Mailing List Archive

Hi,

Actual, this is the first message i every receive on the list, expect my
subscribsion accepted message :)

Is there some other, secret list, where anybody talks, or is apache
developed by ghosts ?-)

- Reinder

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stefano Gobbo [mailto:stefano.gobbo@mail.biblio.polimi.it]
> Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 15:33
> To: apache-docs@apache.org
> Subject: Silence
>
>
> What happened to the Apache Documentation Project?
> Two months have passed since the last message on the doc list.
> Does it means that nobody is currently working on it?
>
> Regards
> Stefano
>
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> --------------
> Stefano Gobbo
> mailto://Stefano.Gobbo@biblio.polimi.it
>
> Responsabile Tecnico
>
> Sistema Informativo Bibliotecario Tel: +39 2 2399 2292
> Politecnico di Milano Fax: +39 2 2399 2294
> Italia Web:
> http://www.biblio.polimi.it
>

Kraaij, Reinder wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Actual, this is the first message i every receive on the list, expect my
> subscribsion accepted message :)
>
> Is there some other, secret list, where anybody talks, or is apache
> developed by ghosts ?-)
>
> - Reinder
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Stefano Gobbo [mailto:stefano.gobbo@mail.biblio.polimi.it]
> > Sent: Tuesday, November 03, 1998 15:33
> > To: apache-docs@apache.org
> > Subject: Silence
> >
> >
> > What happened to the Apache Documentation Project?
> > Two months have passed since the last message on the doc list.
> > Does it means that nobody is currently working on it?
> >
> > Regards
> > Stefano

:]

I haven't said anything; mainly because I am looking
for the mod_rewrite, mod_perl, and other similar lists :]

I read the 'docs' but the docs don't appear to explain things...

Hmmmm,
-Sneex- :]
______________________________________________________________________
Bill Jones | 904/632-3089 | http://www.fccj.org/cgi/mail?webmaster

Hi, Stefano and Reinder, and anybody else who's been wondering
about this list. I can't answer your questions re: why the list
has so little activity (curious about that myself). But I do know
that by far the greatest amount of traffic and messages re: Apache
in general, including sometimes its documentation, takes place on
the "new-httpd" list.

But maybe we can get some activity going on this one. I'm a tech writer,
teacher, and Apache mailing list lurker who's interested in helping
out the project by doing documentation work. How about you folks?

Take care.

Michele Petrovsky
"This is the moment of embarking. All auspicious signs are in place."

> But I do know that by far the greatest amount of traffic and messages re: Apache
> in general, including sometimes its documentation, takes place on
> the "new-httpd" list.
I listen daily the *main* list and the main reason for which I decided to wake
up the ghost is the couple of document posted to the list (specifically, the
MS Migration doc and the Hallowen doc).

> But maybe we can get some activity going on this one. I'm a tech writer,
> teacher, and Apache mailing list lurker who's interested in helping
> out the project by doing documentation work. How about you folks?
I believe that documentation plays a primary role in the effort of penetrating
enterprise and business deployment. I'm ready to enter the game.
The only *true* obstacle which I must face is the language but, you know,
with a little help of some (new) friends...

Regards

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stefano Gobbo mailto:Stefano.Gobbo@biblio.polimi.it

Responsabile Tecnico
Sistema Informativo Bibliotecario Tel: +39 2 2399 2292
Politecnico di Milano Fax: +39 2 2399 2294
Italia Web: http://www.biblio.polimi.it

At 04:00 PM 11/3/98 +100, you wrote:
>> But I do know that by far the greatest amount of traffic and messages re:
Apache
>> in general, including sometimes its documentation, takes place on
>> the "new-httpd" list.
>I listen daily the *main* list and the main reason for which I decided to wake
>up the ghost is the couple of document posted to the list (specifically, the
>MS Migration doc and the Hallowen doc).

I saw the Halloween doc too. Is it possible it's for real?

