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RE: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Li Yang-r58472 wrote:
>
> So as I argued in a previous email, non-native English speakers tend to
> be more confused by the policies and processes. I also don't think it's
> necessary to translate the technical documents. To be a software
> developer, one has to be educated or experienced in technical terms.
> Technical discussion can be done without too much requirement to grammar
> and emotional expressing. The translated document of policies and
> processes will help these people to understand the process better and go
> smoother in the process.

I do agree.

I think that the policies and processes parts of the documentation are
things that make total sense to encourage translation of, because it's
entirely possible that those are interesting and valid even to the people
who aren't necessarily directly involved in the actual coding, and may
well be relevant to managers etc who may not be _directly_ involed with
the rest of the kernel developers.

In fact, I suspect pretty much any documentation (whether technical or
about processes and/or style) makes sense to have translated if the energy
and ability to do that exists. I suspect the "policies and processes"
kinds of docs make _more_ sense to translate initially, simply because
they are approachable on their own - but I certainly would never
discourage anybody from translating anything at all.

That said, I don't think that merging the result into the standard kernel
makes sense - like it or not, right now English ends up being required
to be part of actually getting things into the "standard" kernel, and as
such, at _some_ point there has to be a connection point that switches
over to English, and trying to make the translations be an in-kernel thing
is thus kind of pointless.

But as part of some "documentation site", it makes 100% sense.

And sometimes maybe the issue isn't even just about straight translations,
but also perhaps about explaining cultural differences that aren't
mentioned at all in the documentation, just because people in the west end
up taking certain things for granted and it doesn't "need" documenting..

Linus
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Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO [ In reply to ]
A little issue about "when is translation good"

I usually tell people to use vimtutor's example to set up syntax
highlighting in vim. I usually only install OSs in english because
translations tend to be poor and hard to comprehend.

Now, I'm from argentina, and I live with a lingüist. He doesn't handle
english very well, and he wanted to get rid of Windows, so we
installed ubuntu, Locale:SP_ARG.

vim is in spanish, and so is vimtutor. vimtutor's spanish translation
doesn't have anything on syntax highlighting: the translation is poor.

my point: IMHO it's better to have no translation than a poor one

T

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Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO [ In reply to ]
Linus Torvalds wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Jun 2007, Li Yang-r58472 wrote:
>
>> So as I argued in a previous email, non-native English speakers tend to
>> be more confused by the policies and processes. I also don't think it's
>> necessary to translate the technical documents. To be a software
>> developer, one has to be educated or experienced in technical terms.
>> Technical discussion can be done without too much requirement to grammar
>> and emotional expressing. The translated document of policies and
>> processes will help these people to understand the process better and go
>> smoother in the process.
>>
>
> I do agree.
>
> I think that the policies and processes parts of the documentation are
> things that make total sense to encourage translation of, because it's
> entirely possible that those are interesting and valid even to the people
> who aren't necessarily directly involved in the actual coding, and may
> well be relevant to managers etc who may not be _directly_ involed with
> the rest of the kernel developers.
>
> In fact, I suspect pretty much any documentation (whether technical or
> about processes and/or style) makes sense to have translated if the energy
> and ability to do that exists. I suspect the "policies and processes"
> kinds of docs make _more_ sense to translate initially, simply because
> they are approachable on their own - but I certainly would never
> discourage anybody from translating anything at all.
>
> That said, I don't think that merging the result into the standard kernel
> makes sense - like it or not, right now English ends up being required
> to be part of actually getting things into the "standard" kernel, and as
> such, at _some_ point there has to be a connection point that switches
> over to English, and trying to make the translations be an in-kernel thing
> is thus kind of pointless.
>
> But as part of some "documentation site", it makes 100% sense.
>
> And sometimes maybe the issue isn't even just about straight translations,
> but also perhaps about explaining cultural differences that aren't
> mentioned at all in the documentation, just because people in the west end
> up taking certain things for granted and it doesn't "need" documenting..
>
>
As I know, there are a lot of standalone kernel developer in China. They
write device drivers for their chips or iptables modules for their
linux based network devices. They send source files to their customers
or publish them on web but seldom do anything to make the codes into
kernel source tree. The usual reason is they do not know how to
communicate and work with the Linux kernel development community. People
will have more chance to read these documentation if we merge them to
the kernel source tree.

