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Hello,

On Sunday 13 November 2011 11:11:41 Jonathan Wilson wrote:
> I am looking for someone with some GTK skills to help me with 2 projects.
>
> The first is my Cell Broadcast SMS widget, I need someone who can help me
> write the control panel/settings thing (including use of whatever settings
> storage method makes the most sense)

I already written hildon control panel plugin (clone of maemo-applet-tvout:
http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/maemo-applet-tvout.git/ ), so I can help
you. But What is Cell Broadcast SMS?

>
> The second is related to my virtual keyboard work. Rather than create an
> identical clone of the existing virtual keyboard, I have realized that its
> better to figure out exactly what the external interface to
> libhildon-im-vkbrenderer is and then have someone else with the right GTK
> skills write a new virtual keyboard that confirms to the same externals
> (and is therefore a drop-in replacement)
>
> Please let me know if you have the skills and can help me.
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-developers mailing list
> maemo-developers@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers

--
Pali Rohár
pali.rohar@gmail.com

> I already written hildon control panel plugin (clone of maemo-applet-tvout:
> http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pali/maemo-applet-tvout.git/ ), so I can help
> you. But What is Cell Broadcast SMS?
Already found someone to help me with this work but thanks for the offer.

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On Sun, 2011-11-13 at 11:11 +0800, Jonathan Wilson wrote:
> The second is related to my virtual keyboard work. Rather than create an
> identical clone of the existing virtual keyboard, I have realized that its
> better to figure out exactly what the external interface to
> libhildon-im-vkbrenderer is and then have someone else with the right GTK
> skills write a new virtual keyboard that confirms to the same externals
> (and is therefore a drop-in replacement)

Have you considered Maliit?
http://wiki.maliit.org/Documentation/Installing#Maemo_5_.28Fremantle.29

andre
--
Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster | MeeGo QA)
http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ | http://www.openismus.com

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> Have you considered Maliit?
> http://wiki.maliit.org/Documentation/Installing#Maemo_5_.28Fremantle.29
That looks nice but:
1.Its clearly stated that its use on Maemo5 is "not ready for prime time"
2.Its written in QT (and not only that, it uses QT version labeled
"experimental") and takes over a lot more of the input system than I would
like (including not using Maemo keyboard layouts which is something I want
to keep doing)
and 3.There is no way Maliit or anything based on it would be accepted into
the CSSU because of #1 and #2. (and the CSSU is the eventual target for any
keyboard replacement.

The replacement that I want help to write needs to:
1.Replace as little as possible of the input system (ideally only
hildon-im-vkbrenderer itself)
2.Not use any libs other than whats included in a stock PR1.3.x/CSSU image
3.Be written using just GTK and not QT.
and 4.Be suitable for eventual inclusion into the CSSU.

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On Sun, 2011-11-13 at 17:53 +0800, Jonathan Wilson wrote:
> > Have you considered Maliit?
> > http://wiki.maliit.org/Documentation/Installing#Maemo_5_.28Fremantle.29
> That looks nice but:
> 1.Its clearly stated that its use on Maemo5 is "not ready for prime time"
> 2.Its written in QT (and not only that, it uses QT version labeled
> "experimental") and takes over a lot more of the input system than I would
> like (including not using Maemo keyboard layouts which is something I want
> to keep doing)
> and 3.There is no way Maliit or anything based on it would be accepted into
> the CSSU because of #1 and #2. (and the CSSU is the eventual target for any
> keyboard replacement.

Huh? You sound a bit confused, my friend. Since when would being
Qt-based be a reason against inclusion in CSSU? These days, QML + PySide
is all the rage, and Qt has been in base Maemo5 image for ages now.

Maliit is not ready for prime-time for Fremantle because no one is
actively working on it. What I did back then was a proof of concept,
nothing more.

We do have GTK+ support and we even took in some matchbox-specific
patches. But you need to scratch your own itch. You cannot expect others
to do it for you. That's just how open-source works. So yes, it requires
someone to work on it, and while it won't be me, I'll gladly accept
patches. In an open-source community, your first argument simply doesn't
hold.

