Mailing List Archive

Gerald: please update module to include patch for CGI.pm 3.38+
Hi Gerald,

Can you please issue an update of Embperl to include the patch required
to work with CGI.pm 3.38+ for multipart/form-data?

I am on a shared web host and the host refuses to do any modification on
the installed Embperl.pm, unless it is an officially released module.

Please help, otherwise years of web development will go up in smoke.

.......Hoenie

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Re: Gerald: please update module to include patch for CGI.pm 3.38+ [ In reply to ]
I've got a version that should work on github:

http://github.com/mstevens/embperl-fork

But it's in no way an official release.

2009/9/17 Hoenie Luk <airedale@hoenie.com>

> Hi Gerald,
>
> Can you please issue an update of Embperl to include the patch required to
> work with CGI.pm 3.38+ for multipart/form-data?
>
> I am on a shared web host and the host refuses to do any modification on
> the installed Embperl.pm, unless it is an officially released module.
>
> Please help, otherwise years of web development will go up in smoke.
>
> .......Hoenie
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail: embperl-unsubscribe@perl.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: embperl-help@perl.apache.org
>
>


--
Michael Stevens
Dianomi Ltd
18 Buckingham Gate
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Tel: 020 7802 5530
Fax: 020 7630 7356
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RE: Gerald: please update module to include patch for CGI.pm 3.38+ [ In reply to ]
Hi Michael,

Can you send me an diff of all your changes against the last version of Embperl?

Please send it to my private email, not to the list

Thanks

Gerald



> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Stevens [mailto:michael.stevens@dianomi.com]
> Sent: Thursday, September 17, 2009 11:06 AM
> To: Hoenie Luk
> Cc: embperl@perl.apache.org
> Subject: Re: Gerald: please update module to include patch
> for CGI.pm 3.38+
>
> I've got a version that should work on github:
>
> http://github.com/mstevens/embperl-fork
>
> But it's in no way an official release.
>
>
> 2009/9/17 Hoenie Luk <airedale@hoenie.com>
>
>
> Hi Gerald,
>
> Can you please issue an update of Embperl to include
> the patch required to work with CGI.pm 3.38+ for multipart/form-data?
>
> I am on a shared web host and the host refuses to do
> any modification on the installed Embperl.pm, unless it is an
> officially released module.
>
> Please help, otherwise years of web development will go
> up in smoke.
>
> .......Hoenie
>
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: embperl-unsubscribe@perl.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: embperl-help@perl.apache.org
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Michael Stevens
> Dianomi Ltd
> 18 Buckingham Gate
> London SW1E 6LB
>
> Tel: 020 7802 5530
> Fax: 020 7630 7356
> www.dianomi.com
>
> The information in this message and any attachment is
> intended for the addressee and is confidential and may be
> subject to legal privilege. Dianomi Ltd, Registered Office:
> One America Square, Crosswall, London. EC3N 2SG. Registered
> in England and Wales with Company Registration Number
> 4513809. VAT registration number: 809754988
>
>

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Re: Gerald: please update module to include patch for CGI.pm 3.38+ [ In reply to ]
2009/9/17 Michael Stevens <michael.stevens@dianomi.com>

> Gerald,
>
> I've attached my diff below. It's mainly from the previous mailing list
> post:
>
>
> Hoping to see a new release soon?
>

Thanks for the patch. I have now not so much workload anymore and hope to
get out a new version during the next weeks.

The main work is, that it not only have to work with the newest version of
Perl , mod_perl and Apache, but with a lot of older versions and
combinations of them

Gerald
Re: Gerald: please update module to include patch for CGI.pm 3.38+ [ In reply to ]
Hi Gerald,

For someone like me who is more of an enthusiast rather than expert (I
play and use a lot of trial and error) I find installing Embperl
really confusing.

Maybe it's just me, maybe I am missing the point. But for some reason
it can take me a few days of bashing around to get it all to work
properly (and even then I don't think it is!).

