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Hi Lars,

On 2011-03-28 14:26, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
>> The Linux Foundation Announces High Availability Working Group
>>
>> New demands on high-availability computing are met with collaborative
>> approach to hosting projects, prioritizing features
>>
>> SAN FRANCISCO {Linux Foundation Collaboration Summit} April 6, 2011 ?
>> The Linux Foundation, the nonprofit organization dedicated to
>> accelerating the growth of Linux, today announced the formation of the
>> High Availability (HA) Working Group.
>>
>> The Working Group will bring together projects and stakeholders to
>> collaboratively define the open source HA software stack and
>> prioritize features based on input from developers, vendors, and
>> customers that include the companies and governments running
>> mission-critical workloads in the world's most sophisticated
>> environments.

Waaaah. I refuse to acknowledge that sentences over 6 lines are anything
but an impediment to communications. :) How about:

"Enterprises and governments today deploy Linux for mission-critical
workloads in the world's most sophisticated environments. The Working
Group will bring together projects and stakeholders to define the open
source HA software stack, and collaboratively prioritize features based
on input from developers, vendors, and customers."

>> The projects that will participate in this forum hosted by The Linux
>> Foundation include corosync, DRBD, GFS2, hawk, Linux-HA, Linux Virtual
>> Server, OCFS2, Open Clustering Framework, and pacemaker.

>> Founding
>> companies include LIN:BIT Novell, NTT, Oracle and Red Hat.

The conspicuous absence of a comma between LINBIT and Novell seems to
imply that we have acquired your brand name, and we're not quite there
yet. :)

>> The
>> technology is already adopted by Debian, Fedora, openSUSE and Ubuntu,

Either "is already being adopted" or "has been adopted." Or, even
better, kill passive voice and put "Debian, Fedora, OpenSUSE and Ubuntu
have already adopted the technology."

>> as well as the leading enterprise distributions.

Why not call them out?

>> There will a full-day track dedicated to HA at the upcoming Linux
>> Foundation Collaboration Summit:
>> http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/collaboration-summit/hpc.

HPC? You sure?

>> And, the HA Working Group members will be meeting at a mini-summit
>> preceding the The Linux Foundation's first annual LinuxCon Europe
>> taking place in Prague October 24th-26th:
>> http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/linuxcon-europe.
>>
>> ?The Linux Foundation?s HA Working Group will bring together leading
>> projects to collaborate on a common set of components and priorities
>> to support this growing area in the enterprise,? said Jim Zemlin,
>> executive director at The Linux Foundation. ?The collaborative
>> development model can accelerate the advancement of key technologies
>> and we expect the HA Working Group will do just that.?
>>
>> HA refers to the availability of resources in a computer system or
>> network and today is more critical than ever due to internal and
>> external demands on infrastructure and applications. Ranging by
>> industry, analysts have estimated that the cost of computing downtime
>> is well over $1 million an hour. With an explosion of big data and new
>> expectations from business customers and consumers about 24/7
>> connectivity, HA is taking center stage among the Linux community.
>>
>> As the requirements on HA computing have increased, Linux has risen in
>> its popularity among companies working on these systems. Achieving HA
>> with cluster computing, cloud computing, and virtualization, among
>> other strategies, can be maximized with Linux. Commodity-based
>> hardware and software components make it easier and more affordable to
>> deliver the high-performance, availability and scalability required of
>> mission-critical Linux systems.

Fine by me.

Cheers,
Florian

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On 2011-03-28T14:39:54, Florian Haas <florian.haas at linbit.com> wrote:

> >> The Working Group will bring together projects and stakeholders to
> >> collaboratively define the open source HA software stack and
> >> prioritize features based on input from developers, vendors, and
> >> customers that include the companies and governments running
> >> mission-critical workloads in the world's most sophisticated
> >> environments.
>
> Waaaah. I refuse to acknowledge that sentences over 6 lines are anything
> but an impediment to communications. :) How about:
>
> "Enterprises and governments today deploy Linux for mission-critical
> workloads in the world's most sophisticated environments. The Working
> Group will bring together projects and stakeholders to define the open
> source HA software stack, and collaboratively prioritize features based
> on input from developers, vendors, and customers."

I think we just got a slight variation of the default Data Center Linux
quote. ;-) I'll suggest your edits.

