Mailing List Archive

Gentoo vmware/virtualbox/qemu images
Hi there,

At the OpenExpo here in Zurich I got many requests for a vmware image of
Gentoo. What do you think of providing a "live image" in addition to the
minimal- and live-cd's?

Cheers,
Tiziano


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Re: Gentoo vmware/virtualbox/qemu images [ In reply to ]
On Fri, 2007-09-21 at 19:01 +0200, Tiziano Müller wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> At the OpenExpo here in Zurich I got many requests for a vmware image of
> Gentoo. What do you think of providing a "live image" in addition to the
> minimal- and live-cd's?

Bug #115902

If you can answer the questions in that bug sufficiently, feel free to
revisit this. Also, please contact the team that would likely be doing
all of the work to get this sort of thing done prior to bringing up such
a proposal, especially when there's already a bug report open for
it. ;]

We now have a wonderful x86 Release Coordinator, which was one of the
blockers in doing a VMware image before. Of course, there's always the
"what is Gentoo" question to determine what we would put in a VM.

I don't get this obsession with a "live image" when someone can boot the
LiveCD/LiveDVD on real hardware *or* in VMware. They can even boot the
ISO directly and not even have to burn to disk, so people without a DVD
burner can still use the LiveDVD. So exactly what problem are we trying
to solve with creating an image that cannot be solved with our current
media? Where do you plan on storing such a large image? What other
media are you planning on us removing to support it?

(By the way, I am planning on adding support for creating VMware images
to catalyst, so this will eventually be something much easier for us in
Release Engineering...)

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation
Re: Gentoo vmware/virtualbox/qemu images [ In reply to ]
Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-09-21 at 19:01 +0200, Tiziano Müller wrote:
>> Hi there,
>>
>> At the OpenExpo here in Zurich I got many requests for a vmware image of
>> Gentoo. What do you think of providing a "live image" in addition to the
>> minimal- and live-cd's?
>
> Bug #115902
>
> If you can answer the questions in that bug sufficiently, feel free to
> revisit this. Also, please contact the team that would likely be doing
> all of the work to get this sort of thing done prior to bringing up such
> a proposal, especially when there's already a bug report open for
> it. ;]
>
> We now have a wonderful x86 Release Coordinator, which was one of the
> blockers in doing a VMware image before. Of course, there's always the
> "what is Gentoo" question to determine what we would put in a VM.
>
> I don't get this obsession with a "live image" when someone can boot the
> LiveCD/LiveDVD on real hardware *or* in VMware. They can even boot the
> ISO directly and not even have to burn to disk, so people without a DVD
> burner can still use the LiveDVD. So exactly what problem are we trying
> to solve with creating an image that cannot be solved with our current
> media? Where do you plan on storing such a large image? What other
> media are you planning on us removing to support it?
>
> (By the way, I am planning on adding support for creating VMware images
> to catalyst, so this will eventually be something much easier for us in
> Release Engineering...)
>
The only advantage I see is less than technical people(read windows/osx
users) who don't know/are afraid of ISOs and such, yet know how to
operate vmware-player. Were we to consider "Enterprise Gentoo" we'd
certainly want to offer it to people interested in gentoo. Think of it
more as a marketing tool.

As for what to put on it, liveDVD is the only sane choice. That said;
It would be awsome if when catalyst can build vmware images, to make a
minimal one as well, so groups(maybe xfce4, kde, ....) can make their
own demos based on that.

--
=======================================================
Mike Doty kingtaco -at- gentoo.org
Gentoo Infrastructure
Gentoo/AMD64 Strategic Lead
GPG: E1A5 1C9C 93FE F430 C1D6 F2AF 806B A2E4 19F4 AE05
=======================================================
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Re: Re: Gentoo vmware/virtualbox/qemu images [ In reply to ]
On Sat, 2007-09-22 at 07:19 +0100, Steve Long wrote:
> This guy: http://gentoovm.blogspot.com/ works for vmware according to his
> first post here: http://www.vmwhere.net/category/gentoo/ (where he makes
> clear he has nothing to do with releng, and that his work is in no way to
> be seen as official.) He might be a good guy to rope in? He seems to be
> having trouble with hosting and hasn't released since 2006.0 so he'd most
> likely welcome the approach, imo.

He was on the bug. Also, people seem to forget that we would also very
likely have an issue with hosting, too. We do not have unlimited space
on our community-donated mirrors. It has always been a constant
struggle within Release Engineering to keep our sizes down. This is one
of the reasons that we've not undertaken such a task. To be honest,
once I get support in catalyst, it'll be much more likely that I'll end
up creating these, since I'll be able to share the catalyst caches and
such between LiveDVD and VM image builds, so it'll take almost no time
to produce the builds.

Currently, Release Engineering is quite understaffed. We have lost a
few release coordinators between the last release and now. The arch
teams are picking up the slack and getting people to fill the roles, but
they have to be trained, which means more time spent training and less
time spent working, which delays a release fairly significantly. I have
no intentions on pulling in more media for us to support when we're
having difficulty supporting what we have now. That's just an
unfortunate fact of life.

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation
Re: Re: Gentoo vmware/virtualbox/qemu images [ In reply to ]
Chris,

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> Currently, Release Engineering is quite understaffed. We have lost a
> few release coordinators between the last release and now. The arch
> teams are picking up the slack and getting people to fill the roles, but
> they have to be trained, which means more time spent training and less
> time spent working, which delays a release fairly significantly.

Are you still looking for staff ? What roles/positions/work needs doing
most ?

Are you aware that http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/
lists no staffing needs for release engineering ?

Where do I volunteer and what amount of time-investment can I expect ?