An example would be that there's a lot of virtual servers popping up
these days. I just purchased a virtual server with CentOS 5 with
Plesk 9 (64-bit). It took days to get Embperl working under mod_perl.
Can't even remember exactly why as it's all a blur now! All I
remember is that the server was all pre-installed with the very latest
versions of Apache and mod_perl. But I would get errors everywhere.
I would uninstall things, reinstall things. I would never be able to
find apache source. I just think that brute force got me there in the
end.

Now I have it working, I am finding memory management temperamental.
Mucking around with Max_Servers and so on would drive me insane. Too
low and the server would hang whilst requests would queue up, too high
and I'd run out of memory. Most virtual servers give you 1Mb to play
with (with 4mb burstable, whatever that means!).

Is there any master guru out there that could put together some sort
of manual for real-life scenarios?

I made a utility for Twitter that went viral for a week - my server
took 30,000 hits in a few hours. Of course, it crashed. I went away
and tried everything to get it working under this sort of load. Thing
is, the traffic slowed and I'll never know if my new setup with hold
up. Can I expect, say, 200 concurrent users on a Embperl website with
only 1Mb of Ram? If so, what's the best Apache configuration?

Sometimes I'd make one request and it'd be rapid. Then the next
request would hang.

I understand that I should have a good understanding on how everything
works from the ground up - but if I was that good, I would have made
my own Embperl!

Please don't take any of this the wrong way - I absolutely LOVE Embper
(I can't code anymore without it!). That's why I get so frustrated
when I can't get it all working right. I can see the potential - but
can never seem to find it.

Can't wait for any new versions....!

Chris Denman


2009/9/18 Richter, Gerald <richter@ecos.de>:
>
>
> 2009/9/17 Michael Stevens <michael.stevens@dianomi.com>
>>
>> Gerald,
>>
>> I've attached my diff below. It's mainly from the previous mailing list
>> post:
>>
>>
>> Hoping to see a new release soon?
>
> Thanks for the patch. I have now not so much workload anymore and hope to
> get out a new version during the next weeks.
>
> The main work is, that it not only have to work with the newest version of
> Perl , mod_perl and Apache, but with a lot of  older versions and
> combinations of them
>
> Gerald
>
>
>

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Re: Gerald: please update module to include patch for CGI.pm 3.38+ [ In reply to ]
Chris Denman wrote:
> I made a utility for Twitter that went viral for a week - my server
> took 30,000 hits in a few hours. Of course, it crashed. I went away
> and tried everything to get it working under this sort of load. Thing
> is, the traffic slowed and I'll never know if my new setup with hold
> up. Can I expect, say, 200 concurrent users on a Embperl website with
> only 1Mb of Ram? If so, what's the best Apache configuration?

Does every single request need to be handled by Embperl, or could you
perhaps cache some of the pages? I use a two level caching reverse proxy
Apache configuration on my server. There are basically two installations
of Apache - one with mod_proxy, which serves all static content (images
mostly). It passes all requests for dynamic content to the "backend"
Apache process (running on the same server) which has mod_perl and
embperl. The front end apache can be very lightweight, as it doesn't
have mod_perl etc it doesn't use much memory, and so you can have a
whole bunch of them running. And if you use mod_cache, then you can also
cache the results that come from the backend embperl server. So that
means that if you're careful about setting expiration times for your
embperl content, then you can substantially lighten the load, and still
be able to handle a whole bunch of concurrent users without breaking a
sweat.

You usually find that not every single "dynamic" page actually has to be
generated anew for every single request. For example, on my community
website, there are pages which are "what's new" indexes of content.
These are set to have a cache expiry of one minute. So if a whole bunch
of people hit that page, most of those requests will be served by the
front end, until that version expires (next minute). So the backend is
only hit for that page once per minute. It gets a bit more complicated
if you have users with cookies, but basically I only set 'no-cache' for
those parts of the site that are definitely needing Embperl per-request
(e.g. editing forms, user-specific areas etc).

