Mailing List Archive

Development issues / processes
I still think that the following issues should be figured out for the Lucene
project. I don't know how this works with an open source community, but
since Doug is the project lead, I think he should weigh in on these issues.
I think we have people willing to do the work, I think we just need to all
get on the same page.

Questions:
1) Should Lucene put 3rd party contributions into the projects CVS under a
contrib area?
2) Should there still be a contributions page?
3) Should there be a scratchpad area which basically provides an unsupported
testing ground for new ideas and code?
4) Should there be a sub-project for the web crawler project that is being
discussed?
5) What is the release process for Lucene. That is what do the different
stages mean (alpha, beta, release candidate?)


My thoughts.

1) We should have a contributions area which has code that has been tested
and been re-packaged to fit into the org.apache.lucene.contrib framework. If
this code then becomes part of the default distribution then great.

2) I think yes. I think the contributions cvs area includes repackaged code
that is unsupported. The contributions web page includes links to code that
is created by other and is either not repackaged, or does not make sense to
include as java code (i.e the javacc link, or the pdf converter or the
isogen xml indexing code).

3) I think since everyone is working in a very distributed environment, it
would be nice to have a place to try out ideas and have people comment /
contribute to the code without making it part of Lucene. So I would like to
see this area added for areas of Lucene that someone wants to change. An
example might be serializing the Analyzer (some people want it, other may
not and so it would be nice to see how well it worked in a test unsupported
environment).

4) If people are really going to create this then yes. Create a component
name for it and start the project happening. I think since it will be all
new code and the Lucene API is very stable, it should be a different sub
project on its own time frame.

5) Some ideas on a Lucene release staging process.
Stage 1 (Design) - determine and design new features for next release (this
might change on the way but there should be a defined set)
Stage 2 (Development) - Work on new features
Stage 3 (alpha) - All new features exist, but there are bugs. May fail some
unit testing. Feature Freeze (this may be difficult in a open source
environment)
Stage 4 (beta) - No show stopping bugs and completes all unit tests. Request
outside developers to start working with release. Fix bugs.
Stage 5 (release candidate) - All know bugs have been fixed and the product
is presummed stable. A wider audience tries the release. If not bugs are
found in a 5? day period, the release is goes final gold master. Source code
freeze unless bugs found.
Stage 6 (Gold Master) - The release is final.

Start the process over again.


What do other think of these issues / processes? Any suggestions are
welcome.

--Peter


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RE: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
Sorry I have not been very active on Lucene recently. I went on vacation
for ten days, and since my return my day job has consumed all my time. I
hope to be able to spend increased time on Lucene over the next few weeks.

> From: Peter Carlson [mailto:carlson@bookandhammer.com]
>
> Questions:
> 1) Should Lucene put 3rd party contributions into the
> projects CVS under a
> contrib area?
> 2) Should there still be a contributions page?

I'm in favor of a contributions area, but it requires someone to build and
maintain it. Are you volunteering?

> 3) Should there be a scratchpad area which basically provides
> an unsupported
> testing ground for new ideas and code?

I'm also in favor of a scratchpad. This should not require much maintenance
or administration, but will require someone to set it up initially. Any
volunteers?

> 4) Should there be a sub-project for the web crawler project
> that is being
> discussed?

Sounds like a good idea to me. I've assumed that when someone starts to put
the code together then they'll ask for a place to put it. If they're
already Lucene comitters, then, once we've all agreed on where it should go,
they can create it themselves and start adding code. So I think this is
really gated by the developers in question.

