Mailing List Archive

Reason for PDF Format
The whole idea of going to a PDF file is to take advantage of the additional
features that are available through Adobe Acrobat, namely:
- Improved illustrations
- Improved type-setting: stuff that comes out of TeX isn't the best quality

in my opinon. It isn't easy to read on-line. Maybe printed out it's OK,
but
I want an easy to read online, top quality, book.
- You get a lot of other additional, instructional features in Adobe Acrobat

you simply won't get by producing a PDF via sgml translators
(color illustrations, audio, video, hypertext within the document and
hypertext links to the Internet).

By producing a PDF by translating from sgml, you simply miss the whole point of
producing a PDF in the first place.

Since the Adobe Acrobat Reader is free, it won't cost the user anything to get
top-quality documentation.

Jeffrey Thompson

>
> To: Roger Williams <roger@coelacanth.com> cc: gpg-list <g10@net.lut.ac.uk>
> Subject: Re: Manual Contact
> > I think that this is only true if you assume that PDF == Windows. If
> > you instead start with good Postscript code, you'll end up with a good
> > PDF. PDF's flate compression will normally result in PDFs that are
> > *smaller* than the text original.
> >
> > For example, we write our technical documents in LaTeX (with LyX), but
> > usually have to convert them to PDF for distribution to our customers.
> > A typical 100-page specification might be a 400K TeX file, which
> > results in a 550K PS file, which gets converted (by pstill or ps2pdf)
> > to a 155K PDF (compared to 95K for the gzipped TeX file).
> > I think that the ability to distribute files in multiple formats is a
> > *good* thing -- and smgltools is a good way to do this -- but don't
> > knock PDFs on the basis of size or the need for Windoze or Adobe
> > Distiller, as neither of these assumptions is accurate.
> I stand corrected. :) I think that if we can produce an sgml version and
> then a postscript version that we can then pop out a pdf version.
> Everyone is then happy.
> From,
> Matthew M. Copeland
Re: Reason for PDF Format [ In reply to ]
In message <4.1.19990129110556.009b79b0@thompsonic.com>, Jeffrey Thompson write
s:
>The whole idea of going to a PDF file is to take advantage of the additional
>features that are available through Adobe Acrobat, namely:

A bunch of gui-based featurebloated crap.

If I can't read the documentation through a text-only link, I won't read
it. At best, I'll convert it to a text-based format, more likely I'll
just experiment with the program until it does what I want.

I'm sure I'm not the only one, especially on a project as hackerish as
this.

-Robin, who uses lynx as his web browser almost exclusively (can't do
Java in lynx; Java sucks, but sometimes people's whole pages are written
in it).
Re: Reason for PDF Format [ In reply to ]
Jeffrey Thompson <jeffrey@thompsonic.com> writes:

> Since the Adobe Acrobat Reader is free, it won't cost the user anything to get
> top-quality documentation.

[Taking the RMS hat]

NO IT IS NOT FREE! You don't have to spend money for it, that's all.


Free Software is about freedom and not price.


[Back on technical issues]

And PDF is a ugly format - I can't load it into my editor nor can I
browse it without starting X and I don't want to do this while I am
working (say) on a train. Plain text is more easy to read and that is
why people who are interested in information use lynx to browse
through HTML informations.

If you like PDF you can create it from Postscript - no problem. But
SGML is the modern way to structure information and so we should do it
and use the Docbook DTD which is well designed for technical
applications.

I'd prefer not to continue with that thread - I remember the ugly
thread about which name should be used for GnuPG; much discussion
about a nit. There are much more important things to do; e.g. I have
to rewrite the trust verification code after a long discussion with
Thomas, although I don't see that the PGP solution is the Right Thing (tm)
but I do it anyway to please the pgp users.

Maybe it is time to setup a user mailing list.


Werner


p.s.
I did not follow the whole thread so If I have missed an important
point, please tell me.
Re: Reason for PDF Format [ In reply to ]
>>>>> Jeffrey Thompson <jeffrey@thompsonic.com> writes:

> The whole idea of going to a PDF file is to take advantage of the
> additional features that are available through Adobe Acrobat...

