Mailing List Archive

Duncan wrote:
> joshua jackson <tsunam@gentoo.org> posted 46A0DE7B.6030009@gentoo.org,
> excerpted below, on Fri, 20 Jul 2007 09:10:35 -0700:
>
>> Honestly..this is not something to get picky over jakub. Upstream was
>> nice and actually came and politely asked us to change the defaults to
>> what most people would consider sane (all protocols by default). As I
>> think most people emerging pidgin..would like to use any protocol by
>> default..not go..hey I don't have yahoo, I should check my use flags.
>> Which obviously hasn't happened as users pop up in #pidgin to ask why
>> the heck there isn't a yahoo account available.
>
> [Dev-discussion, so kept posted here.]
>
> I've not seen this question come up yet, so I'll raise it.
>
> Shouldn't the question really depend on whether optional dependencies are
> pulled in by the protocols or not? If everything's pidgin internal, then
> if upstream wants all the protocols on as shipped, I think that's the
> sane thing to do.
>
> OTOH, if enabling those protocols pulls in all sorts of additional
> packages to support them, shipping with everything on just because it's
> possible is not the Gentoo way. That's what USE flags are for. If
> indeed additional dependencies are pulled in, IMO the USE flags should
> remain, and maybe someone needs to explain the Gentoo way to upstream.
>


++; from a user. I prefer to leave them off. However I can understand
the other sides point of view, too.
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Jakub Moc wrote:
> Petteri Räty napsal(a):
>> Or just do it via package.use in profiles until IUSE defaults are
>> implemented.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Petteri
>
> As noted before, they are implemented, just not allowed in the tree.
> Plus, what vapier said, this info belongs to the ebuilds, not to profiles.
>
> Wrt pidgin - seriously, what's the big issue here? Users can't use
> emerge -pv output and determine what they want, or? Will we bloat the
> profiles everytime someone forgets to enable a flag and goes complain
> upstream about a 'missing' feature?
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> !DSPAM:469f3b40137571336712104!
Honestly..this is not something to get picky over jakub. Upstream was
nice and actually came and politely asked us to change the defaults to
what most people would consider sane (all protocols by default). As I
think most people emerging pidgin..would like to use any protocol by
default..not go..hey I don't have yahoo, I should check my use flags.
Which obviously hasn't happened as users pop up in #pidgin to ask why
the heck there isn't a yahoo account available.

This should be a nothing change to do. Its also working with upstream
and maintaining some good relationships here..and or help improve them
in general. That should in fact you know...be part of our goals....to
improve communications between Gentoo and other projects.
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fire-eyes wrote:
> Duncan wrote:
> > OTOH, if enabling those protocols pulls in all sorts of additional
> > packages to support them, shipping with everything on just because
> > it's possible is not the Gentoo way. That's what USE flags are
> > for. If indeed additional dependencies are pulled in, IMO the USE
> > flags should remain, and maybe someone needs to explain the Gentoo
> > way to upstream.
>
> ++; from a user. I prefer to leave them off. However I can understand
> the other sides point of view, too.

I believe one of the main philosophies of Gentoo is to try to have an
app be as close to upstream as possible. I personally believe that
this means the we should try to enable enough USE flags by default that
it is roughly equivalent to running upstream's './configure' with no
arguments. USE flags then give the advanced user the ability to
disable those features normally on, or enable those features normally
off, but we want a freshly installed package by default to "just
work"[1] and to be "as close to upstream as possible"[2].

With this in mind, enabling most of the default protocols makes sense
to me.

[1]
http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=3&chap=1#doc_chap1

[2] looking for actual references to this, but couldn't find it...
I think it's _somewhere_ in the required new-developer reading...

--
Jim Ramsay
Gentoo/Linux Developer (rox,gkrellm)

It would seem there is a good support for a change to enable all
protocols by default. What will change this issue from a good thread
to an action on the package to implement these ideas?