> 5) What is the release process for Lucene. That is what do
> the different
> stages mean (alpha, beta, release candidate?)
>
> 5) Some ideas on a Lucene release staging process.
> Stage 1 (Design) - determine and design new features for next
> release (this
> might change on the way but there should be a defined set)
> Stage 2 (Development) - Work on new features
> Stage 3 (alpha) - All new features exist, but there are bugs.
> May fail some
> unit testing. Feature Freeze (this may be difficult in a open source
> environment)
> Stage 4 (beta) - No show stopping bugs and completes all unit
> tests. Request
> outside developers to start working with release. Fix bugs.
> Stage 5 (release candidate) - All know bugs have been fixed
> and the product
> is presummed stable. A wider audience tries the release. If
> not bugs are
> found in a 5? day period, the release is goes final gold
> master. Source code
> freeze unless bugs found.
> Stage 6 (Gold Master) - The release is final.
>
> Start the process over again.

This would be great, but it takes coordination. I'm the only person who has
made Lucene releases, and I'd personally rather not administer a more
complex process. If someone else would like to become the release master,
I'll gladly relenquish the controls. Anyone interested?

Doug

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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
On Mon, 2002-03-25 at 02:36, Peter Carlson wrote:
> I still think that the following issues should be figured out for the Lucene
> project. I don't know how this works with an open source community, but
> since Doug is the project lead, I think he should weigh in on these issues.
> I think we have people willing to do the work, I think we just need to all
> get on the same page.
>

I think we should just say yay or nay to the scratchpad issue and get
rolling. We had plenty of discussion a couple months ago. Lets get
rolling.

> Questions:
> 1) Should Lucene put 3rd party contributions into the projects CVS under a
> contrib area?

Define "3rd party"

> 2) Should there still be a contributions page?

no opinion.

> 3) Should there be a scratchpad area which basically provides an unsupported
> testing ground for new ideas and code?

Yes! And the application extensions should go there until they are
stable enough

> 4) Should there be a sub-project for the web crawler project that is being
> discussed?

no. "sub project" implies some order of magnitude greater than I think
this is and we sure as heck don't want another mailing list for it. To
be honest I don't really care if you call it a subproject or not. I
more think of this as a package with a different build target. If
that's a subproject....cool.

> 5) What is the release process for Lucene. That is what do the different
> stages mean (alpha, beta, release candidate?)
>
>
> My thoughts.
>
> 1) We should have a contributions area which has code that has been tested
> and been re-packaged to fit into the org.apache.lucene.contrib framework. If
> this code then becomes part of the default distribution then great.
>

But this is different from what we're doing. We've got code
contributions that we're refactoring to meet a already submitted
specification. This is different then an autonomous donation.

> 2) I think yes. I think the contributions cvs area includes repackaged code
> that is unsupported. The contributions web page includes links to code that
> is created by other and is either not repackaged, or does not make sense to
> include as java code (i.e the javacc link, or the pdf converter or the
> isogen xml indexing code).
>
> 3) I think since everyone is working in a very distributed environment, it
> would be nice to have a place to try out ideas and have people comment /
> contribute to the code without making it part of Lucene. So I would like to
> see this area added for areas of Lucene that someone wants to change. An
> example might be serializing the Analyzer (some people want it, other may
> not and so it would be nice to see how well it worked in a test unsupported
> environment).
>

+1 + the application extensions. This is just an area to build and
refactor until we're ready to move into the regular section and have a
separate build target.

> 4) If people are really going to create this then yes. Create a component
> name for it and start the project happening. I think since it will be all
> new code and the Lucene API is very stable, it should be a different sub
> project on its own time frame.
>
> 5) Some ideas on a Lucene release staging process.
> Stage 1 (Design) - determine and design new features for next release (this
> might change on the way but there should be a defined set)
> Stage 2 (Development) - Work on new features
> Stage 3 (alpha) - All new features exist, but there are bugs. May fail some
> unit testing. Feature Freeze (this may be difficult in a open source
> environment)
> Stage 4 (beta) - No show stopping bugs and completes all unit tests. Request
> outside developers to start working with release. Fix bugs.
> Stage 5 (release candidate) - All know bugs have been fixed and the product
> is presummed stable. A wider audience tries the release. If not bugs are
> found in a 5? day period, the release is goes final gold master. Source code
> freeze unless bugs found.
> Stage 6 (Gold Master) - The release is final.
>
> Start the process over again.
>
>
> What do other think of these issues / processes? Any suggestions are
> welcome.
>

Anyhow, I think what I'll do for now is see if I can get a commons
subproject called luceneappext and start this there. When you have all
the issues / processes worked out we can work this in then.