You also seem to ignore that it wouldn't only be the MeeGo Keyboard from
Harmattan that you could get (together with all the language layouts
that have gone through extensive usability tests). Maliit is a fully
pluggable framework. Hildon IM was that, too, which is no surprise, as
Maliit is the legitimate successor of Hildon IM – in fact, it's been
designed by the same architect. The architecture allows the possibility
to run other Maliit plugins, Swype being one of them (on the N9), see
http://wiki.maliit.org/Plugins

Sorry to sound harsh, but your arguments appear to belong in the
category of rationalize-after-the-fact (of having decided to go with
reverse engineering hildon-im-vkbrenderer). I know that you're looking
for a cool hack, and I wish you good luck with that. But why not invest
your time in something with wider benefits and contribute to an active
project?

regards,
Michael

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Meh. The reason why QT keyboard would not be acceptable to replace hildon vkb is very simple - QT memory footprint. Did you forget n900 comes with 256MB of RAM? And running even simple QT/QML application consumes about 8%-10% of that? While it sounds very good in theory, in practice(under memory pressure) it would just slow the device even further.



>-------- Оригинално писмо --------
>От: Michael Hasselmann
>Относно: Re: Looking for help from a GTK guy with 2 projects
>До: Jonathan Wilson
>Изпратено на: Понеделник, 2011, Ноември 14 02:45:40 EET

>On Sun, 2011-11-13 at 17:53 +0800, Jonathan Wilson wrote:
>> > Have you considered Maliit?
>> > http://wiki.maliit.org/Documentation/Installing#Maemo_5_.28Fremantle.29
>> That looks nice but:
>> 1.Its clearly stated that its use on Maemo5 is "not ready for prime time"
>> 2.Its written in QT (and not only that, it uses QT version labeled
>> "experimental") and takes over a lot more of the input system than I would
>> like (including not using Maemo keyboard layouts which is something I want
>> to keep doing)
>> and 3.There is no way Maliit or anything based on it would be accepted into
>> the CSSU because of #1 and #2. (and the CSSU is the eventual target for any
>> keyboard replacement.
>
>Huh? You sound a bit confused, my friend. Since when would being
>Qt-based be a reason against inclusion in CSSU? These days, QML + PySide
>is all the rage, and Qt has been in base Maemo5 image for ages now.
>
>Maliit is not ready for prime-time for Fremantle because no one is
>actively working on it. What I did back then was a proof of concept,
>nothing more.
>
>We do have GTK+ support and we even took in some matchbox-specific
>patches. But you need to scratch your own itch. You cannot expect others
>to do it for you. That's just how open-source works. So yes, it requires
>someone to work on it, and while it won't be me, I'll gladly accept
>patches. In an open-source community, your first argument simply doesn't
>hold.
>
>You also seem to ignore that it wouldn't only be the MeeGo Keyboard from
>Harmattan that you could get (together with all the language layouts
>that have gone through extensive usability tests). Maliit is a fully
>pluggable framework. Hildon IM was that, too, which is no surprise, as
>Maliit is the legitimate successor of Hildon IM – in fact, it's been
>designed by the same architect. The architecture allows the possibility
>to run other Maliit plugins, Swype being one of them (on the N9), see
>http://wiki.maliit.org/Plugins
>
>Sorry to sound harsh, but your arguments appear to belong in the
>category of rationalize-after-the-fact (of having decided to go with
>reverse engineering hildon-im-vkbrenderer). I know that you're looking
>for a cool hack, and I wish you good luck with that. But why not invest
>your time in something with wider benefits and contribute to an active
>project?
>
>regards,
>Michael
>
>_______________________________________________
>maemo-developers mailing list
>maemo-developers@maemo.org
>https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
>


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On Mon, 2011-11-14 at 10:23 +0200, Ивайло Димитров wrote:
> Meh. The reason why QT keyboard would not be acceptable to replace
> hildon vkb is very simple - QT memory footprint. Did you forget n900
> comes with 256MB of RAM? And running even simple QT/QML application
> consumes about 8%-10% of that? While it sounds very good in theory, in
> practice(under memory pressure) it would just slow the device even
> further.

Memory footprint is an issue, but most of it should be shared unless you
plan to never ever run any other Qt app on the N900.

Also, why not tackle the memory footprint? As it seems, Qt is not using
a slab allocator. So even for a "simple" QString, the PIMPL and the
QMetaObject are seemingly heap-allocated. Memory trashing is a real
concern.

