Mailing List Archive

On Sat, 2009-04-11 at 17:17 -0400, Ben Gelb wrote:
> Perhaps this isn't the perfect forum for this question since its not
> really a software question, but I can't really think of any other. So
> sorry in advance if people find this to be "off topic."
>
> I'm interested in accessing the "encoded stream output interface" on
> the CX23416 (not the MCU/PCI interface!) and using it to drive some
> other digital logic (homebrew DVB-S transmitter).
>
> >From the CX23416 datasheet, it looks like I can just stream a TS out
> of this output port.

AFAIK, the CX23416 firmware does not produce a TS; just a PS, an MPEG 1
Stream, or PES's of various types.

I'm unsure about the CX23417's ability to produce a TS (I doubt it), but
it certainly has an output port of some sort, as it doesn't have a PCI
interface.

I know that the CX23418 firmware can produce a TS; the Linux cx18 driver
can tell the chip to do just that. The publicly available datasheet
also says that MPEG output can be supported on a 1-bit serial peripheral
interface. (Note, the linux cx18 driver doesn't configure that output
port; the driver only sets up MPEG streams to come the PCI bus.)



> Does anybody know if this port is physically accessible on any of the
> common capture cards?

I have no idea.

The ones you'd have the best shot at are cards with a CX23417. That
chip doesn't have a PCI interface. It has to clock the MPEG stream out
to a PCI bridge chip, so the MPEG stream should be accessable. Of
course, I have no idea if the CX23417 produces an MPEG TS. You'll have
to check the linux drivers that actually support boards with that chip
to try and get an idea.


> It's a bit unfortunate that the CX23416 is a BGA
> package, since it makes it hard (not really possible) to tack on
> wires.

Also the pinouts aren't publicly available.


> Any helpful suggestions appreciated.

1. If this is a one-off project, I'd just use a CX23418 based card to
capture an MPEG TS. Then I'd use a homebrew piece of hardware to shift
it out a serial or parallel interface. You're going to have to stuff
the TS with NULL packets to get proper DVB-S rate adaptation correct
anyway (right?). (BTW who's transponder are you going to use? ;) )

With that, I think you'll spend less time on guessing at software
commands to get the output port configured and started, and also less
time guessing at pins and frying boards.



2. If this is a serious project into which you'd like to invest a
non-trivial amount of $, then contact your regional Conexant sales rep.



Unless you get lucky figuring out the pins on a board with a CX23417,
anything other than 1 or 2 above is likely to be frustrating, and may
consume a lot of time and effort in the process.

Regards,
Andy


> Thanks,
> Ben



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Hi Andy -

I really appreciate this reply! Very helpful.

I did find a datasheet via Google for the CX23416 which had pinouts
and stuff, though it made no mention of loading firmware and stuff. I
gather that this datasheet is supposed to be locked up tight though
and maybe isn't supposed to be publicly downloadable - is it just as
restrictive for the CX23417 and CX23418?

I would love to see datasheets for either of those two.

Thanks,
Ben

On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 11:58 PM, Andy Walls <awalls@radix.net> wrote:
> On Sat, 2009-04-11 at 17:17 -0400, Ben Gelb wrote:
>> Perhaps this isn't the perfect forum for this question since its not
>> really a software question, but I can't really think of any other. So
>> sorry in advance if people find this to be "off topic."
>>
>> I'm interested in accessing the "encoded stream output interface" on
>> the CX23416 (not the MCU/PCI interface!) and using it to drive some
>> other digital logic (homebrew DVB-S transmitter).
>>
>> >From the CX23416 datasheet, it looks like I can just stream a TS out
>> of this output port.
>
> AFAIK, the CX23416 firmware does not produce a TS; just a PS, an MPEG 1
> Stream, or PES's of various types.
>
> I'm unsure about the CX23417's ability to produce a TS (I doubt it), but
> it certainly has an output port of some sort, as it doesn't have a PCI
> interface.
>
> I know that the CX23418 firmware can produce a TS; the Linux cx18 driver
> can tell the chip to do just that.  The publicly available datasheet
> also says that MPEG output can be supported on a 1-bit serial peripheral
> interface. (Note, the linux cx18 driver doesn't configure that output
> port; the driver only sets up MPEG streams to come the PCI bus.)
>
>
>
>> Does anybody know if this port is physically accessible on any of the
>> common capture cards?
>
> I have no idea.
>
> The ones you'd have the best shot at are cards with a CX23417.  That
> chip doesn't have a PCI interface.  It has to clock the MPEG stream out
> to a PCI bridge chip, so the MPEG stream should be accessable.  Of
> course, I have no idea if the CX23417 produces an MPEG TS.  You'll have
> to check the linux drivers that actually support boards with that chip
> to try and get an idea.
>
>
>> It's a bit unfortunate that the CX23416 is a BGA
>> package, since it makes it hard (not really possible) to tack on
>> wires.
>
> Also the pinouts aren't publicly available.
>
>
>> Any helpful suggestions appreciated.
>
> 1. If this is a one-off project, I'd just use a CX23418 based card to
> capture an MPEG TS.  Then I'd use a homebrew piece of hardware to shift
> it out a serial or parallel interface.  You're going to have to stuff
> the TS with NULL packets to get proper DVB-S rate adaptation correct
> anyway (right?).  (BTW who's transponder are you going to use? ;) )
>
> With that, I think you'll spend less time on guessing at software
> commands to get the output port configured and started, and also less
> time guessing at pins and frying boards.
>
>
>
> 2. If this is a serious project into which you'd like to invest a
> non-trivial amount of $, then contact your regional Conexant sales rep.
>
>
>
> Unless you get lucky figuring out the pins on a board with a CX23417,
> anything other than 1 or 2 above is likely to be frustrating, and may
> consume a lot of time and effort in the process.
>
> Regards,
> Andy
>
>
>> Thanks,
>> Ben
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> ivtv-devel mailing list
> ivtv-devel@ivtvdriver.org
> http://ivtvdriver.org/mailman/listinfo/ivtv-devel
>