-Andy

> --Peter
>
>
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RE: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
On Mon, 2002-03-25 at 14:04, Doug Cutting wrote:
> Sorry I have not been very active on Lucene recently. I went on vacation
> for ten days, and since my return my day job has consumed all my time. I
> hope to be able to spend increased time on Lucene over the next few weeks.
>
> > From: Peter Carlson [mailto:carlson@bookandhammer.com]
> >
> > Questions:
> > 1) Should Lucene put 3rd party contributions into the
> > projects CVS under a
> > contrib area?
> > 2) Should there still be a contributions page?
>
> I'm in favor of a contributions area, but it requires someone to build and
> maintain it. Are you volunteering?
>
> > 3) Should there be a scratchpad area which basically provides
> > an unsupported
> > testing ground for new ideas and code?
>
> I'm also in favor of a scratchpad. This should not require much maintenance
> or administration, but will require someone to set it up initially. Any
> volunteers?
>

Yup. I already volunteered. Was just looking for a nod.

> > 4) Should there be a sub-project for the web crawler project
> > that is being
> > discussed?
>
> Sounds like a good idea to me. I've assumed that when someone starts to put
> the code together then they'll ask for a place to put it. If they're
> already Lucene comitters, then, once we've all agreed on where it should go,
> they can create it themselves and start adding code. So I think this is
> really gated by the developers in question.
>

Thats me plus a couple others. Complete agreement.

> > 5) What is the release process for Lucene. That is what do
> > the different
> > stages mean (alpha, beta, release candidate?)
> >
> > 5) Some ideas on a Lucene release staging process.
> > Stage 1 (Design) - determine and design new features for next
> > release (this
> > might change on the way but there should be a defined set)
> > Stage 2 (Development) - Work on new features
> > Stage 3 (alpha) - All new features exist, but there are bugs.
> > May fail some
> > unit testing. Feature Freeze (this may be difficult in a open source
> > environment)
> > Stage 4 (beta) - No show stopping bugs and completes all unit
> > tests. Request
> > outside developers to start working with release. Fix bugs.
> > Stage 5 (release candidate) - All know bugs have been fixed
> > and the product
> > is presummed stable. A wider audience tries the release. If
> > not bugs are
> > found in a 5? day period, the release is goes final gold
> > master. Source code
> > freeze unless bugs found.
> > Stage 6 (Gold Master) - The release is final.
> >
> > Start the process over again.
>
> This would be great, but it takes coordination. I'm the only person who has
> made Lucene releases, and I'd personally rather not administer a more
> complex process. If someone else would like to become the release master,
> I'll gladly relenquish the controls. Anyone interested?
>

Certainly not me. Complex processes give me the squirts :-)

-Andy

> Doug
>
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http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound
Document
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
This is a little redundant, as some more recent emails make these
questiosn stale, but I'll share my opinions.

> Questions:
> 1) Should Lucene put 3rd party contributions into the projects CVS
> under a contrib area?

I'm leaning towards a negative answer, unless we can come up with an
efficient way fo doing this and a person who will do this.

> 2) Should there still be a contributions page?

Yes. I think it increases Lucene's value by making is easy for
potential Lucene users to get up and running by reusing code that other
nice people were willing to share.

> 3) Should there be a scratchpad area which basically provides an
> unsupported
> testing ground for new ideas and code?

Yes. I'm for setting it up under Jakarta Commons Sandbox if possible.

> 4) Should there be a sub-project for the web crawler project that is
> being
> discussed?

I'm for sticking it in Jakarta Commons Sandbox project.

> 5) What is the release process for Lucene. That is what do the
> different stages mean (alpha, beta, release candidate?)