Glib has been using slab allocators for ages, perhaps the time has come
for Qt to use more than the Glib mainloop ;-)

regards,
Michael

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Although probably related to memory usage, painting Qt widgets takes much more time than Gtk ones (on Fremantle), for apps this may be ok, but for something that has to show quickly this may not be acceptable

Regards,
Mohammad Abu-Garbeyyeh.

On Nov 14, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Michael Hasselmann <michael@taschenorakel.de> wrote:

> On Mon, 2011-11-14 at 10:23 +0200, Ивайло Димитров wrote:
>> Meh. The reason why QT keyboard would not be acceptable to replace
>> hildon vkb is very simple - QT memory footprint. Did you forget n900
>> comes with 256MB of RAM? And running even simple QT/QML application
>> consumes about 8%-10% of that? While it sounds very good in theory, in
>> practice(under memory pressure) it would just slow the device even
>> further.
>
> Memory footprint is an issue, but most of it should be shared unless you
> plan to never ever run any other Qt app on the N900.
>
> Also, why not tackle the memory footprint? As it seems, Qt is not using
> a slab allocator. So even for a "simple" QString, the PIMPL and the
> QMetaObject are seemingly heap-allocated. Memory trashing is a real
> concern.
>
> Glib has been using slab allocators for ages, perhaps the time has come
> for Qt to use more than the Glib mainloop ;-)
>
> regards,
> Michael
>
> _______________________________________________
> maemo-developers mailing list
> maemo-developers@maemo.org
> https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
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On Mon, 2011-11-14 at 12:44 +0200, Mohammad Abu-garbeyyeh wrote:
> Although probably related to memory usage, painting Qt widgets takes
> much more time than Gtk ones (on Fremantle), for apps this may be ok,
> but for something that has to show quickly this may not be acceptable

Maliit is not painting QWidgets. Perhaps you should check the painting
performance first?

regards,
Michael

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On Sun, 2011-11-13 at 17:53 +0800, Jonathan Wilson wrote:
> > Have you considered Maliit?
> > http://wiki.maliit.org/Documentation/Installing#Maemo_5_.28Fremantle.29
> That looks nice but:
> 1.Its clearly stated that its use on Maemo5 is "not ready for prime time"

Errm, but the replacement that you *plan* to write is already "ready for
prime time"? And since when is Qt a blocker?

Anyway, good luck with reinventing the wheel, I'd say. :-/

andre
--
Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster | MeeGo QA)
http://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/ | http://www.openismus.com

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How else does the main window / ux show then?

On Nov 14, 2011, at 1:55 PM, Michael Hasselmann <michael@taschenorakel.de> wrote:

> On Mon, 2011-11-14 at 12:44 +0200, Mohammad Abu-garbeyyeh wrote:
>> Although probably related to memory usage, painting Qt widgets takes
>> much more time than Gtk ones (on Fremantle), for apps this may be ok,
>> but for something that has to show quickly this may not be acceptable
>
> Maliit is not painting QWidgets. Perhaps you should check the painting
> performance first?
>
> regards,
> Michael
>
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On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 11:05 +0200, Mohammad Abu-Garbeyyeh wrote:
> How else does the main window / ux show then?

It uses QWidgets as viewports, and then uses Qt Graphics View. So it's
not something like one QWidget per key or such, that's why I simply
don't believe the painting speed difference matters too much, if it's
only one QWidget.

regards,
Michael

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OK, OK, you sound convincing :) . Will give it a try (when I have some spare time) and will report.


>-------- Оригинално писмо --------
>От: Michael Hasselmann
>Относно: Re: Looking for help from a GTK guy with 2 projects
>До: Mohammad Abu-Garbeyyeh
>Изпратено на: Вторник, 2011, Ноември 15 12:05:37 EET

>On Tue, 2011-11-15 at 11:05 +0200, Mohammad Abu-Garbeyyeh wrote:
>> How else does the main window / ux show then?
>
>It uses QWidgets as viewports, and then uses Qt Graphics View. So it's
>not something like one QWidget per key or such, that's why I simply
>don't believe the painting speed difference matters too much, if it's
>only one QWidget.
>
>regards,
>Michael
>
>


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