But the Acrobat tools are only used to *convert* ("distill") a
Postscript document produced by some other application. And you don't
actually have to use *any* of Adobe's tools to produce PDFs...

> - Improved illustrations

> - Improved type-setting: stuff that comes out of TeX isn't the
> best quality...

Rubbish. We produce our glossy illustrated user manuals with LaTeX,
using the same Type1 fonts and high-quality drawings and photographs
that we used in Interleaf or Framemaker. (Many other people -- Oxford
University Press, say -- use it as a document publishing tool, too.)
We then convert the resulting Postscript to fancy hyperlinked PDF
documents for distribution as on-line documentation with our products.

As with any other DTP application, the person that produces the
document is responsible for the quality of the output.

We haven't used SGML very much, but I had the impression that SGML was
designed to support mixed embedded media, such as images, video, and
sound. If so, some SMGL application or another should be able to
produce any kind of fancy document you want.

I defend PDF as a useful distribution format. But I don't confuse the
output format with the tools used to produce the document; and I don't
see any reason that SGML can't be used to produce documents that can
be easily converted into fancy singing, dancing PDF files.

Of course, I have now taken this thread completely off topic...

--
Roger Williams finger me for my PGP public key
Coelacanth Engineering Inc consulting & turnkey product development
Middleborough, Massachusetts wireless * datacomm * DSP * ATE
tel +1 508 947-5585 * fax +1 508 861-0278 * http://www.coelacanth.com/
Re: Reason for PDF Format [ In reply to ]
Jeffrey Thompson writes:
The whole idea of going to a PDF file is to take advantage of the additional
features that are available through Adobe Acrobat, namely:
[...]
By producing a PDF by translating from sgml, you simply miss the
whole point of producing a PDF in the first place.
Since the Adobe Acrobat Reader is free, it won't cost the user
anything to get top-quality documentation.

The reader is free. But the PDF creator is not.

Creating PDF documentation for GNU software is like selling pork rinds
at a vegan festival.

rone
--
Ron Echeverri Numerical Aerospace Simulation Facility
DSS/Usenet Administrator NASA Ames Research Center
Sterling Software Mountain View, CA
<rone@nas.nasa.gov> x42771
Re: Reason for PDF Format [ In reply to ]
On Fri, Jan 29, 1999 at 12:45:01PM -0500, Robin Lee Powell wrote:
> In message <4.1.19990129110556.009b79b0@thompsonic.com>, Jeffrey Thompson write
> s:
> >The whole idea of going to a PDF file is to take advantage of the additional
> >features that are available through Adobe Acrobat, namely:
>
> A bunch of gui-based featurebloated crap.
>
> If I can't read the documentation through a text-only link, I won't read
> it. At best, I'll convert it to a text-based format, more likely I'll
> just experiment with the program until it does what I want.
>
> I'm sure I'm not the only one, especially on a project as hackerish as
> this.

I'd second this idea. I believe the trend is to write docs in SGML
and output it to several different formats, including HTML, PDF, and
text.
Re: Reason for PDF Format [ In reply to ]
Ron Echeverri <rone@B1FF.nas.nasa.gov> writes:

> The reader is free. But the PDF creator is not.

Yes, it is. pdftex and pdflatex are free and work reasonably well. The
Computer Modern PostScript fonts are freely available, and it's possible
to get free Times and Helvetica fonts without too much difficulty (plus
they're built into most printers).

It used to be that you had to have a distiller from Adobe, but you don't
any more if you can work in TeX and LaTeX with a somewhat restricted set
of available fonts. The PDF hyperlink support isn't complete yet, but
it's coming along.

--
Russ Allbery (rra@stanford.edu) <URL:http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/>
Re: Reason for PDF Format [ In reply to ]
Werner Koch <wk@isil.d.shuttle.de> writes:

> SGML is the modern way to structure information and so we should do it
> and use the Docbook DTD which is well designed for technical

Is there any good introduction for document writers on how to start
with SGML and Docbook?