Another suggestion brought to me by an upstream dev was that Pidgin is
configured to install all protocols by default. If the required
libraries for a protocol is missing, ie: gadu, zephyr, silc, bonjour,
then Pidgin builds/runs fine and that protocol isn't available for the
user to use. Not wanting to alienate those who use these protocols,
but they aren't very common to begin with, so this will only apply to
a small sample of users. So a warning could be put in the ewarn
saying that if you want there protos you have to install their
required libs.

I don't think this is a bad idea. I've seen a few packages do that
before. This way we don't pull in unwanted dependencies. This could
be coupled with the idea of negative USE flags, though nasty and
unwanted, I think like someone mentioned a bit earlier, they stand out
and are more effective when it comes to this type of situation
involving defaults.

Summary:

1. Switch all USE flags to negative USE flags.
2. Don't install deps for protocols (maybe still install SSL)
3. Put a message in the ewarn about missing libs for extra protos.

Once again, how does this thread move to action on the package? Can I
call "Question"? ;)

Thanks,
Eric
On 7/20/07, Jim Ramsay <lack@gentoo.org> wrote:
> fire-eyes wrote:
> > Duncan wrote:
> > > OTOH, if enabling those protocols pulls in all sorts of additional
> > > packages to support them, shipping with everything on just because
> > > it's possible is not the Gentoo way. That's what USE flags are
> > > for. If indeed additional dependencies are pulled in, IMO the USE
> > > flags should remain, and maybe someone needs to explain the Gentoo
> > > way to upstream.
> >
> > ++; from a user. I prefer to leave them off. However I can understand
> > the other sides point of view, too.
>
> I believe one of the main philosophies of Gentoo is to try to have an
> app be as close to upstream as possible. I personally believe that
> this means the we should try to enable enough USE flags by default that
> it is roughly equivalent to running upstream's './configure' with no
> arguments. USE flags then give the advanced user the ability to
> disable those features normally on, or enable those features normally
> off, but we want a freshly installed package by default to "just
> work"[1] and to be "as close to upstream as possible"[2].
>
> With this in mind, enabling most of the default protocols makes sense
> to me.
>
> [1]
> http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/devrel/handbook/handbook.xml?part=3&chap=1#doc_chap1
>
> [2] looking for actual references to this, but couldn't find it...
> I think it's _somewhere_ in the required new-developer reading...
>
> --
> Jim Ramsay
> Gentoo/Linux Developer (rox,gkrellm)
>
>


--
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--
"...indexable arrays, which may be thought of as functions whose
domains are isomorphic to contiguous subsets of the integers."
--Haskell 98 Library Report
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On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 14:20:06 -0400
"Eric Polino" <aluink@gmail.com> wrote:

> It would seem there is a good support for a change to enable all
> protocols by default. What will change this issue from a good thread
> to an action on the package to implement these ideas?

File a bug on bugs.gentoo.org about the issue. TBH, this shouldn't have
been on the list in the first place, as it's directly targeted at the
respective package maintainers, not the dev community in general.

Marius

--
Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub

In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.

On 7/20/07, Marius Mauch <genone@gentoo.org> wrote:
> On Fri, 20 Jul 2007 14:20:06 -0400
> "Eric Polino" <aluink@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > It would seem there is a good support for a change to enable all
> > protocols by default. What will change this issue from a good thread
> > to an action on the package to implement these ideas?
>
> File a bug on bugs.gentoo.org about the issue. TBH, this shouldn't have
> been on the list in the first place, as it's directly targeted at the
> respective package maintainers, not the dev community in general.

My apology, I will do so in the future.

> Marius
>
> --
> Public Key at http://www.genone.de/info/gpg-key.pub
>
> In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, 'Let there be
> Light.' And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better.
>
>


--
http://aluink.blogspot.com

--
"...indexable arrays, which may be thought of as functions whose
domains are isomorphic to contiguous subsets of the integers."
--Haskell 98 Library Report
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On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 00:02 -0400, Eric Polino wrote:
> > Someone mentioned just killing the USE flags and making them all hard
> > dependencies, however. I really hope that's not done if additional
> > dependencies are involved.
>
> I see your point, but how different would this be to any application
> that requires dependencies and you can't change the fact that they
> require them. For instance, any application that uses GTK+ requires
> GTK+ and there's nothing you can do about it. I don't care how much
> you strip down Firefox, you'll still need GTK+. The Pidgin team
> "sells" their application as having all these protocols so they should
> be there, at least out of the box.