> >> Founding
> >> companies include LIN:BIT Novell, NTT, Oracle and Red Hat.
>
> The conspicuous absence of a comma between LINBIT and Novell seems to
> imply that we have acquired your brand name, and we're not quite there
> yet. :)

I think it may just have been a misplaced punctuation mark. ;-)

> >> The
> >> technology is already adopted by Debian, Fedora, openSUSE and Ubuntu,
>
> Either "is already being adopted" or "has been adopted." Or, even
> better, kill passive voice and put "Debian, Fedora, OpenSUSE and Ubuntu
> have already adopted the technology."

Probably "Has already been or is being adopted by", though it is even
more unwieldly. (Not all distributions have equal support and it's still
evolving too ...)

> >> as well as the leading enterprise distributions.
> Why not call them out?

Marketing override, it seems. Didn't want to include member products;
which one do you name first? Etc.

> >> There will a full-day track dedicated to HA at the upcoming Linux
> >> Foundation Collaboration Summit:
> >> http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/collaboration-summit/hpc.
> HPC? You sure?

Yeah, I got bullied into a half hour slot in a pre-existing track ~ two
weeks ago, but so late notice that they didn't get to setup a whole
track. (I swear there's nothing sinister about it, except that it was a
rush job.)


Regards,
Lars

--
Architect Storage/HA, OPS Engineering, Novell, Inc.
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG N?rnberg)
"Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde

On 2011-03-28 14:46, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:

>>>> The
>>>> technology is already adopted by Debian, Fedora, openSUSE and Ubuntu,
>>
>> Either "is already being adopted" or "has been adopted." Or, even
>> better, kill passive voice and put "Debian, Fedora, OpenSUSE and Ubuntu
>> have already adopted the technology."
>
> Probably "Has already been or is being adopted by", though it is even
> more unwieldly. (Not all distributions have equal support and it's still
> evolving too ...)

Please note this is a marketing message, not something you will be
called to write a regression test for.

>>>> as well as the leading enterprise distributions.
>> Why not call them out?
>
> Marketing override, it seems. Didn't want to include member products;
> which one do you name first? Etc.

Argl. :)

>>>> There will a full-day track dedicated to HA at the upcoming Linux
>>>> Foundation Collaboration Summit:
>>>> http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/collaboration-summit/hpc.
>> HPC? You sure?
>
> Yeah, I got bullied into a half hour slot in a pre-existing track ~ two
> weeks ago, but so late notice that they didn't get to setup a whole
> track. (I swear there's nothing sinister about it, except that it was a
> rush job.)

I didn't assume anything sinister; I was merely suspecting a typo. If it
isn't one, fair enough.

Cheers,
Florian

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On 3/28/2011 2:26 PM, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:

>>
>> The projects that will participate in this forum hosted by The Linux
>> Foundation include corosync, DRBD, GFS2, hawk, Linux-HA, Linux Virtual
>> Server, OCFS2, Open Clustering Framework, and pacemaker.

Can we also add cman and luci here? They are still supported/active
components of the stack.

Fabio

On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Fabio M. Di Nitto <fdinitto at redhat.com> wrote:
> On 3/28/2011 2:26 PM, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
>
>>>
>>> The projects that will participate in this forum hosted by The Linux
>>> Foundation include corosync, DRBD, GFS2, hawk, Linux-HA, Linux Virtual
>>> Server, OCFS2, Open Clustering Framework, and pacemaker.
>
> Can we also add cman and luci here? They are still supported/active
> components of the stack.

Without my RH hat on, I would suggest no for cman (based on the same
logic as heartbeat - dead technology we're trying to kill).
With my RH hat on, I'm on PTO and don't know what I think yet.

On 3/28/2011 4:35 PM, Andrew Beekhof wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Fabio M. Di Nitto <fdinitto at redhat.com> wrote:
>> On 3/28/2011 2:26 PM, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> The projects that will participate in this forum hosted by The Linux
>>>> Foundation include corosync, DRBD, GFS2, hawk, Linux-HA, Linux Virtual
>>>> Server, OCFS2, Open Clustering Framework, and pacemaker.
>>
>> Can we also add cman and luci here? They are still supported/active
>> components of the stack.
>
> Without my RH hat on, I would suggest no for cman (based on the same
> logic as heartbeat - dead technology we're trying to kill).
> With my RH hat on, I'm on PTO and don't know what I think yet.

Ok right, let?s skip cman, but luci is far from being dead and should be
there.