>
>> But maybe we can get some activity going on this one. I'm a tech writer,
>> teacher, and Apache mailing list lurker who's interested in helping
>> out the project by doing documentation work. How about you folks?
>I believe that documentation plays a primary role in the effort of penetrating
>enterprise and business deployment. I'm ready to enter the game.
>The only *true* obstacle which I must face is the language but, you know,
>with a little help of some (new) friends...
>

That's great! And language need not be a problem; I'm sure
we can find someone to help us out with any translating that's needed.
And I agree completely with your view of the role of
documentation. Particularly for a (largely) Unix-based aplication
like Apache, the "it's too cryptic" type of criticism can keep many
people from considering it.

So, folks, what might we do for our first "Apache Documentation Group"
project? Some of the fellows at new-httpd suggested the following:

* a "User's Guide" that would offer step-by-step, "how to
install and configure" instructions
* some simple, "canned" configurations, already zipped and
ready to download and install

I've taken a few stabs at the first, but it's nowhere near ready yet.
I hopeto complete it by the end of this year. (Got delayed because of
having to upgrade/reconfigure my PC. But in another week or two, will
have two versions of Linux up, and apache under each, so will be able to
resume at that point.)

Does anyone out there have any other ideas as to how we could further
Stefano's goal of creating a body of Apache documentation that will aid the
application in being further accepted and deployed in the business and
enterprise spheres?

Michele
"Life is like an hourglass; consciousness is the sand."

> Does anyone out there have any other ideas as to how we could further
> Stefano's goal of creating a body of Apache documentation that will aid the
> application in being further accepted and deployed in the business and
> enterprise spheres?
I'm currently working on a sort of enterprise envision with the aim of opening
a debate on what should be done to increase the adoption of Apache in the
enterprise core. Two considerations mainly drove me to this point:

1. I believe that Apache is now quite known to the enterprise management.
What is probably missing is some kind of higher level of abstraction
directed to strategic IT professionals.

2. A wider adoption within the big companies will IMHO enhance the test
base concerning with heavy load mission critical business and last-minute
technology integration.

It is said "kill most the pen than the sword". Well, demonstrate that
the word (in therm of wider breath documentation) is sometime a product
from the facts (read we provide what we state), and not viceversa.

Stefano

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stefano Gobbo mailto:Stefano.Gobbo@biblio.polimi.it

Responsabile Tecnico
Sistema Informativo Bibliotecario Tel: +39 2 2399 2292
Politecnico di Milano Fax: +39 2 2399 2294
Italia Web: http://www.biblio.polimi.it

At 05:02 PM 11/3/98 +100, you wrote:

>I'm currently working on a sort of enterprise envision with the aim of opening
>a debate on what should be done to increase the adoption of Apache in the
>enterprise core. Two considerations mainly drove me to this point:
>
>1. I believe that Apache is now quite known to the enterprise management.
> What is probably missing is some kind of higher level of abstraction
> directed to strategic IT professionals.
>
>2. A wider adoption within the big companies will IMHO enhance the test
> base concerning with heavy load mission critical business and last-minute
> technology integration.
>
>It is said "kill most the pen than the sword". Well, demonstrate that
>the word (in therm of wider breath documentation) is sometime a product
>from the facts (read we provide what we state), and not viceversa.
>

Once again, I agree. But specifically, how might we accomplish this?

Michele

> Once again, I agree. But specifically, how might we accomplish this?
Step by step, without any hurry.
Let's begin with the definition of the goals we want (and we can) accomplish.
I fear that we need a broader work group than me and you (but I don't think
this should be a problem).
Moreover, we *MUST* involve someone from the "higher floor", at least in this
planning phase.

Next, we can talk about deliverables:
+ what are we going to produce?
+ how (if so) this can affect the whole project direction?

...and questions like these.
But I'm running too fast (and too far). Gimme some time and stay tuned.

Ciao




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stefano Gobbo mailto:Stefano.Gobbo@biblio.polimi.it

IT Manager
Library Information System Tel: +39 02 2399 2292
Politecnico di Milano Fax: +39 02 2399 2294
Italy Web: http://www.biblio.polimi.it

Hi,

I am interested in creating Apache end-user (i.e.
administrator) documentation as well.
I think it would be nice if there was a Web site which was
used to maintain and host
final version of the docs produced by this doc group. I can
provide a site for such a
project. But before that we need to establish some solid
goals. Shell we outline
some goals in this discussion group? I also think that there
should be different
levels of docs for beginning to advanced users of Apache.