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Ben,

Please don't top post. Thanks.

On Sun, 2009-04-12 at 01:00 -0400, Ben Gelb wrote:
> Hi Andy -
>
> I really appreciate this reply! Very helpful.

You're welcome.


> I did find a datasheet via Google for the CX23416 which had pinouts
> and stuff, though it made no mention of loading firmware and stuff. I
> gather that this datasheet is supposed to be locked up tight though
> and maybe isn't supposed to be publicly downloadable

That's correct.

I'm not trying to scare-monger or be too uptight here, but I
recommend you keep yourself beyond reproach legally; it makes life
easier.

For example:

1. The document should be marked Copyright Conexant, so only Conexant
has legal rights to make and distribute copies. Don't redistribute the
document, as you don't have those legal rights (and likely don't have a
legal right to have the copy in your possession), under US law at least.

2. The document should be marked Conexant Proprietary as well. I'm not
sure of US law in this area, but I suspect dissemination of company
proprietary information is something for which a compnay can elect to
bring suit: another reason not to redistribute copies.




> - is it just as
> restrictive for the CX23417 and CX23418?

Yes.


> I would love to see datasheets for either of those two.

You can contact Conexant about buying an EVK, which should come with a
reference board, and datasheets, and likely a legal agreement to sign.
The price may likely not be realistic for a hobbyist or school project
though.

Regards,
Andy


> Thanks,
> Ben
>
> On Sat, Apr 11, 2009 at 11:58 PM, Andy Walls <awalls@radix.net> wrote:
> > On Sat, 2009-04-11 at 17:17 -0400, Ben Gelb wrote:
> >> Perhaps this isn't the perfect forum for this question since its not
> >> really a software question, but I can't really think of any other. So
> >> sorry in advance if people find this to be "off topic."
> >>
> >> I'm interested in accessing the "encoded stream output interface" on
> >> the CX23416 (not the MCU/PCI interface!) and using it to drive some
> >> other digital logic (homebrew DVB-S transmitter).
> >>
> >> >From the CX23416 datasheet, it looks like I can just stream a TS out
> >> of this output port.
> >
> > AFAIK, the CX23416 firmware does not produce a TS; just a PS, an MPEG 1
> > Stream, or PES's of various types.
> >
> > I'm unsure about the CX23417's ability to produce a TS (I doubt it), but
> > it certainly has an output port of some sort, as it doesn't have a PCI
> > interface.
> >
> > I know that the CX23418 firmware can produce a TS; the Linux cx18 driver
> > can tell the chip to do just that. The publicly available datasheet
> > also says that MPEG output can be supported on a 1-bit serial peripheral
> > interface. (Note, the linux cx18 driver doesn't configure that output
> > port; the driver only sets up MPEG streams to come the PCI bus.)
> >
> >
> >
> >> Does anybody know if this port is physically accessible on any of the
> >> common capture cards?
> >
> > I have no idea.
> >
> > The ones you'd have the best shot at are cards with a CX23417. That
> > chip doesn't have a PCI interface. It has to clock the MPEG stream out
> > to a PCI bridge chip, so the MPEG stream should be accessable. Of
> > course, I have no idea if the CX23417 produces an MPEG TS. You'll have
> > to check the linux drivers that actually support boards with that chip
> > to try and get an idea.
> >
> >
> >> It's a bit unfortunate that the CX23416 is a BGA
> >> package, since it makes it hard (not really possible) to tack on
> >> wires.
> >
> > Also the pinouts aren't publicly available.
> >
> >
> >> Any helpful suggestions appreciated.
> >
> > 1. If this is a one-off project, I'd just use a CX23418 based card to
> > capture an MPEG TS. Then I'd use a homebrew piece of hardware to shift
> > it out a serial or parallel interface. You're going to have to stuff
> > the TS with NULL packets to get proper DVB-S rate adaptation correct
> > anyway (right?). (BTW who's transponder are you going to use? ;) )
> >
> > With that, I think you'll spend less time on guessing at software
> > commands to get the output port configured and started, and also less
> > time guessing at pins and frying boards.
> >
> >
> >
> > 2. If this is a serious project into which you'd like to invest a
> > non-trivial amount of $, then contact your regional Conexant sales rep.
> >
> >
> >
> > Unless you get lucky figuring out the pins on a board with a CX23417,
> > anything other than 1 or 2 above is likely to be frustrating, and may
> > consume a lot of time and effort in the process.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Andy
> >
> >
> >> Thanks,
> >> Ben
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > ivtv-devel mailing list
> > ivtv-devel@ivtvdriver.org
> > http://ivtvdriver.org/mailman/listinfo/ivtv-devel
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> ivtv-devel mailing list
> ivtv-devel@ivtvdriver.org
> http://ivtvdriver.org/mailman/listinfo/ivtv-devel
>