Ramon



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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: Re: Gentoo vmware/virtualbox/qemu images [ In reply to ]
On Mon, 2007-09-24 at 13:54 +0200, Ramon van Alteren wrote:
> > Currently, Release Engineering is quite understaffed. We have lost a
> > few release coordinators between the last release and now. The arch
> > teams are picking up the slack and getting people to fill the roles, but
> > they have to be trained, which means more time spent training and less
> > time spent working, which delays a release fairly significantly.
>
> Are you still looking for staff ? What roles/positions/work needs doing
> most ?

Release Engineering is almost always looking for staff. The primary
need is architecture release coordinators for the architectures which
have lost them. Anyone considering joining Release Engineering should
be capable of being an ebuild developer, if they're not already, as most
issues are in ebuild code. Familiarity with catalyst and genkernel is a
requirement. Strong python and bash skills are preferred.

> Are you aware that http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/staffing-needs/
> lists no staffing needs for release engineering ?

I am well aware. I have no intentions on asking our user pool for help
with this due to my own constraints. It has nothing to do with the
users themselves and everything to do with what we actually need. We
don't need people that we have to train, as that only takes time that we
already do not have to train the new person, compounding the problem
more than it helps. We don't really need people that are not on
architecture teams, because their work is representative of the team and
they need to work with the team in question. Unfortunately, this pretty
much leaves us pulling from our current developer pool.

> Where do I volunteer and what amount of time-investment can I expect ?

Well, first you would need to become a developer. I don't have time to
mentor someone myself, so you'd need to find a mentor and get yourself
into the developer pool. Aside that, you'd need to be able to use
catalyst and troubleshoot your own issues with it. I know that this
sounds really bad, but I don't mean it to be. It doesn't help me, at
all, if I have to teach someone. My familiarity with catalyst is such
that it is generally faster to do something myself than to teach someone
else to do it. Basically, we require people who are completely
self-motivated learners capable of reading code, understanding it, and
putting that new knowledge into practice without help.

The amount of time required can vary wildly, depending on the quality of
the tree for your architecture, just how crazy the architecture boot
sequence is, the speed of your hardware, etc. On average, I spend
anywhere from 20 to 40 hours a *week* during release times. I've spent
as little as 3 or 4 hours and as much as 60 hours. Also, Release
Engineering is one of the few places where deadlines are very important,
meaning you have to be able to actually commit to time lines and follow
through, on time. Of course, this makes Release Engineering one of the
more stressful jobs around Gentoo. Just ask anyone who has been hanging
around #gentoo-releng during a release... ;]

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation
Re: Gentoo vmware/virtualbox/qemu images [ In reply to ]
Mike Doty wrote:
>> I don't get this obsession with a "live image" when someone can boot the
>> LiveCD/LiveDVD on real hardware *or* in VMware. They can even boot the
>> ISO directly and not even have to burn to disk, so people without a DVD
>> burner can still use the LiveDVD. So exactly what problem are we trying
>> to solve with creating an image that cannot be solved with our current
>> media? Where do you plan on storing such a large image? What other
>> media are you planning on us removing to support it?
>>
>> (By the way, I am planning on adding support for creating VMware images
>> to catalyst, so this will eventually be something much easier for us in
>> Release Engineering...)
>>
> The only advantage I see is less than technical people(read windows/osx
> users) who don't know/are afraid of ISOs and such, yet know how to
> operate vmware-player. Were we to consider "Enterprise Gentoo" we'd
> certainly want to offer it to people interested in gentoo. Think of it
> more as a marketing tool.
>
> As for what to put on it, liveDVD is the only sane choice. That said;
> It would be awsome if when catalyst can build vmware images, to make a
> minimal one as well, so groups(maybe xfce4, kde, ....) can make their
> own demos based on that.
>
This guy: http://gentoovm.blogspot.com/ works for vmware according to his
first post here: http://www.vmwhere.net/category/gentoo/ (where he makes
clear he has nothing to do with releng, and that his work is in no way to
be seen as official.) He might be a good guy to rope in? He seems to be
having trouble with hosting and hasn't released since 2006.0 so he'd most
likely welcome the approach, imo.

Wrt to second use case (custom ones for groups) there's nothing stopping
someone doing that from a minimal iso right now afaict. (It's a lot easier
if you work in a partition, and make the image at the end for deployment.)


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gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: Re: Gentoo vmware/virtualbox/qemu images [ In reply to ]
Chris Gianelloni wrote:

> On Sat, 2007-09-22 at 07:19 +0100, Steve Long wrote:
>> This guy: http://gentoovm.blogspot.com/ works for vmware according to his
>> first post here: http://www.vmwhere.net/category/gentoo/ (where he makes
>> clear he has nothing to do with releng, and that his work is in no way to
>> be seen as official.) He might be a good guy to rope in? He seems to be
>> having trouble with hosting and hasn't released since 2006.0 so he'd most
>> likely welcome the approach, imo.
>
> He was on the bug. Also, people seem to forget that we would also very
> likely have an issue with hosting, too. We do not have unlimited space
> on our community-donated mirrors.
Yeah I hear that a lot from gentoo devs on irc. Funny thing is, whenever I
turn around and say "Oh there was someone the other day asking whether they
could donate CPU time and bandwidth," they suddenly lose all interest. I
have no idea why.

People don't feel good about donating to an email address.

> It has always been a constant
> struggle within Release Engineering to keep our sizes down. This is one
> of the reasons that we've not undertaken such a task. To be honest,
> once I get support in catalyst, it'll be much more likely that I'll end
> up creating these, since I'll be able to share the catalyst caches and
> such between LiveDVD and VM image builds, so it'll take almost no time
> to produce the builds.
>
So is it the time or the hosting requirement that's the overwhelming factor?
As users are clearly happy to step up and fill in the gaps (as that page
and the bug show.)


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