Fabio

Agreed on luci

Sent from my PDA

On 28 Mar 2011, at 16:38, "Fabio M. Di Nitto" <fdinitto at redhat.com> wrote:

> On 3/28/2011 4:35 PM, Andrew Beekhof wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Fabio M. Di Nitto <fdinitto at redhat.com> wrote:
>>> On 3/28/2011 2:26 PM, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The projects that will participate in this forum hosted by The Linux
>>>>> Foundation include corosync, DRBD, GFS2, hawk, Linux-HA, Linux Virtual
>>>>> Server, OCFS2, Open Clustering Framework, and pacemaker.
>>>
>>> Can we also add cman and luci here? They are still supported/active
>>> components of the stack.
>>
>> Without my RH hat on, I would suggest no for cman (based on the same
>> logic as heartbeat - dead technology we're trying to kill).
>> With my RH hat on, I'm on PTO and don't know what I think yet.
>
> Ok right, let?s skip cman, but luci is far from being dead and should be
> there.
>
>
> Fabio

Capital P for Pacemaker. And what is the Linux-HA project these days? We're not including heartbeat in that umbrella are we?

Sent from my PDA

On 28 Mar 2011, at 14:26, Lars Marowsky-Bree <lmb at novell.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> time for the first round of work! ;-)
>
> The Linux Foundation wishes to send out a press release about this new
> working group at the time of Collab Summit. Which is all fairly short
> notice, for which I apologize, but I only got the draft Friday evening
> too.
>
> This is the proposed draft - it's fairly late, and apparently, the
> blandness is a bit by design, I'm told. ;-) So we don't get to do major
> changes, but can do minor corrections & edits.
>
> Please discuss them here; I'll aggregate & pass them on to their press
> person Tuesday night.
>
> Also, the press release is intended to be spiced up with company quote
> section; always looks good, apparently. But clearly, we can't discuss
> company statements here, so that section isn't included in this draft.
>
> If your company is interested, please pass on a press contact to me! The
> LF will then directly contact you.
>
>
>> The Linux Foundation Announces High Availability Working Group
>>
>> New demands on high-availability computing are met with collaborative
>> approach to hosting projects, prioritizing features
>>
>> SAN FRANCISCO {Linux Foundation Collaboration Summit} April 6, 2011 ?
>> The Linux Foundation, the nonprofit organization dedicated to
>> accelerating the growth of Linux, today announced the formation of the
>> High Availability (HA) Working Group.
>>
>> The Working Group will bring together projects and stakeholders to
>> collaboratively define the open source HA software stack and
>> prioritize features based on input from developers, vendors, and
>> customers that include the companies and governments running
>> mission-critical workloads in the world's most sophisticated
>> environments.
>>
>> The projects that will participate in this forum hosted by The Linux
>> Foundation include corosync, DRBD, GFS2, hawk, Linux-HA, Linux Virtual
>> Server, OCFS2, Open Clustering Framework, and pacemaker. Founding
>> companies include LIN:BIT Novell, NTT, Oracle and Red Hat. The
>> technology is already adopted by Debian, Fedora, openSUSE and Ubuntu,
>> as well as the leading enterprise distributions.
>>
>> There will a full-day track dedicated to HA at the upcoming Linux
>> Foundation Collaboration Summit:
>> http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/collaboration-summit/hpc.
>> And, the HA Working Group members will be meeting at a mini-summit
>> preceding the The Linux Foundation's first annual LinuxCon Europe
>> taking place in Prague October 24th-26th:
>> http://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/linuxcon-europe.
>>
>> ?The Linux Foundation?s HA Working Group will bring together leading
>> projects to collaborate on a common set of components and priorities
>> to support this growing area in the enterprise,? said Jim Zemlin,
>> executive director at The Linux Foundation. ?The collaborative
>> development model can accelerate the advancement of key technologies
>> and we expect the HA Working Group will do just that.?
>>
>> HA refers to the availability of resources in a computer system or
>> network and today is more critical than ever due to internal and
>> external demands on infrastructure and applications. Ranging by
>> industry, analysts have estimated that the cost of computing downtime
>> is well over $1 million an hour. With an explosion of big data and new
>> expectations from business customers and consumers about 24/7
>> connectivity, HA is taking center stage among the Linux community.
>>
>> As the requirements on HA computing have increased, Linux has risen in
>> its popularity among companies working on these systems. Achieving HA
>> with cluster computing, cloud computing, and virtualization, among
>> other strategies, can be maximized with Linux. Commodity-based
>> hardware and software components make it easier and more affordable to
>> deliver the high-performance, availability and scalability required of
>> mission-critical Linux systems.
>
>
> Regards,
> Lars
>
> --
> Architect Storage/HA, OPS Engineering, Novell, Inc.
> SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG N?rnberg)
> "Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde
>
> _______________________________________________
> ha-wg mailing list
> ha-wg at lists.linux-foundation.org
> https://lists.linux-foundation.org/mailman/listinfo/ha-wg