I think this is too many stages, too many for a side project that
Lucene is for, I believe, all its developers.

Otis




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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
Hi Andrew,

We have one -1 right now for both contributions and scratchpad.

I am trying to work with Brian to satisfy his issues.
If that doesn't work then we will go with a Majority voting scheme

--Peter


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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
> We have one -1 right now for both contributions and scratchpad.
>
> I am trying to work with Brian to satisfy his issues.

My objection is not to either a contributions area or a scratchpad, its
to putting them in the lucene repo.

Lucene is, right now, quite small. And that's a good thing! I think
keeping it small and simple has a lot of value.

I think the proposed idea of putting the scratchpad in the commons is
fine, and I'd agree to that. I think that's what commons is for,
anyway.

As far as contrib, here's my objection. contrib directories grow
pretty quickly, are rarely well indexed or documented, and tend to
decay -- eventually a lot of contributed code will stop building, if
not stop working. Contributed code is of varying levels of
usefulness, correctness, documentedness, and other qualities.
Eventually, the contrib area becomes a burden. And it often swamps
the size of the core source tree.

I prefer making it a separate repo.


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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
Hi Brian,

Do you think the suggestion of putting separating the core, contrib and
scratchpad into different sub directories will not meet you needs of keeping
the core repository small?


Thanks

--Peter


On 3/26/02 8:34 PM, "Brian Goetz" <brian@quiotix.com> wrote:

>
> My objection is not to either a contributions area or a scratchpad, its
> to putting them in the lucene repo.
>
> Lucene is, right now, quite small. And that's a good thing! I think
> keeping it small and simple has a lot of value.
>
> I think the proposed idea of putting the scratchpad in the commons is
> fine, and I'd agree to that. I think that's what commons is for,
> anyway.
>
> As far as contrib, here's my objection. contrib directories grow
> pretty quickly, are rarely well indexed or documented, and tend to
> decay -- eventually a lot of contributed code will stop building, if
> not stop working. Contributed code is of varying levels of
> usefulness, correctness, documentedness, and other qualities.
> Eventually, the contrib area becomes a burden. And it often swamps
> the size of the core source tree.
>
> I prefer making it a separate repo.


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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
Hello,

--- Brian Goetz <brian@quiotix.com> wrote:
> > We have one -1 right now for both contributions and scratchpad.
> >
> > I am trying to work with Brian to satisfy his issues.
>
> My objection is not to either a contributions area or a scratchpad,
> its
> to putting them in the lucene repo.
>
> Lucene is, right now, quite small. And that's a good thing! I think
> keeping it small and simple has a lot of value.

I know I would find Lucene even more valuable if it had some ready-made
components that would save me time. Not necessarily as a core, but in
any shape or form that would get me started quickly.

> I think the proposed idea of putting the scratchpad in the commons is
> fine, and I'd agree to that. I think that's what commons is for,
> anyway.
>
> As far as contrib, here's my objection. contrib directories grow
> pretty quickly, are rarely well indexed or documented, and tend to
> decay -- eventually a lot of contributed code will stop building, if
> not stop working. Contributed code is of varying levels of
> usefulness, correctness, documentedness, and other qualities.
> Eventually, the contrib area becomes a burden. And it often swamps
> the size of the core source tree.
>
> I prefer making it a separate repo.

One thing I noticed today was that we are going through all this
trouble of discussing theory. Why not try things and change them if we
see that they need changing. It is not like we cannot undo or change
things in the repository. If it grows too big or anything, we move it
out to a new home and cvs remove from the repository. Done deal.
My 0.02 sleepy liras.

Otis


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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
> Do you think the suggestion of putting separating the core, contrib and
> scratchpad into different sub directories will not meet you needs of keeping
> the core repository small?

Its a thought. My concern about this would be that someone browsing
the repo via the CVSweb interface for the first time might be
confused. Keeping a VERY SMALL number of files, directories only, at
the top level would help mitigate this.

