Mailing List Archive

I think that would be a more useful default view of the docs, but
still doesn't quite get it perfect.

Here is what I think would be ideal: One shorter Web page covering the
installation process, with links to supplemental information that is
currently cluttering everything up. I don't need to read a page about
all the different options I have when installing Gentoo, or see a
complete list of boot options. That's supplemental info. If I need
that I can click on the link. What I don't like is having to click on
links to get to the "next step" of the process. All key steps should
be covered tersely on a single page.

Make sense?

Maybe the solution is as simple as making the quick install guide the
default doc and pepper it with links into the handbook for additional
information. I think that could require relatively little work and do
the trick.

-Daniel

On 3/3/07, Simon Stelling <blubb@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Daniel Robbins wrote:
> > And it should be one (web) page.
>
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?full=1
>
> --
> Kind Regards,
>
> Simon Stelling
> Gentoo/AMD64
> --
> gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
>
>
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Daniel Robbins wrote:
> I think that would be a more useful default view of the docs, but
> still doesn't quite get it perfect.
>
> Here is what I think would be ideal: One shorter Web page covering the
> installation process, with links to supplemental information that is
> currently cluttering everything up. I don't need to read a page about
> all the different options I have when installing Gentoo, or see a
> complete list of boot options. That's supplemental info. If I need
> that I can click on the link. What I don't like is having to click on
> links to get to the "next step" of the process. All key steps should
> be covered tersely on a single page.
>
> Make sense?
[SNIP]
> -Daniel

It sure makes sense !
You mean a web page with options per choise pointing to a section when
that choise is made (consolidate existing install installs)


example :

Select the arch do you want to install gentoo on :
[X]x86 []arm []x86_64

- --> go to url of handbook for x86

Select a iso:
[X]base []full

- --> go to url where mirrors can be selected for x86 and an explenation
how to write the iso


You selected x86-base-iso. Select which stage you want to start the
installation :
[]stage1 []stage2 [X]stage3

- --> go to url of handbook for stage3_install

etc etc ..

That way you have en entire tree of diffirent ways to install but not
the clutter of the other options because every select you do excludes
sections of unneeded other install_documents. Kind of preventing the
cluttering by _choise_.

Maybe it's a daft implementation of your proposal ?



My 0,5 cents
Blokkie

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFF6VeoR6N46HXxiJERArEtAJ4l7HGBBzLCXA8piA9KShaS0xMuHQCghUHQ
6gJC0j5X21VetOZPOvAp3qM=
=87eH
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

On 3/3/07, Josh Saddler <nightmorph@gentoo.org> wrote:
> Next time, read the documentation first.
> http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/list.xml
>
> We've several quickstart/faq-type guides, and an alternate installation
> howto. Man, I wish more developers would read the documentation, or at
> least bother to get a general idea of what we have. There are some good
> resources to be found with even minimal searching.

I did read the documentation. My point was that in addition to the
(very good) documentation we already have, there was a place for
something simpler to use for the beginner. And I was offering my help.
Your reaction makes me want to back off.

Denis.
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Thibaut Fernagut wrote:
> It sure makes sense !
> You mean a web page with options per choise pointing to a section when
> that choise is made (consolidate existing install installs)
>
>
> example :
>
> Select the arch do you want to install gentoo on :
> [X]x86 []arm []x86_64
>
> --> go to url of handbook for x86
>
> Select a iso:
> [X]base []full
>
> --> go to url where mirrors can be selected for x86 and an explenation
> how to write the iso
>
>
> You selected x86-base-iso. Select which stage you want to start the
> installation :
> []stage1 []stage2 [X]stage3
>
> --> go to url of handbook for stage3_install

I'm not sure how will it look from the maintenance POV. If you want to
have such a documentation, why don't you talk to the documentation team
and/or try to implement it yourself? If you can maintain an up-to-date
"guide" with reasonable low manpower, you can use it as an argument that
our approach really works and is worth the effort.

As a sidenote, most of those "choices" you've mentioned either don't
exist at all now (stage selection) or have no real effect at the
installation process (ISO selection).

> That way you have en entire tree of diffirent ways to install but not
> the clutter of the other options because every select you do excludes
> sections of unneeded other install_documents. Kind of preventing the
> cluttering by _choise_.

You should read our x86 quickinstall guide [1], if you already haven't
done so. If it still doesn't suit your needs, it would be best to
continue this dicsussion at the gentoo-doc mailing list.

And please remember that sometimes it's easier and more readable to
inculde an extra sentence for a step that some people might have done
earlier than to include myriad of options to choose from.

[1] http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/gentoo-x86-quickinstall.xml

Cheers,
-jkt

--
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

On Sat, 2007-03-03 at 02:50 -0500, Chris Gianelloni wrote:

[snip]

> Remember, we switched from quarterly to bi-annual releases for a reason.

FYI.
This archived copy was from 2004
http://staff.osuosl.org/~cshields/gentoosurvey/#doc_chap8

We may wish to consider rerunning this survey annually to see where we
stand.


