Mailing List Archive: [Bricolage-General] Re: [Bricolage-Devel] Element Redesign Feedback Requested

[Bricolage-General] Re: [Bricolage-Devel] Element Redesign Feedback Requested

Dec 6, 2002, 12:39 PM

Post #1 of 8 (1175 views)

On Friday, December 6, 2002, at 10:22 AM, David Wheeler wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> There has been a lot of text going back and forth between Mark and me
> on the development list with regard to the proposed element redesign,
> and I'm working on a new version of the RFC. But before I release it,
> I wanted to send this briefer message with some specific ideas that I
> want to get feedback on.

Oh, and one more idea:

Top-Level Element and Subelement Managers Should be Separate
============================================================
Perhaps it's just my own biases at work, but my perception is that the
ability to define story type elements and subelements in the same
interface is confusing. I think it would make better conceptual sense
to end users to have a separate "Document Definition Manager" and
"Element Definition Manager". This way, all of the possible
(sub)elements can be defined in one place, and the concept of the
top-level element can be separated out into its own manager to help
enforce the distinction.

Upshot
------
How do you feel about having separate concepts and interfaces for
document definition and element definition?

Thanks,

David

--
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[Bricolage-General] Re: [Bricolage-Devel] Element Redesign Feedback Requested [ In reply to ]

david at wheeler

Dec 6, 2002, 12:48 PM

Post #2 of 8 (1162 views)

Permalink

On Friday, December 6, 2002, at 12:39 PM, David Wheeler wrote:

> Oh, and one more idea:
>
> Top-Level Element and Subelement Managers Should be Separate
> ============================================================

Uh, I *did* say that. Sorry, never mind, please ignore.

David

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[Bricolage-General] Re: [Bricolage-Devel] Element Redesign Feedback Requested [ In reply to ]

sam at tregar

Dec 6, 2002, 1:26 PM

Post #3 of 8 (1157 views)

Permalink

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, David Wheeler wrote:

> How do you feel about having "Story" and "Media" merged into the single
> concept of a "Document" in Bricolage? How will this hurt/help how you
> work with Bricolage in the future?

Desiging software is about choosing metaphors that match the way your
users think. In our usage of Bricolage, as a publishing system for online
magazines, it is obvious that our users maintain a mental distinction
between Stories and Media. Removing this divide will make our use of the
software more difficult. Thus, I am against this change.

> How do you feel about managing Elements only, with no more Element
> Types to group them?

Positive. I was tempted to include this in the original RFC, but I
thought it would be rejected.

> What do you think of the idea of separate Document Manager and Element
> Manager interfaces?

I don't see a large upside here. Adding a new document definition will
obviously involve creating new element definitions... Having to use two
different interfaces seems clumsy.

> Shall we spell it "Subelement" or "Sub-element" or "Sub-Element"?

All three work fine for me.

-sam

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[Bricolage-General] Re: [Bricolage-Devel] Element Redesign Feedback Requested [ In reply to ]

david at wheeler

Dec 6, 2002, 1:46 PM

Post #4 of 8 (1161 views)

Permalink

On Friday, December 6, 2002, at 01:26 PM, Sam Tregar wrote:

> Desiging software is about choosing metaphors that match the way your
> users think. In our usage of Bricolage, as a publishing system for
> online
> magazines, it is obvious that our users maintain a mental distinction
> between Stories and Media. Removing this divide will make our use of
> the
> software more difficult. Thus, I am against this change.

I'll just point out here that i wish to allow users to determine what
the distinctions are, rather than imposing them on them. If you create
Element Definitions for "Story" and "Media", you'll be good to go just
as you are now.

Thanks for the feedback,

David

--
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[Bricolage-General] Re: [Bricolage-Devel] Element Redesign Feedback Requested [ In reply to ]

sam at tregar

Dec 6, 2002, 2:32 PM

Post #5 of 8 (1156 views)

Permalink

On Fri, 6 Dec 2002, David Wheeler wrote:

> I'll just point out here that i wish to allow users to determine what
> the distinctions are, rather than imposing them on them. If you create
> Element Definitions for "Story" and "Media", you'll be good to go just
> as you are now.