On 2011-03-28 16:35, Andrew Beekhof wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Fabio M. Di Nitto <fdinitto at redhat.com> wrote:
>> On 3/28/2011 2:26 PM, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
>>
>>>>
>>>> The projects that will participate in this forum hosted by The Linux
>>>> Foundation include corosync, DRBD, GFS2, hawk, Linux-HA, Linux Virtual
>>>> Server, OCFS2, Open Clustering Framework, and pacemaker.
>>
>> Can we also add cman and luci here? They are still supported/active
>> components of the stack.
>
> Without my RH hat on, I would suggest no for cman (based on the same
> logic as heartbeat - dead technology we're trying to kill).

1. Linux-HA != Heartbeat. There is still cluster-glue. And until
Matahari is good enough to replace it, afaict lrmd is gonna hang around, no?

2. Killing Heartbeat isn't gonna happen until it is _evident to users_
(not developers) that Corosync is better. I've said this before and will
continue to do so until we have addressed this properly.

So, as far as I'm concerned, mentioning Linux-HA in there is just fine.

Florian

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On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 11:28 AM, Florian Haas <florian.haas at linbit.com> wrote:
> On 2011-03-28 16:35, Andrew Beekhof wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 28, 2011 at 3:39 PM, Fabio M. Di Nitto <fdinitto at redhat.com> wrote:
>>> On 3/28/2011 2:26 PM, Lars Marowsky-Bree wrote:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The projects that will participate in this forum hosted by The Linux
>>>>> Foundation include corosync, DRBD, GFS2, hawk, Linux-HA, Linux Virtual
>>>>> Server, OCFS2, Open Clustering Framework, and pacemaker.
>>>
>>> Can we also add cman and luci here? They are still supported/active
>>> components of the stack.
>>
>> Without my RH hat on, I would suggest no for cman (based on the same
>> logic as heartbeat - dead technology we're trying to kill).
>
> 1. Linux-HA != Heartbeat.

I never said it was. I only asked, elsewhere, for clarification that
this was other people's understanding too.

> There is still cluster-glue. And until
> Matahari is good enough to replace it, afaict lrmd is gonna hang around, no?

Of course

>
> 2. Killing Heartbeat isn't gonna happen until it is _evident to users_
> (not developers) that Corosync is better. I've said this before and will
> continue to do so until we have addressed this properly.

Read again what I wrote: "dead technology we're trying to kill" - key
word being "trying".
No one used past-tense.

> So, as far as I'm concerned, mentioning Linux-HA in there is just fine.

Assume this also relates to my other mail on the subject.
Like I said, I was just looking for clarification. My objection was
against the potential inclusion heartbeat (which doesn't seem to be on
the agenda) not "Linux-HA" in general.

On 2011-03-28T17:02:50, Andrew Beekhof <andrew at beekhof.net> wrote:

> Agreed on luci

Dito, added.

Regards,
Lars

--
Architect Storage/HA, OPS Engineering, Novell, Inc.
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG N?rnberg)
"Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde

On 2011-03-28T19:54:10, Andrew Beekhof <andrew at beekhof.net> wrote:

> Capital P for Pacemaker. And what is the Linux-HA project these days? We're not including heartbeat in that umbrella are we?

Hi Andrew,

Linux-HA is still well known, so referencing it, even though its current
technical contributions to the stack are diminishing, seems beneficial.
Also, there's at least historical reasoning.

The domain names (and possibly trademark) are within the scope here,
though; they're probably still a pretty frequent entry point, and would
make a good landing page ...

And no, we're not including heartbeat, just like we don't include cman;
because we're trying to supersede these. corosync + Pacemaker to rule
them all. ;-)


Regards,
Lars

--
Architect Storage/HA, OPS Engineering, Novell, Inc.
SUSE LINUX Products GmbH, GF: Markus Rex, HRB 16746 (AG N?rnberg)
"Experience is the name everyone gives to their mistakes." -- Oscar Wilde