> We simply didn't have the man power, CPU power, nor time to do vigorous
> enough testing in the much more shortened time frame. I'm going to be
> asking for Release Testers again once I return, and if last year's turn
> out was any indicator (50+ people volunteering, about 5 actually helping
> *at all*), the chances of a project such as nightly builds ever taking
> off is well beyond our means at this time.
>
--
Ned Ludd <solar@gentoo.org>
Gentoo Linux

--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> I have no plans on releasing *any* kind of nightly *anything* so
> long as Release Engineering still gets minimal testing from only a
> *tiny* subset of our developer pool when we are basically *begging* for
> it.

I've been wondering about why I don't think I've ever seen an announcement
of a release candidate on DistroWatch for example.

> With the current participation level, I just don't see it as possible.
> Remember, we switched from quarterly to bi-annual releases for a reason.
> We simply didn't have the man power, CPU power, nor time to do vigorous
> enough testing in the much more shortened time frame. I'm going to be
> asking for Release Testers again once I return, and if last year's turn
> out was any indicator (50+ people volunteering, about 5 actually helping
> *at all*), the chances of a project such as nightly builds ever taking
> off is well beyond our means at this time.

Well, I hope this year's turn out will be better, cause I'm planning on using 2007.0 as a starting
point. I will continue to test 2007.0 to see if at least it boots on my hardware :)

Patrick(DrEeevil) has kindly offered use of his servers at http://gentooexperimental.org/ and has
expressed interest in stage3's as have some other people earlier in this thread. My plan is to start
off with amd64 install cd only to keep work load down. This will include an amd64 stage3. Probably
there will be stage3's for x86 and maybe another architecture, I think Patrick mentioned PPC, unless
they turn out to be too much trouble. I'm hoping to do something between weekly and monthly releases.

It would be great if I could have at least one other person to do this with me and maybe some
release engineering support for when I have a silly question.

Marijn
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v2.0.2 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFF7EoKp/VmCx0OL2wRAn3eAJ9cOIoiMBE8sHJ08hCV6S/5OcLiMgCbB33l
+hNgc9kvoTSuFc78mG4lyxo=
=CLhv
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

On Mon, 2007-03-05 at 17:49 +0100, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> > I have no plans on releasing *any* kind of nightly *anything* so
> > long as Release Engineering still gets minimal testing from only a
> > *tiny* subset of our developer pool when we are basically *begging* for
> > it.
>
> I've been wondering about why I don't think I've ever seen an announcement
> of a release candidate on DistroWatch for example.

Well, the fact that we don't *have* release candidates probably plays
something into it. ;]

> > With the current participation level, I just don't see it as possible.
> > Remember, we switched from quarterly to bi-annual releases for a reason.
> > We simply didn't have the man power, CPU power, nor time to do vigorous
> > enough testing in the much more shortened time frame. I'm going to be
> > asking for Release Testers again once I return, and if last year's turn
> > out was any indicator (50+ people volunteering, about 5 actually helping
> > *at all*), the chances of a project such as nightly builds ever taking
> > off is well beyond our means at this time.
>
> Well, I hope this year's turn out will be better, cause I'm planning on using 2007.0 as a starting
> point. I will continue to test 2007.0 to see if at least it boots on my hardware :)
>
> Patrick(DrEeevil) has kindly offered use of his servers at http://gentooexperimental.org/ and has
> expressed interest in stage3's as have some other people earlier in this thread. My plan is to start
> off with amd64 install cd only to keep work load down. This will include an amd64 stage3. Probably
> there will be stage3's for x86 and maybe another architecture, I think Patrick mentioned PPC, unless
> they turn out to be too much trouble. I'm hoping to do something between weekly and monthly releases.

Do *not* make them even *appear* to be anything related to Release
Engineering. We don't want to support anything more than we currently
do.

What does this mean?

It means that if you insist on doing your own version of some kind of
nightly/weekly/monthly/etc that you're entirely on your own. Like I
have said before, Release Engineering currently does weekly stage builds
on several architectures (Alpha/AMD64/PPC/x86) for QA purposes. We
simply don't release those stages because we have exactly 0 intentions
on ever supporting them.

> It would be great if I could have at least one other person to do this with me and maybe some
> release engineering support for when I have a silly question.

Silly question, sure. However, my answer to you is going to be "use the
same scripts Release Engineering does" on this. As I said, we have
automated stages being built, we just don't test them thoroughly enough
to be comfortable giving them to our users under *any* circumstances.
If you're willing to put in the work to create the stages, ensuring you
have some kind of mirror space for them, and plan on supporting them
yourself, then more power to you. You definitely won't hear me complain
about it. However, as soon as your work starts impacting mine, such as
when I start getting a bunch of bogus bug reports on the non-release
stages, you're going to get quite a bit of complaining from me. The
*last* thing that we need is some half-assed non-working stages out
there in the wild, with users using them, then complaining to us,
thereby *increasing* our workload.

--
Chris Gianelloni
Release Engineering Strategic Lead
Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams
Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee
Gentoo Foundation