ten minutes on it one Saturday morning and, like I said, it
took me a month. (Sorry, Ask, if it was a bit more than ten minutes:)

There may have been private mail sent to the person with no feedback
on the list at all, so I may sometimes be wasting my time doing that.

That's one of the not-so-good features. Watch this space.

73,
Ged.