TripleX

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Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO [ In reply to ]
On Friday 22 June 2007 02:07:57 dave young wrote:
> > > Yes, I agree with you, and there's so many other languages, It's
> > > better for someone to create a standalone kdoc translation project
> > > than to merge them into kernel.
> >
> > I wasn't suggesting merging them into the kernel.
>
> I'm misunderstanded.
>
> I means:
> Yes, I agree with you.
> There's so many other languages, It's better for someone to create a
> standalone kdoc translation project than to merge them into kernel.

I agree, but this is just an opinion. (I see where Greg KH wants to merge it
into the kernel.)

> > The question is, do the kernel developers want to encourage people who
> > don't speak English to mess with the kernel, any more than they want to
> > encourage kernel developers who don't know C? Is kernel documentation in
> > Chinese a better idea than a repository of kernel patches in C++?
> > (Either way, work resulting from this is much less likely than normal to
> > be merged into the kernel.)
>
> It's another issue.
>
> Someone don't speak english , but it don't means they haven't
> programming skilles. As long as one can help to promote the kernel
> development he is welcomed.

I agree that programming talent can exist without the ability to speak
English. But will the resulting patches get merged if the developer can't
communicate with the Linux development community?

I dealt with a programmer on the BusyBox project who only speaks Russian, and
uses a babelfish variant to translate everything. This was incredibly
frustrating: he regularly misunderstood what we were saying, we regularly had
no idea what he was saying, his attempts at commenting the code were often
worse than not commeting it at all, and after three years his ability to
communicate hadn't improved in the slightest.

Possibly we'd need some volunteer translators just for the purpose of merging
code in languages we'd translated the documentation into? A "chinese patch
maintainer" or some such?

Rob
--
"One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code."
- Ken Thompson.
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Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO [ In reply to ]
On Friday 22 June 2007 05:21:23 Alan Cox wrote:
> > The question is, do the kernel developers want to encourage people who
> > don't speak English to mess with the kernel, any more than they want to
> > encourage kernel developers who don't know C? Is kernel documentation in
> > Chinese a
>
> The majority of the world population do not speak English. There are
> existing contributors do not speak English (and I'm not being funny about
> the USSA here) - you don't notice because they have a team member who
> speaks passable English.

Ok. Cool. If this is not a problem, that's good to know.

> There are also entire non-English sites around things like Linux that
> monoglot English speakers generally don't notice exist.

I'm aware of this.

> > P.S. The hardest part of putting together a kernel documentation web
> > page is actually indexing it coherently. It's not very useful to just
> > dump together
>
> For the kernel I would follow the kernel tree so that its always
>
> /[languagecode]/Documentation/...

That PS was about putting up a kernel doc web page, not about the existing
kernel Documentation tree.

The existing Documentation tree has, at the top level, coding style
guidelines, files documenting the kernel community, a file documenting the
Amiga "zorro" bus, a half-dozen files about old multiport serial cards,
documentation about several different types of locking, a penguin graphic
from 1996, your documentation on the tty layer, a document on how to
configure BINFMT_MISC to autorun .NET files with mono, and zillions of other
random unrelated topics that are sorted based on where random passerby put
things down last.

I sent a couple patches to shuffle stuff around in there but it got lost on
the noise. More to the point, an HTML index can hotlink but text files have
a harder time doing that, so if I'm making an HTML index it's probably best
to link to the text files but not attempt to navigate with them.

Rob
--
"One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code."
- Ken Thompson.
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Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO [ In reply to ]
> As I know, there are a lot of standalone kernel developer in China. They
> write device drivers for their chips or iptables modules for their
> linux based network devices. They send source files to their customers
> or publish them on web but seldom do anything to make the codes into
> kernel source tree. The usual reason is they do not know how to
> communicate and work with the Linux kernel development community. People
> will have more chance to read these documentation if we merge them to
> the kernel source tree.
>
> TripleX
>

Well, not necessarily they'll need to go to the source tree. Having a
website or something like that would just be fine IMO.

tong
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Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO [ In reply to ]
On Friday 22 June 2007 13:02:26 Linus Torvalds wrote:
> In fact, I suspect pretty much any documentation (whether technical or
> about processes and/or style) makes sense to have translated if the energy
> and ability to do that exists. I suspect the "policies and processes"
> kinds of docs make _more_ sense to translate initially, simply because
> they are approachable on their own - but I certainly would never
> discourage anybody from translating anything at all.
>
> That said, I don't think that merging the result into the standard kernel
> makes sense - like it or not, right now English ends up being required
> to be part of actually getting things into the "standard" kernel, and as
> such, at _some_ point there has to be a connection point that switches
> over to English, and trying to make the translations be an in-kernel thing
> is thus kind of pointless.
>
> But as part of some "documentation site", it makes 100% sense.

