Mailing List Archive

Hello Stefan,

On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Stefan de Konink <stefan@konink.de> wrote:

>
> This opens the door for the question: is the English naming how it
> should be? And if it is, is it intuitive enough for most users, and
> newbies.
>
> Because it is one of the most fundamental things to understand in
> Cherokee, (you can't doing PHP without it is a pain ;) I would like to
> open a discussion:
>
> What would be your favorite name for Final and for non-Final?
>

First of all, thank you for kicking of this discussion.

To start: I think Final is good, but non-Final I would like to think it
> as transparent, inherit, etc.
>
> I hope we can streamline this thread to this specific naming. More
> subjects can come later :) Mailinglists are free ;)
>

I'd also like to invite people to discuss potential improvements for the GUI
regarding the handle of the Behavior rule lists. The evaluation system
itself will not be changed, but I'm sure we can come up with some usability
improvements over the current interface that would make a difference.

Cheers!

--
Greetings, alo
http://www.octality.com/

Hi all,

i came from apache htaccess and at first look i had problem due that in
htacces is "last" mark for final. Maybe add tip on help "Called last in
htaccess"

And i agree that non-final can be confusing. transparent can also be
confusing, maybe is really inherit the optimum of this, i hope for some
other ideas.

Regards,
Jan

On Fri, 2011-08-26 at 17:04 +0200, Alvaro Lopez Ortega wrote:
> Hello Stefan,
>
> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Stefan de Konink <stefan@konink.de>
> wrote:
>
> This opens the door for the question: is the English naming
> how it
> should be? And if it is, is it intuitive enough for most
> users, and newbies.
>
> Because it is one of the most fundamental things to understand
> in
> Cherokee, (you can't doing PHP without it is a pain ;) I would
> like to
> open a discussion:
>
> What would be your favorite name for Final and for non-Final?
>
> First of all, thank you for kicking of this discussion.
>
>
> To start: I think Final is good, but non-Final I would like to
> think it
> as transparent, inherit, etc.
>
> I hope we can streamline this thread to this specific naming.
> More
> subjects can come later :) Mailinglists are free ;)
>
> I'd also like to invite people to discuss potential improvements for
> the GUI regarding the handle of the Behavior rule lists. The
> evaluation system itself will not be changed, but I'm sure we can come
> up with some usability improvements over the current interface that
> would make a difference.
>
> Cheers!
>
> --
> Greetings, alo
> http://www.octality.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Cherokee mailing list
> Cherokee@lists.octality.com
> http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee

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> What would be your favorite name for Final and for non-Final?

Final is probably ok.

How about Passing/Passed for non-Final?
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On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Stefan de Konink <stefan@konink.de> wrote:
> To start: I think Final is good, but non-Final I would like to think it
> as transparent, inherit, etc.

Final is OK
non-Final is also OK for me. But agree it can be confusing but with
change of 'non-Final' the 'Final' should be changed also. Maybe for
Final => Last
non-Final => Pass

I would definitely go for changing both or none of Final/non-Final.

Greetings,
Jędrzej Nowak
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I agree with Jędrzej. Final/non-Final is confusing, but changing only one
of them -non-Final- could be even more confusing. The best thing would be
changing both or none.

"Last" and "Pass" seems to be more intuitive.

Probably, native english people would be the best to decide this...

Also, we should take into account, not only the real and strict meaning of
the word, but also the historical background in the IT field for similar
cases.