Caching is how you handle scaling - most websites go down because they
handle everything with the dynamic engine, and then one day they get hit
by a bunch of people and "bang". Early on I had a couple of my articles
go to the front page of slashdot. As soon as I put in the caching
architecture, my server was able to handle slashdottings without
breaking a sweat. I'd get upward of 40,000 hits within a few hours, and
the server was just basically idling along, since most of the hits were
effectively being served as static content from cache - even though the
article was dynamically generated by embperl.

> Can't wait for any new versions....!

Me too - I'm so glad to see Gerald back on the list. I have based my
entire website development around Embperl (hundreds of thousands of
lines of code now, and going on for ten years of development). I was
afraid that Embperl was abandonware, since I'd seen the embperl list
traffic dwindle and questions go unanswered. I really hope to see
embperl rekindled. If/when my business takes off (of course it will, any
day now!) then I hope to be able to send some appreciation Gerald's way.

Neil
http://www.neilgunton.com/

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Re: Gerald: please update module to include patch for CGI.pm 3.38+ [ In reply to ]
Hi Chris,

I think Neil has done a good explaination what can be done, so that a site
scales better.

Regardings the installation issues. The Problem is, that because Embperl
work very close togehther with Apache and mod_perl, it needs to be compiled
with the same compiler settings as Apache and mod_perl. The point is that
not every distribution, has this information at the right place (or it is
not there at all). The Makefile.PL tries it's best to figure out which
options to use, but it does not work all the time.

The best would be, if we had a packages maintainers for the main
distrubtions (like Debian, SUSE, RedHat etc.) which knows about their
distribution (because I do not know all the specifica of all these
distributions)

Gerald


2009/9/18 Chris Denman <chrisjdenman@googlemail.com>

> Hi Gerald,
>
> For someone like me who is more of an enthusiast rather than expert (I
> play and use a lot of trial and error) I find installing Embperl
> really confusing.
>
> Maybe it's just me, maybe I am missing the point. But for some reason
> it can take me a few days of bashing around to get it all to work
> properly (and even then I don't think it is!).
>
> An example would be that there's a lot of virtual servers popping up
> these days. I just purchased a virtual server with CentOS 5 with
> Plesk 9 (64-bit). It took days to get Embperl working under mod_perl.
> Can't even remember exactly why as it's all a blur now! All I
> remember is that the server was all pre-installed with the very latest
> versions of Apache and mod_perl. But I would get errors everywhere.
> I would uninstall things, reinstall things. I would never be able to
> find apache source. I just think that brute force got me there in the
> end.
>
> Now I have it working, I am finding memory management temperamental.
> Mucking around with Max_Servers and so on would drive me insane. Too
> low and the server would hang whilst requests would queue up, too high
> and I'd run out of memory. Most virtual servers give you 1Mb to play
> with (with 4mb burstable, whatever that means!).
>
> Is there any master guru out there that could put together some sort
> of manual for real-life scenarios?
>
> I made a utility for Twitter that went viral for a week - my server
> took 30,000 hits in a few hours. Of course, it crashed. I went away
> and tried everything to get it working under this sort of load. Thing
> is, the traffic slowed and I'll never know if my new setup with hold
> up. Can I expect, say, 200 concurrent users on a Embperl website with
> only 1Mb of Ram? If so, what's the best Apache configuration?
>
> Sometimes I'd make one request and it'd be rapid. Then the next
> request would hang.
>
> I understand that I should have a good understanding on how everything
> works from the ground up - but if I was that good, I would have made
> my own Embperl!
>
> Please don't take any of this the wrong way - I absolutely LOVE Embper
> (I can't code anymore without it!). That's why I get so frustrated
> when I can't get it all working right. I can see the potential - but
> can never seem to find it.
>
> Can't wait for any new versions....!
>
> Chris Denman
>
>
> 2009/9/18 Richter, Gerald <richter@ecos.de>:
> >
> >
> > 2009/9/17 Michael Stevens <michael.stevens@dianomi.com>
> >>
> >> Gerald,
> >>
> >> I've attached my diff below. It's mainly from the previous mailing list
> >> post:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hoping to see a new release soon?
> >
> > Thanks for the patch. I have now not so much workload anymore and hope to
> > get out a new version during the next weeks.
> >
> > The main work is, that it not only have to work with the newest version
> of
> > Perl , mod_perl and Apache, but with a lot of older versions and
> > combinations of them
> >
> > Gerald
> >
> >
> >
>
Re: Gerald: please update module to include patch for CGI.pm 3.38+ [ In reply to ]
Hi Gerald,