Ok, I've got some documentation site, specifically http://kernel.org/doc (and
I'll be completely redoing it as soon as I've recovered from my recent laptop
crash and OLS).

Send me translations (preferably in HTML format), and I'll put 'em up. (I've
already got the one that started this thread.)

Thanks,

Rob
--
"One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code."
- Ken Thompson.
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Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO [ In reply to ]
On Friday 22 June 2007 14:39:36 TripleX wrote:
> As I know, there are a lot of standalone kernel developer in China. They
> write device drivers for their chips or iptables modules for their
> linux based network devices. They send source files to their customers
> or publish them on web but seldom do anything to make the codes into
> kernel source tree. The usual reason is they do not know how to
> communicate and work with the Linux kernel development community. People
> will have more chance to read these documentation if we merge them to
> the kernel source tree.

There are two distinct problems here:

1) Documentation so developers who know C but not English have an easier time
working with the kernel. (Again, if you translate it, send it to me and I'll
put it on the web. After OLS, though. :)

2) Some kind of "language X patch maintainer", a bilingual person who can
accept patches from people who don't speak English, submit them to the
mailing list, and pass comments back and forth until issues with the patch
are resolved. So there could be a chinese patch maintainer, a spanish patch
maintainer, etc.

> TripleX

Rob
--
"One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code."
- Ken Thompson.
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Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jun 22, 2007 at 03:11:45PM -0400, Rob Landley wrote:
>On Friday 22 June 2007 13:02:26 Linus Torvalds wrote:
>> In fact, I suspect pretty much any documentation (whether technical or
>> about processes and/or style) makes sense to have translated if the energy
>> and ability to do that exists. I suspect the "policies and processes"
>> kinds of docs make _more_ sense to translate initially, simply because
>> they are approachable on their own - but I certainly would never
>> discourage anybody from translating anything at all.
>>
>> That said, I don't think that merging the result into the standard kernel
>> makes sense - like it or not, right now English ends up being required
>> to be part of actually getting things into the "standard" kernel, and as
>> such, at _some_ point there has to be a connection point that switches
>> over to English, and trying to make the translations be an in-kernel thing
>> is thus kind of pointless.
>>
>> But as part of some "documentation site", it makes 100% sense.
>
>Ok, I've got some documentation site, specifically http://kernel.org/doc (and
>I'll be completely redoing it as soon as I've recovered from my recent laptop
>crash and OLS).
>
>Send me translations (preferably in HTML format), and I'll put 'em up. (I've
>already got the one that started this thread.)
>
>Thanks,
>

Please also send a copy of HTML format to me, I will put them to
http://www.kerneltravel.net (A Chinese website about Linux kernel).

Thanks!


WANG Cong
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Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO [ In reply to ]
> Code merged in-tree has to be reviewed by relevant maintainers. This
> is not. For in-tree code, hackers are expected to fix whatever they
> break. You can't realisticaly expect me updating HOWTO to update
> translations as well.

Documents need to be dated anyway, and preferably give a last review
date. I did that with the watchdogs and was hoping (ha!) that the rest of
the world would eagerly follow suit ;)

If you've got dates the rest follows

Alan
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Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO [ In reply to ]
On 06/24/2007 06:34 PM, Alan Cox wrote:

> If you've got dates the rest follows

That's why they invented birth control.

CNR,
Rene

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Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO [ In reply to ]
Hi!

> And sometimes maybe the issue isn't even just about straight translations,
> but also perhaps about explaining cultural differences that aren't
> mentioned at all in the documentation, just because people in the west end
> up taking certain things for granted and it doesn't "need" documenting..

Actually docs of cultural differences would be useful even for western
people.

--
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html
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Re: [PATCH] Chinese translation of Documentation/HOWTO [ In reply to ]
On Thursday 28 June 2007 13:53:17 Pavel Machek wrote:
> Hi!
>
> > And sometimes maybe the issue isn't even just about straight
> > translations, but also perhaps about explaining cultural differences that
> > aren't mentioned at all in the documentation, just because people in the
> > west end up taking certain things for granted and it doesn't "need"
> > documenting..
>
> Actually docs of cultural differences would be useful even for western
> people.

I'm working on it. After OLS...

Rob
--
"One of my most productive days was throwing away 1000 lines of code."
- Ken Thompson.
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