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Hello everybody,

>
> > I did find a datasheet via Google for the CX23416
> which had pinouts
> > and stuff, though it made no mention of loading
> firmware and stuff. I
> > gather that this datasheet is supposed to be locked up
> tight though
> > and maybe isn't supposed to be publicly downloadable
>
> That's correct.
>
> I'm not trying to scare-monger or be too uptight here, but
> I
> recommend you keep yourself beyond reproach legally; it
> makes life
> easier.
>
> For example:
>
> 1. The document should be marked Copyright Conexant, so
> only Conexant
> has legal rights to make and distribute copies.  Don't
> redistribute the
> document, as you don't have those legal rights (and likely
> don't have a
> legal right to have the copy in your possession), under US
> law at least.


My understanding of US copyright law is that
copyright does not preclude distribution of materials.
It is a violation to produce verbatim copies of a document (or parts
of the documents) if it bares a copyright statement, but content (or information in the printed material) is not protected by the copyright law.
In other words, retyping the document and chaning the font, spacing, layout, telling someone, etc without changing the content of the document, is enough not to violate the copyright rights. copyright
forbids production of verbatim copies only. So, audio/video piracy
is a crime againts copyright, but if you sing the same song yourself -- it is not. Even if you use the same instruments and
musical notes, your voice is different and it is different enough.
Same for printed materials.

I agree, that usually it is a big job to prepare a document for
distribution as all the diagrams have to be redone also.

So yes, never distribute copies, the rest is not covered
by the law.

ZF




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----- "Z F" <mail4me9999@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > 1. The document should be marked Copyright Conexant, so
> > only Conexant
> > has legal rights to make and distribute copies.  Don't
> > redistribute the
> > document, as you don't have those legal rights (and likely
> > don't have a
> > legal right to have the copy in your possession), under US
> > law at least.
>
> My understanding of US copyright law is that
> copyright does not preclude distribution of materials.

That much is true. If have a copy of a copyrighted item *made by someone
authorized to make such copies*, then I can dispose of that physical item
in any way I see fit, as long as I don't keep (wait for it) a copy. :-)

> It is a violation to produce verbatim copies of a document (or parts
> of the documents) if it bares a copyright statement, but content (or
> information in the printed material) is not protected by the copyright
> law.

Here, though, you're wrong.

> In other words, retyping the document and chaning the font, spacing,
> layout, telling someone, etc without changing the content of the
> document, is enough not to violate the copyright rights. copyright
> forbids production of verbatim copies only.

Nope; that's not true. Copyright inheres in the material itself, not it's
presentation (though some people say a separate copyright inheres in that
layout -- and that you could, for example, be taken to task for lifting
someone's cool layout to use with your own text and pictures).

> So, audio/video piracy
> is a crime againts copyright, but if you sing the same song yourself
> -- it is not.

Musical performance is a special case, and you can't analogize it back
to copyright. And indeed, if you *commercially* perform that song, then
someone has to pay ASCAP or BMI for the privilege, and if you *record*
it, then you have to pay the publishing company.