Thanks for the advice.

What I may do is try to install again from scratch on Centos 5 and
show you my errors as I go. That is, of course if you are OK with
this! There seems to be a lot of virtual dedicated server companies
offering Centos 5 with Plesk so I am sure others would benefit.

Great you're back! Really looking forward to your latest offerings too.

Maybe the community could get together and get some sort of forum/site
going where we can all talk about our projects and problems? I am
happy to offer hosting for this.

Chris

2009/9/20 Richter, Gerald <gerald.richter@ecos.de>:
> Hi Chris,
>
> I think Neil has done a good explaination what can be done, so that a site
> scales better.
>
> Regardings the installation issues. The Problem is, that because Embperl
> work very close togehther with Apache and mod_perl, it needs to be compiled
> with the same compiler settings as Apache and mod_perl. The point is that
> not every distribution, has this information at the right place (or it is
> not there at all). The Makefile.PL tries it's best to figure out which
> options to use, but it does not work all the time.
>
> The best would be, if we had a packages maintainers for the main
> distrubtions (like Debian, SUSE, RedHat etc.) which knows about their
> distribution (because I do not know all the specifica of all these
> distributions)
>
> Gerald
>
>
> 2009/9/18 Chris Denman <chrisjdenman@googlemail.com>
>>
>> Hi Gerald,
>>
>> For someone like me who is more of an enthusiast rather than expert (I
>> play and use a lot of trial and error) I find installing Embperl
>> really confusing.
>>
>> Maybe it's just me, maybe I am missing the point.  But for some reason
>> it can take me a few days of bashing around to get it all to work
>> properly (and even then I don't think it is!).
>>
>> An example would be that there's a lot of virtual servers popping up
>> these days.  I just purchased a virtual server with CentOS 5 with
>> Plesk 9 (64-bit).  It took days to get Embperl working under mod_perl.
>>  Can't even remember exactly why as it's all a blur now!  All I
>> remember is that the server was all pre-installed with the very latest
>> versions of Apache and mod_perl.  But I would get errors everywhere.
>> I would uninstall things, reinstall things.  I would never be able to
>> find apache source.  I just think that brute force got me there in the
>> end.
>>
>> Now I have it working, I am finding memory management temperamental.
>> Mucking around with Max_Servers and so on would drive me insane.  Too
>> low and the server would hang whilst requests would queue up, too high
>> and I'd run out of memory.  Most virtual servers give you 1Mb to play
>> with (with 4mb burstable, whatever that means!).
>>
>> Is there any master guru out there that could put together some sort
>> of manual for real-life scenarios?
>>
>> I made a utility for Twitter that went viral for a week - my server
>> took 30,000 hits in a few hours.  Of course, it crashed.  I went away
>> and tried everything to get it working under this sort of load.  Thing
>> is, the traffic slowed and I'll never know if my new setup with hold
>> up.  Can I expect, say, 200 concurrent users on a Embperl website with
>> only 1Mb of Ram?  If so, what's the best Apache configuration?
>>
>> Sometimes I'd make one request and it'd be rapid.  Then the next
>> request would hang.
>>
>> I understand that I should have a good understanding on how everything
>> works from the ground up - but if I was that good, I would have made
>> my own Embperl!
>>
>> Please don't take any of this the wrong way - I absolutely LOVE Embper
>> (I can't code anymore without it!).  That's why I get so frustrated
>> when I can't get it all working right.  I can see the potential - but
>> can never seem to find it.
>>
>> Can't wait for any new versions....!
>>
>> Chris Denman
>>
>>
>> 2009/9/18 Richter, Gerald <richter@ecos.de>:
>> >
>> >
>> > 2009/9/17 Michael Stevens <michael.stevens@dianomi.com>
>> >>
>> >> Gerald,
>> >>
>> >> I've attached my diff below. It's mainly from the previous mailing list
>> >> post:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Hoping to see a new release soon?
>> >
>> > Thanks for the patch. I have now not so much workload anymore and hope
>> > to
>> > get out a new version during the next weeks.
>> >
>> > The main work is, that it not only have to work with the newest version
>> > of
>> > Perl , mod_perl and Apache, but with a lot of  older versions and
>> > combinations of them
>> >
>> > Gerald
>> >
>> >
>> >
>
>