Why is it configurable, at all, then?

If the pidgin team wants these protocols enabled by everyone, why make
them optional? I fully agree that the *defaults* should be sane, but if
upstream doesn't want people turning these things off, why give people a
switch? It's like putting out a big shiny red button that says "don't
press me" then complaining when people press it. ;P

Anyway, if nobody objects and nobody beats me to it, I'll add the USE
flags for the common protocols to package.use in the profiles. Now, the
real question is what should I enable?

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

On Fri, 2007-20-07 at 00:57 +0100, Olivier Crête wrote:
> On Thu, 2007-19-07 at 15:22 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > On Thu, 2007-07-19 at 16:02 -0600, Jim Ramsay wrote:
> > > I'm all for doing it now in the profile, but it's not my package.
> > > Perhaps someone from the net-im herd can make this decision?
> >
> > Well, as someone who spends a lot of time working on/with profiles, I
> > say go for it. Since these changes would only affect the one package
> > and wouldn't pull in any "strange" dependencies on people, we should
> > probably do it as high in the profile structure as possible (base?
> > default-linux?) so it hits the most users.
> >
> > I'd like to hear from net-im, as they're ultimately responsible, but I
> > don't really see the harm in doing it, so we probably should as it will
> > reduce headaches for our users.
>
> Talking with my net-im hat, I'd say go for it.. Except for silc and
> zephyr (which may or may not work very well) and should probably stay
> off.

Again with my net-im hat, I've removed the MSN use flag from
net-im/pidgin-2.0.2 (the latest version). The other protocols are rarely
used and have nasty dependencies and will stay as use flags. I consider
this discussion closed.

--
Olivier Crête
tester@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer

On Fri, 2007-20-07 at 14:40 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> Anyway, if nobody objects and nobody beats me to it, I'll add the USE
> flags for the common protocols to package.use in the profiles. Now, the
> real question is what should I enable?

All of the ones that have no major dependencies are enabled by default
and have been for a while... The other should really stay off by
default. I don't think adding it them to the profiles is wise..

--
Olivier Crête
tester@gentoo.org
Gentoo Developer

On Fri, 2007-07-20 at 22:57 +0100, Olivier Crête wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-20-07 at 14:40 -0700, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > Anyway, if nobody objects and nobody beats me to it, I'll add the USE
> > flags for the common protocols to package.use in the profiles. Now, the
> > real question is what should I enable?
>
> All of the ones that have no major dependencies are enabled by default
> and have been for a while... The other should really stay off by
> default. I don't think adding it them to the profiles is wise..

Cool. We're all done, then. Thanks.

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation

"Eric Polino" <aluink@gmail.com>:

> Would it be possible to have all the protocols for net-im/pidgin
> turned on by default. We often get people coming to #pidgin looking
> for help as to why they can't get MSN or some other protocol working.
> It most often is because they haven't enabled the given protocol USE
> flag.

Without doubting the decision made about the msn USE flag, here are
some quotes from a bug report:

"I am not sure if it's a bug ...
anyway, at least on AMD64 you have removed MSN protocol.
Right now I am avoiding an upgrade because the flag has been marked as
not usable.[...]"

[Some discussion later]

"If I see (-msn%*) and as far as I know it means that you are removing
the protocol." [.Editor's note: (-msn%) means that the USE flag has been
removed and was not enabled]

[Even more bitching]

"Otherwise, if this was not the case, it's not written anywhere that
this flag is incorporated .... oh, yes I know it is in the Changelog,
and I have read it before filing this bug, but come on ... that's not
the point. In this case, you should do like skype, i.e.: emerge pidgin
(msn) (yahoo) (icq) spell tcl tk -avahi -bonjour ... and so far and so
on ... and you should not delete/remove the flag in the way you did.

Licq still uses msn flag .... so I user may understand that licq is the
only software supporting MSN."