I disagree. The UI distinctions between Media and Stories in the current
UI go much deeper than the distinctions between element types. They have
separate workflows, search interfaces, and navigation. Thus, even with
"media" document types, some useful separation between Media and Stories
would be lost.

-sam

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[Bricolage-General] Re: [Bricolage-Devel] Element Redesign Feedback Requested [ In reply to ]

david at wheeler

Dec 6, 2002, 2:52 PM

Post #6 of 8 (1155 views)

Permalink

On Friday, December 6, 2002, at 02:32 PM, Sam Tregar wrote:

> I disagree. The UI distinctions between Media and Stories in the
> current
> UI go much deeper than the distinctions between element types. They
> have
> separate workflows, search interfaces, and navigation. Thus, even with
> "media" document types, some useful separation between Media and
> Stories
> would be lost.

No, you'll just be able to determine what those distinctions are,
yourself.

David

--
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david@wheeler.net ICQ: 15726394
http://david.wheeler.net/ Yahoo!: dew7e
Jabber: Theory@jabber.org

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[Bricolage-General] Re: [Bricolage-Devel] Element Redesign Feedback Requested [ In reply to ]

mark at geekhive

Dec 9, 2002, 7:35 AM

Post #7 of 8 (1157 views)

Permalink

Sam Tregar wrote:
> > How do you feel about having "Story" and "Media" merged into the single
> > concept of a "Document" in Bricolage? How will this hurt/help how you
> > work with Bricolage in the future?
>
> Desiging software is about choosing metaphors that match the way your
> users think. In our usage of Bricolage, as a publishing system for online
> magazines, it is obvious that our users maintain a mental distinction
> between Stories and Media. Removing this divide will make our use of the
> software more difficult. Thus, I am against this change.

I'm against getting rid of Media as a top level element, but
I still don't like the name Story very much. If you can
think of something better than Document fine.

> > How do you feel about managing Elements only, with no more Element
> > Types to group them?
>
> Positive. I was tempted to include this in the original RFC, but I
> thought it would be rejected.

Agreed.

> > What do you think of the idea of separate Document Manager and Element
> > Manager interfaces?
>
> I don't see a large upside here. Adding a new document definition will
> obviously involve creating new element definitions... Having to use two
> different interfaces seems clumsy.

I agree. Let's not do that.

> > Shall we spell it "Subelement" or "Sub-element" or "Sub-Element"?
>
> All three work fine for me.

Ce m'est égale.

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--
=================================================================
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[Bricolage-General] Re: [Bricolage-Devel] Element Redesign Feedback Requested [ In reply to ]

david at wheeler

Dec 9, 2002, 7:55 AM

Post #8 of 8 (1156 views)

Permalink

On Monday, December 9, 2002, at 07:35 AM, Mark Jaroski wrote:

> I'm against getting rid of Media as a top level element, but
> I still don't like the name Story very much. If you can
> think of something better than Document fine.

By your reply to Sam's last message, may I assume that you feel that
the WHO's needs will be met well enough by my proposed changes to
Workflow, too? So that this plan will then be okay?

>> I don't see a large upside here. Adding a new document definition
>> will
>> obviously involve creating new element definitions... Having to use
>> two
>> different interfaces seems clumsy.
>
> I agree. Let's not do that.

Well, there's time to consider this, still. The UI changes will happen
later on.

>>> Shall we spell it "Subelement" or "Sub-element" or "Sub-Element"?
>>
>> All three work fine for me.
>
> Ce m'est égale.

Beg pardon?

David

--
David Wheeler AIM: dwTheory
david@wheeler.net ICQ: 15726394
http://david.wheeler.net/ Yahoo!: dew7e
Jabber: Theory@jabber.org

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