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Re: Gerald: please update module to include patch for CGI.pm 3.38+ [ In reply to ]
Richter, Gerald wrote:
> The best would be, if we had a packages maintainers for the main
> distrubtions (like Debian, SUSE, RedHat etc.) which knows about their
> distribution (because I do not know all the specifica of all these
> distributions)

Wasn't Angus Lees doing that for Debian?

I think I tried emailing him a while back, but got no reply.

I use Debian, but I have never gotten into the Debian build and test
process. I'm an experienced developer, but there seems to be another
level of really "hard core" developer that is way above me in terms of
knowledge - they seem to know all the ins and outs of system level stuff
and compiler switches etc which I've just never had to learn, so haven't.

But if there is nobody else around who can do this package maintenance
for Embperl/Debian, then I guess I could start trying to learn... it's
important enough to me, since I use both extensively. But it might make
sense for someone who had access to more hardware variations than I do
(Debian works on many different architectures, after all). Eh, I really
know very little about that stuff. Software got very very complicated!
It was so much simpler back when I was doing 6502 assembler.

Neil

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RE: Gerald: please update module to include patch for CGI.pm 3.38+ [ In reply to ]
> Richter, Gerald wrote:
> > The best would be, if we had a packages maintainers for the main
> > distrubtions (like Debian, SUSE, RedHat etc.) which knows
> about their
> > distribution (because I do not know all the specifica of all these
> > distributions)
>
> Wasn't Angus Lees doing that for Debian?

Angus Lees and Gunnar Wolf:
http://packages.debian.org/lenny/libembperl-perl

> I use Debian, but I have never gotten into the Debian build and test
> process. I'm an experienced developer, but there seems to be another
> level of really "hard core" developer that is way above me in
> terms of
> knowledge - they seem to know all the ins and outs of system
> level stuff
> and compiler switches etc which I've just never had to learn,
> so haven't.

The current stable distribution (lenny) has embperl 2.2.0 and CGI.pm
3.29 (part of the core perl-modules package). The latest versions of
perl-modules in the testing and unstable distributions only include
<3.33 of CGI.pm in the core group (I think - guess from changelogs) so
it looks like things will keep being easily compilable on stock debian.

However, there seems to be a specific package for a more up to date
CGI.pm: libcgi-pm-perl. The description of this package recommends not
using it unless you need POSTDATA but at least you then have the ability
to test builds against the newer combination.


Whilst I've built local packages for the debian systems I maintain to
incorporate some minor bugfixes (patches were posted to the list a while
back) I've never really needed to go into the lower level XS that this
type of packaging seems to require.

I'm more than happy to play with the debian uscan/uupdate tools to see
how far the automated tools get me but currently I don't have a single
system that either has the later versions of CGI.pm standard or requires
it so it won't be something happening in the next week or so I'm afraid.

Cheers,

Andrew

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