> Even if you use the same instruments and
> musical notes, your voice is different and it is different enough.
> Same for printed materials.

See above about "nope".

> So yes, never distribute copies, the rest is not covered
> by the law.

I am not a lawyer, but aparently I've been playing one on the net
longer than you. :-)

All these things said, "Conexant Proprietary" is a restraint on *those who
have the document 'legally', by virtue of their employment or a contract.

The law there is trade secret law, and it's pretty clear: the person who
releases it is in trouble with their employer -- because trade secrets are
absolute; once it's out, it's not a secret anymore -- but *you* are not in
trouble for having them, no matter how you got them, although you could be
compelled to testify in the case where the person who leaked them got sued.


Cheers,
-- jra
--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274

Start a man a fire, and he'll be warm all night.
Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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----- "Andy Walls" <awalls@radix.net> wrote:
> Thanks for your responses.
>
> But according to US Code Title 17 Chapter 1, Section 106,
> "distribution to the public" is also an exclusive right:
>
> http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#106
>
> (pursuant to amending sections, blah blah blah.)
>
> So you can't dispose of it *any* way you see fit. I suppose you can
> give your copyrighted item to a "non-public" recipient, as long as
> you don't keep a copy.
>
> Wow, playing lawyer involves way too much thought. :)

Yeah, I know; right? :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine

So yeah, you really can. The first sentence of 109 is:

> Notwithstanding the provisions of section 106(3), the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under this title, or any person authorized by such owner, is entitled, without the authority of the copyright owner, to sell or otherwise dispose of the possession of that copy or phonorecord.

and therefore specifically overrules that.

Cheers,
-- jra

--
Jay R. Ashworth Baylink jra@baylink.com
Designer The Things I Think RFC 2100
Ashworth & Associates http://baylink.pitas.com '87 e24
St Petersburg FL USA http://photo.imageinc.us +1 727 647 1274

Start a man a fire, and he'll be warm all night.
Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

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On Sun, 2009-04-12 at 16:18 -0400, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> ----- "Z F" <mail4me9999@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > 1. The document should be marked Copyright Conexant, so
> > > only Conexant
> > > has legal rights to make and distribute copies. Don't
> > > redistribute the
> > > document, as you don't have those legal rights (and likely
> > > don't have a
> > > legal right to have the copy in your possession), under US
> > > law at least.
> >
> > My understanding of US copyright law is that
> > copyright does not preclude distribution of materials.
>
> That much is true. If have a copy of a copyrighted item *made by someone
> authorized to make such copies*, then I can dispose of that physical item
> in any way I see fit, as long as I don't keep (wait for it) a copy. :-)

Jay,

Thanks for your responses.

But according to US Code Title 17 Chapter 1, Section 106, "distribution
to the public" is also an exclusive right:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#106

(pursuant to amending sections, blah blah blah.)

So you can't dispose of it *any* way you see fit. I suppose you can
give your copyrighted item to a "non-public" recipient, as long as you
don't keep a copy.

Wow, playing lawyer involves way too much thought. :)

[snip]

> I am not a lawyer, but aparently I've been playing one on the net
> longer than you. :-)

:)


Regards,
Andy


> Cheers,
> -- jra


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On Sun, 2009-04-12 at 18:33 -0400, Andy Walls wrote:
> On Sun, 2009-04-12 at 16:18 -0400, Jay R. Ashworth wrote:
> > ----- "Z F" <mail4me9999@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > 1. The document should be marked Copyright Conexant, so
> > > > only Conexant
> > > > has legal rights to make and distribute copies. Don't
> > > > redistribute the
> > > > document, as you don't have those legal rights (and likely
> > > > don't have a
> > > > legal right to have the copy in your possession), under US
> > > > law at least.
> > >
> > > My understanding of US copyright law is that
> > > copyright does not preclude distribution of materials.
> >
> > That much is true. If have a copy of a copyrighted item *made by someone
> > authorized to make such copies*, then I can dispose of that physical item
> > in any way I see fit, as long as I don't keep (wait for it) a copy. :-)
>
> Jay,
>
> Thanks for your responses.
>
> But according to US Code Title 17 Chapter 1, Section 106, "distribution
> to the public" is also an exclusive right:
>
> http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#106
>
> (pursuant to amending sections, blah blah blah.)
>
> So you can't dispose of it *any* way you see fit. I suppose you can
> give your copyrighted item to a "non-public" recipient, as long as you
> don't keep a copy.

Ah crud. I'm wrong again. Section 109 says you can, if it is a legally
owned copy in your possession.

> Wow, playing lawyer involves way too much thought. :)

I'm going to stop now.

Regards,
Andy


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