There's another very significant advantage to a separate repo for
contrib -- we can grant commit on that much more lightly than on the
core. This increases the chance that contributions in contrib/ will
be maintained by their contributor, if (s)he can commit them.

I still prefer the idea of putting the scratchpad in commons.


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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
> One thing I noticed today was that we are going through all this
> trouble of discussing theory. Why not try things and change them if we
> see that they need changing.

Heh, that sounds fine in theory, but just wait for the HOWL of protest
when you go to change something.

> It is not like we cannot undo or change
> things in the repository. If it grows too big or anything, we move it
> out to a new home and cvs remove from the repository. Done deal.

My experience is that this doesn't actually happen until its way
overdue. Do it right the first time.


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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
Umm.. I don't think non-consensus is available just because you loose:

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/decisions.html

On Tue, 2002-03-26 at 21:03, Peter Carlson wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> We have one -1 right now for both contributions and scratchpad.
>
> I am trying to work with Brian to satisfy his issues.
> If that doesn't work then we will go with a Majority voting scheme
>
> --Peter
>
>
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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
> As far as contrib, here's my objection. contrib directories grow
> pretty quickly, are rarely well indexed or documented, and tend to
> decay -- eventually a lot of contributed code will stop building, if
> not stop working. Contributed code is of varying levels of
> usefulness, correctness, documentedness, and other qualities.
> Eventually, the contrib area becomes a burden. And it often swamps
> the size of the core source tree.
>
> I prefer making it a separate repo.
>

Do me a favor... You go into "general@jakarta.apache.org" and say "can I
have a second CVS module for Lucene, because I want to keep my cvs
repository clean" -- see what kind of reception you get.

>
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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
On Wed, 2002-03-27 at 01:24, Brian Goetz wrote:
> > Do you think the suggestion of putting separating the core, contrib and
> > scratchpad into different sub directories will not meet you needs of keeping
> > the core repository small?
>
> Its a thought. My concern about this would be that someone browsing
> the repo via the CVSweb interface for the first time might be
> confused. Keeping a VERY SMALL number of files, directories only, at
> the top level would help mitigate this.
>

Um thats the REASON for scratchpad - its well recognized and not in the
main area and as directories get cut and yet still remain they are
obviously dead, where if immature stuff is in the main trunk this
happens all over instead of in the scratchpad. The Universe is more
beautiful and has more stars because it has nebulas.

> There's another very significant advantage to a separate repo for
> contrib -- we can grant commit on that much more lightly than on the
> core. This increases the chance that contributions in contrib/ will
> be maintained by their contributor, if (s)he can commit them.
>
> I still prefer the idea of putting the scratchpad in commons.
>
>
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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
Brian,

Thanks for detailing your reasons.
The very small repository issue seems mitigated since someone would only
have to download the core subdirectory. Also, I think that well named
directories like contrib/ and scratchpad/ would not be too confusing to most
developers, although I think creating some documentation around this would
be a good idea.

I do like the idea of potentially have more developers able to contribute to
the scratchpad and contrib area.

I will ask for a new Repo for this area under the name
Apache/Jakarta-Lucene-Sandbox/

If there is trouble getting this repository, do you think the sub directory
approach is an alternative? If not, do you have any other suggestions.

Thanks

--Peter



On 3/26/02 10:24 PM, "Brian Goetz" <brian@quiotix.com> wrote:

> the repo via the CVSweb interface for the first time might be
> confused. Keeping a VERY SMALL number of files, directories only, at
> the top level would help mitigate this.
>
> There's another very significant advantage to a separate repo for
> contrib -- we can grant commit on that much more lightly than on the
> core. This increases the chance that contributions in contrib/ will
> be maintained by their contributor, if (s)he can commit them.
>
> I still prefer the idea of putting the scratchpad in commons.