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 10:19:23 +0200, Jędrzej Nowak <me@pigmej.eu> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 26, 2011 at 4:52 PM, Stefan de Konink <stefan@konink.de>
> wrote:
>> To start: I think Final is good, but non-Final I would like to think it
>> as transparent, inherit, etc.
>
> Final is OK
> non-Final is also OK for me. But agree it can be confusing but with
> change of 'non-Final' the 'Final' should be changed also. Maybe for
> Final => Last
> non-Final => Pass
>
> I would definitely go for changing both or none of Final/non-Final.
>
> Greetings,
> Jędrzej Nowak
> _______________________________________________
> Cherokee mailing list
> Cherokee@lists.octality.com
> http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee


--
---------------------

Hugo Vázquez Caramés

"El trabajo que nunca se empieza es el que tarda más en finalizarse" (J.
R. R. Tolkien)

"La mayoría de las personas gastan más tiempo y energías en hablar de los
problemas que en afrontarlos" (Henry Ford)

"Lo imposible es el fantasma de los tímidos y el refugio de los cobardes"
(N. Bonaparte)

========================================================
PENTEST Consultores
Tel: 93 3962070 / Fax: 93 3962001
e-mail: hvazquez@pentest.es
========================================================
Gane credibilidad y confianza, visite http://www.pentest.es


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+1 "Last" and "Pass"

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Voltron wrote:

> +1 "Last" and "Pass"


But this still doesn't cover what it actually means. What does 'pass'
mean, it could even mean 'disabled'.

Stefan
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Pass is quite popular for example in python it means something like
"nothing" just behave normally and go to the next thing.

So Pass exactly cover what currently 'non-final' does ;) Apply all,
but go to the next execution, and it's completelly different thing
than 'disabled' ;)

Greetings,
Jędrzej Nowak



On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Stefan de Konink <stefan@konink.de> wrote:
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Voltron wrote:
>
>> +1 "Last" and "Pass"
>
>
> But this still doesn't cover what it actually means. What does 'pass' mean,
> it could even mean 'disabled'.
>
> Stefan
>
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Hello,

On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Stefan de Konink <stefan@konink.de> wrote:

> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Voltron wrote:
>
> +1 "Last" and "Pass"
>>
>
> But this still doesn't cover what it actually means. What does 'pass' mean,
> it could even mean 'disabled'.
>

I do not like pass much, actually.

I've been thinking about something like "Final" and "Properties". At the end
of the day, the use of non-final rules is to set properties along the
evaluation chain.

--
Greetings, alo
http://www.octality.com/

Alvaro, "Properties" is better than "Pass" agree, but for me "Last" is
better than "Final" also :-) (as I remember in Apache L means Last
also)


Pozdrawiam
Jędrzej Nowak



On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 2:28 PM, Alvaro Lopez Ortega
<alvaro@octality.com> wrote:
> Hello,
>
> On Mon, Aug 29, 2011 at 1:54 PM, Stefan de Konink <stefan@konink.de> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 29 Aug 2011, Voltron wrote:
>>
>>> +1 "Last" and "Pass"
>>
>> But this still doesn't cover what it actually means. What does 'pass'
>> mean, it could even mean 'disabled'.
>
> I do not like pass much, actually.
> I've been thinking about something like "Final" and "Properties". At the end
> of the day, the use of non-final rules is to set properties along the
> evaluation chain.
>
> --
> Greetings, alo
> http://www.octality.com/
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cherokee mailing list
> Cherokee@lists.octality.com
> http://lists.octality.com/listinfo/cherokee
>
>
_______________________________________________
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Hello Jędrzej,

2011/8/29 Jędrzej Nowak <me@pigmej.eu>

> Alvaro, "Properties" is better than "Pass" agree, but for me "Last" is
> better than "Final" also :-) (as I remember in Apache L means Last
> also)
>

For me "Last" would be kind of confusing though.

In my understanding the main meaning of "last" refers to a position: The one
at the end on a line or queue. Taking that into account, it would not make
much sense to find something marked as "Last" in the middle of a group.

We could try to try something slightly more descriptive like: "Stop on
match" and "Continue on match".