--
Until the next mail...,
Stefan.
Re: Reason for PDF Format [ In reply to ]
Stefan Nobis <snobis@usa.net> writes:

> Is there any good introduction for document writers on how to start
> with SGML and Docbook?

http://www.ora.com/davenport/index.html

or browse through www.gnome.org - Gnome dox are based on DocBook
Re: Reason for PDF Format [ In reply to ]
In message <36B20A32.51D2D0C6@coelacanth.com>, Roger Williams writes:
>>>>>> Jeffrey Thompson <jeffrey@thompsonic.com> writes:
>
> > The whole idea of going to a PDF file is to take advantage of the
> > additional features that are available through Adobe Acrobat...
>
>But the Acrobat tools are only used to *convert* ("distill") a
>Postscript document produced by some other application. And you don't
>actually have to use *any* of Adobe's tools to produce PDFs...
>
> > - Improved illustrations
>
> > - Improved type-setting: stuff that comes out of TeX isn't the
> > best quality...
>
>Rubbish. We produce our glossy illustrated user manuals with LaTeX,
>using the same Type1 fonts and high-quality drawings and photographs
>that we used in Interleaf or Framemaker.

LaTeX, the only _real_ markup langugage. :-)

-Robin

--
My Home Page (Too Much Information!):http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rlpowell/
Spice is the variety of life. --- Fremen Folk Saying
Re: Reason for PDF Format [ In reply to ]
On 99.02.01 Robin Lee Powell pressed the following keys:

> >Rubbish. We produce our glossy illustrated user manuals with LaTeX,
> >using the same Type1 fonts and high-quality drawings and photographs
> >that we used in Interleaf or Framemaker.
>
> LaTeX, the only _real_ markup langugage. :-)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Argh... The girl I know that studies literature asked if she uses LaTeX for
her works answered ,,Phew! LaTeX is for dummies, I use PlainTeX'' ;)

Reptile

--
----------------[Gadzinka]--[ http://reptile.eu.org/ ]--<Cyber Service>--
--[.We all had delusions in our head, we all had our minds made up]-------
--[.for us, we had to believe in something. So we did.]-------------------
----------------------------------------------------[Alanis Morissette]--
Re: Reason for PDF Format [ In reply to ]
In message <19990201164622.A5195@reptile.eu.org>, Robert Richard George 'reptil
e' Wal writes:
>On 99.02.01 Robin Lee Powell pressed the following keys:
>
>> >Rubbish. We produce our glossy illustrated user manuals with LaTeX,
>> >using the same Type1 fonts and high-quality drawings and photographs
>> >that we used in Interleaf or Framemaker.
>>
>> LaTeX, the only _real_ markup langugage. :-)
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Argh... The girl I know that studies literature asked if she uses LaTeX for
>her works answered ,,Phew! LaTeX is for dummies, I use PlainTeX'' ;)

Oh. Well, that's fair enough, actually.

-Robin

--
My Home Page (Too Much Information!):http://www.csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~rlpowell/
Spice is the variety of life. --- Fremen Folk Saying
Re: Reason for PDF Format [ In reply to ]
Werner Koch wrote:
> > Is there any good introduction for document writers on how to start
> > with SGML and Docbook?
>
> http://www.ora.com/davenport/index.html
>
> or browse through www.gnome.org - Gnome dox are based on DocBook

The FreeBSD project is changing their documentation DTD from LinuxDoc
to DocBook. There are some reference about it.


FreeBSD Documentation Project Primer for New Contributors:
http://www.freebsd.org/~nik/primer/
Sample source:
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/doc/en/handbook/
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/doc/share/sgml/
Sample HTML rendering:
http://www.freebsd.org/~nik/handbook/split/
DocBook Documentation:
http://www.freebsd.org/~wosch/docbook/
SGML & XML: (useful links)
http://nwalsh.com/sgml/index.html


--
Jun Kuriyama // kuriyama@sky.rim.or.jp
// kuriyama@FreeBSD.ORG
Re: Reason for PDF Format [ In reply to ]
Stefan Nobis :
------------------------------------------------------------

> Is there any good introduction for document writers on how to start
> with SGML and Docbook?

what about the SGML-Howto ? It was a good starting point --- at least
for me...

Stefan

--
Sie haben den Mauszeiger bewegt. Starten Sie das System neu,
um die Ă„nderung wirksam werden zu lassen...