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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
on 3/27/02 5:08 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver@apache.org> wrote:

> Do me a favor... You go into "general@jakarta.apache.org" and say "can I
> have a second CVS module for Lucene, because I want to keep my cvs
> repository clean" -- see what kind of reception you get.

It is 100% valid for Lucene to create

jakarta-lucene-foo

-jon


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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
> I do like the idea of potentially have more developers able to contribute to
> the scratchpad and contrib area.

All the more argument to put them in commons.


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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
I like the idea of having more developers contribute, but I think the idea
of having Lucene related projects be connected to Lucene is paramount.
I would be willing to have the number of developers be limited and keep them
together, then have it as part of another project just because they have the
infrastructure to deal with this.
Also, from my understanding commons is a place for projects that are common
to all projects, not just a melting pot of stuff.

What are your thoughts on this?

--Peter


On 3/27/02 11:05 AM, "Brian Goetz" <brian@quiotix.com> wrote:

>> I do like the idea of potentially have more developers able to contribute to
>> the scratchpad and contrib area.
>
> All the more argument to put them in commons.
>
>
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>


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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
Lets create a repository:

jakarta-lucene-contrib
and/or
jakarta-lucene-scratchpad

That should be extremely easy and will resolve all the issues (IMHO).

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Scott Stevens" <jon@latchkey.com>
To: "Lucene Developers List" <lucene-dev@jakarta.apache.org>
Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Development issues / processes


> on 3/27/02 5:08 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver@apache.org> wrote:
>
> > Do me a favor... You go into "general@jakarta.apache.org" and say "can I
> > have a second CVS module for Lucene, because I want to keep my cvs
> > repository clean" -- see what kind of reception you get.
>
> It is 100% valid for Lucene to create
>
> jakarta-lucene-foo
>
> -jon
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
<mailto:lucene-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org>
> For additional commands, e-mail:
<mailto:lucene-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org>


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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
How is this done.
I request information from the jakarta-General mailling list, but have not
gotten any feedback.


Thanks

--Peter

On 3/27/02 2:28 PM, "Eugene Gluzberg" <drag0n2@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Lets create a repository:
>
> jakarta-lucene-contrib
> and/or
> jakarta-lucene-scratchpad
>
> That should be extremely easy and will resolve all the issues (IMHO).
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jon Scott Stevens" <jon@latchkey.com>
> To: "Lucene Developers List" <lucene-dev@jakarta.apache.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2002 1:27 PM
> Subject: Re: Development issues / processes
>
>
>> on 3/27/02 5:08 AM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <acoliver@apache.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Do me a favor... You go into "general@jakarta.apache.org" and say "can I
>>> have a second CVS module for Lucene, because I want to keep my cvs
>>> repository clean" -- see what kind of reception you get.
>>
>> It is 100% valid for Lucene to create
>>
>> jakarta-lucene-foo
>>
>> -jon
>>
>>
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> <mailto:lucene-dev-unsubscribe@jakarta.apache.org>
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> <mailto:lucene-dev-help@jakarta.apache.org>
>
>
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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
on 3/27/02 2:33 PM, "Peter Carlson" <carlson@bookandhammer.com> wrote:

> How is this done.
> I request information from the jakarta-General mailling list, but have not
> gotten any feedback.
>
> Thanks
>
> --Peter

Give it some time dude...in case you missed it, this is a volunteer
organization, not some group of people who jump the instant you request
something...

-jon


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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
I was away for a few days.
I was wondering if we have reached a conclusion for this thread?

Otis


__________________________________________________
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Re: Development issues / processes [ In reply to ]
Hi
I have still have not heard back if we can do add the new Lucene cvs.

I sent another email to jakarta-general this morning. I hope to hear back
soon.

--Peter


On 4/1/02 10:17 AM, "Otis Gospodnetic" <otis_gospodnetic@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I was away for a few days.
> I was wondering if we have reached a conclusion for this thread?
>
> Otis
>
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Greetings - send holiday greetings for Easter, Passover
> http://greetings.yahoo.com/
>
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