--
Greetings, alo
http://www.octality.com/

I said Last because of Apache for example ;-)

Maybe some kind of
"Continue" + "Break" as in programming languages... described as
"Continue rules execution' and 'Break rules execution'


Greetings,
Jędrzej Nowak



2011/8/29 Alvaro Lopez Ortega <alvaro@octality.com>:
> Hello Jędrzej,
>
> 2011/8/29 Jędrzej Nowak <me@pigmej.eu>
>>
>> Alvaro, "Properties" is better than "Pass" agree, but for me "Last" is
>> better than "Final" also :-) (as I remember in Apache L means Last
>> also)
>
> For me "Last" would be kind of confusing though.
> In my understanding the main meaning of "last" refers to a position: The one
> at the end on a line or queue. Taking that into account, it would not make
> much sense to find something marked as "Last" in the middle of a group.
> We could try to try something slightly more descriptive like: "Stop on
> match" and "Continue on match".
> --
> Greetings, alo
> http://www.octality.com/
>
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Hi,

On Mon, 29 Aug 2011 15:29:52 +0200, Alvaro Lopez Ortega
<alvaro@octality.com> wrote:

> Hello Jędrzej,
>
> 2011/8/29 Jędrzej Nowak <me@pigmej.eu>
>
>> Alvaro, "Properties" is better than "Pass" agree, but for me "Last" is
>> better than "Final" also :-) (as I remember in Apache L means Last
>> also)
>>
>
> For me "Last" would be kind of confusing though.
>
> In my understanding the main meaning of "last" refers to a position: The
> one
> at the end on a line or queue. Taking that into account, it would not
> make
> much sense to find something marked as "Last" in the middle of a group.
>
> We could try to try something slightly more descriptive like: "Stop on
> match" and "Continue on match".

Yes. "Stop on match" and "Continue on match" is much easier to understand
for newbies!

You all should think about people not used to work with Cherokee nor
Apache or other... One of the best things I have found in Cherokee is it's
intuitive interface. Some people -many old HTTP server users- do not like
intuitive interfaces, some times because it allows "standard" users do
powerful things without having to touch a single line of configuration
files, so there's no need to be a "guru". I have worked with almost any
-serious- web server developed since 90's, and can tell that the easier is
to configure a web server, the less prone to errors is... So simplicity is
a great. "Stop on match" and "Continue on match" are friendly to most
languages, so there should be no "lost in translation" surprises...

Great idea Alvaro.

>


--
---------------------

Hugo Vázquez Caramés

"El trabajo que nunca se empieza es el que tarda más en finalizarse" (J.
R. R. Tolkien)

"La mayoría de las personas gastan más tiempo y energías en hablar de los
problemas que en afrontarlos" (Henry Ford)

"Lo imposible es el fantasma de los tímidos y el refugio de los cobardes"
(N. Bonaparte)

========================================================
PENTEST Consultores
Tel: 93 3962070 / Fax: 93 3962001
e-mail: hvazquez@pentest.es
========================================================
Gane credibilidad y confianza, visite http://www.pentest.es


Este e-mail es confidencial y destinado únicamente a la persona a la cual
va dirigido. Si Ud. no es el destinatario al cual va dirigido este e-mail
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recipient,be advised that you have received this email in error and that
any use,dissemination, forwarding, printing or copying of this email is
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On Mon, 2011-08-29 at 15:29 +0200, Alvaro Lopez Ortega wrote:

>
>
> We could try to try something slightly more descriptive like: "Stop on
> match" and "Continue on match".

Spot on! +2 ;)


--
Mateusz Pawlowski <js@yllq.net>

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I think any succinct language here will likely lead to some form of
ambiguity, and as previously mentioned, the only way around this is to use
something lengthier. The problem with this is that you end up likely
repeating yourself as terms become verbose. I think simplicity in the terms
is best (eg something like Final vs Pass-Through) and have something as
close as possible (because IMHO there's no one right answer).

Maybe provide something like tooltips and easily accessible documentation.
I could see having the something like the current Final/Non-Final button in
the left-hand listing, but also have another tab against each rule which
could describe the differences.

My 2 cents worth :)

-- David