V-Li

--
http://www.gentoo.org/
http://www.faulhammer.org/
http://www.gnupg.org/

Dnia 23-07-2007, pon o godzinie 13:38 +0200, Christian Faulhammer
napisał(a):
> "Eric Polino" <aluink@gmail.com>:
>
> > Would it be possible to have all the protocols for net-im/pidgin
> > turned on by default. We often get people coming to #pidgin looking
> > for help as to why they can't get MSN or some other protocol working.
> > It most often is because they haven't enabled the given protocol USE
> > flag.
>
> Without doubting the decision made about the msn USE flag, here are
> some quotes from a bug report:
>
> "I am not sure if it's a bug ...
> anyway, at least on AMD64 you have removed MSN protocol.
> Right now I am avoiding an upgrade because the flag has been marked as
> not usable.[...]"
>
> [Some discussion later]
>
> "If I see (-msn%*) and as far as I know it means that you are removing
> the protocol." [.Editor's note: (-msn%) means that the USE flag has been
> removed and was not enabled]
>
> [Even more bitching]
>
> "Otherwise, if this was not the case, it's not written anywhere that
> this flag is incorporated .... oh, yes I know it is in the Changelog,
> and I have read it before filing this bug, but come on ... that's not
> the point. In this case, you should do like skype, i.e.: emerge pidgin
> (msn) (yahoo) (icq) spell tcl tk -avahi -bonjour ... and so far and so
> on ... and you should not delete/remove the flag in the way you did.
>
> Licq still uses msn flag .... so I user may understand that licq is the
> only software supporting MSN."
That's why we do have ChangeLogs and --changelog switch to let users
know about changes.
> V-Li
>

Regards
--
,-----------------------------.
| Dawid Węgliński |
| cla@gentoo.org |
| cla @ irc.freenode.net |
| GPG: 295E72D9 |
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Dawid Węgliński wrote:
>
> That's why we do have ... --changelog switch to let users
> know about changes.
>

Which is of no use when (as in this case) there is no associated version
bump.

j.



(also, when every new version is a new slot - kernels and webapps)
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i'm a bit confused...
i have the same problem...
i try to make an upgrade and it says that pidgin is going to be rebuilt
without the msn use flag(althoug i have enabled the use flag for
pidgin,in /etc/portage/package.use)...
what's the problem?...is there a solution?...
:/
thx...
O/H Christian Faulhammer έγραψε:
> "Eric Polino" <aluink@gmail.com>:
>
>
>> Would it be possible to have all the protocols for net-im/pidgin
>> turned on by default. We often get people coming to #pidgin looking
>> for help as to why they can't get MSN or some other protocol working.
>> It most often is because they haven't enabled the given protocol USE
>> flag.
>>
>
> Without doubting the decision made about the msn USE flag, here are
> some quotes from a bug report:
>
> "I am not sure if it's a bug ...
> anyway, at least on AMD64 you have removed MSN protocol.
> Right now I am avoiding an upgrade because the flag has been marked as
> not usable.[...]"
>
> [Some discussion later]
>
> "If I see (-msn%*) and as far as I know it means that you are removing
> the protocol." [.Editor's note: (-msn%) means that the USE flag has been
> removed and was not enabled]
>
> [Even more bitching]
>
> "Otherwise, if this was not the case, it's not written anywhere that
> this flag is incorporated .... oh, yes I know it is in the Changelog,
> and I have read it before filing this bug, but come on ... that's not
> the point. In this case, you should do like skype, i.e.: emerge pidgin
> (msn) (yahoo) (icq) spell tcl tk -avahi -bonjour ... and so far and so
> on ... and you should not delete/remove the flag in the way you did.
>
> Licq still uses msn flag .... so I user may understand that licq is the
> only software supporting MSN."
>
> V-Li
>
>

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Stratos Psomadakis wrote:
> i'm a bit confused...
> i have the same problem...
> i try to make an upgrade and it says that pidgin is going to be rebuilt
> without the msn use flag(althoug i have enabled the use flag for
> pidgin,in /etc/portage/package.use)...
> what's the problem?...is there a solution?...
> :/
> thx...

gentoo-user@gentoo.org

Marijn
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