Anyway, let me know what you think.

Thanks.

Kabir


--
Phone: (916) 649-9626
Fax: (916) 649-0209
Voice: (916) 649-9513
WWW: http://www.nitec.com

At 05:34 PM 11/3/98 +100, you wrote:
>> Once again, I agree. But specifically, how might we accomplish this?
>Step by step, without any hurry.
>Let's begin with the definition of the goals we want (and we can) accomplish.
>I fear that we need a broader work group than me and you (but I don't think
>this should be a problem).
>Moreover, we *MUST* involve someone from the "higher floor", at least in this
>planning phase.
>
>Next, we can talk about deliverables:
>+ what are we going to produce?
>+ how (if so) this can affect the whole project direction?
>
>...and questions like these.
>But I'm running too fast (and too far). Gimme some time and stay tuned.
>

I'll do some serious pondering too. Talk to you soon.

On Tue, 3 Nov 1998, Stefano Gobbo wrote:

> What happened to the Apache Documentation Project?
> Two months have passed since the last message on the doc list.
> Does it means that nobody is currently working on it?

Pretty much.

Docs are one of those things that needs an individual to provide focus and
direction and provide a way for people to step up and say "ok, I can write
these ten paragraphs dealing with this".

Browsing through the archives (http://dev.apache.org/mail/ , and look at
docs.*) would be a useful exercise to see the start of previous frameworks
and how they didn't go anywhere.

What I would suggest is working from an outline. Someone needs to take
the time to build a solid (not necessarily comprehensive, no need to start
too big) outline then try to convince people to contribute sections.

At 09:02 AM 11/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I am interested in creating Apache end-user (i.e.
>administrator) documentation as well.
>I think it would be nice if there was a Web site which was
>used to maintain and host
>final version of the docs produced by this doc group. I can
>provide a site for such a
>project. But before that we need to establish some solid
>goals. Shell we outline
>some goals in this discussion group? I also think that there
>should be different
>levels of docs for beginning to advanced users of Apache.
>

Everything here makes a lot of sense.

As something to get our thinking/discussion moving, I'm attaching
a copy of an outline for an "Apache Users Guide". I'd forwarded
this outline to new-httpd a few weeks ago, and some of the folks there
felt it would be of use/a place to start with the kind of effort
we've been discussing here today.

Attachment is Word 6; if some other format is more convenient, please
advise, and I'll resend.

Michele

Hi,

I just scanned the outline a bit. I will spend more time looking at
it.
However, after looking at for a very short time it I think I have the
following questions:

a. Are we talking about developing a manual for Apache that resembles
a
typical book format?

b. Are we interested in making the document easily searchable? Say
using
a search engine such as eXcite?

Personally, I think book-format will not be interesting since people
can just
go buy a book on Apache and its much prettier and easy to hold on your
hands.
I think the documentation project should consider:

i. Coverage of latest and greatest modules. I seldom find modules to
be well documented. [Exception: Ralf's modules! :) ]

ii. Introduction to the design of the Apache software. This is really
important as it is becoming more easy to tap into Apache via
mod_perl
and other modules which might allow access to Apache internals.


Well that's all I can think of for now.


Michele Petrovsky wrote:
>
> At 09:02 AM 11/3/98 -0800, you wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >I am interested in creating Apache end-user (i.e.
> >administrator) documentation as well.
> >I think it would be nice if there was a Web site which was
> >used to maintain and host
> >final version of the docs produced by this doc group. I can
> >provide a site for such a
> >project. But before that we need to establish some solid
> >goals. Shell we outline
> >some goals in this discussion group? I also think that there
> >should be different
> >levels of docs for beginning to advanced users of Apache.
> >
>
> Everything here makes a lot of sense.
>
> As something to get our thinking/discussion moving, I'm attaching
> a copy of an outline for an "Apache Users Guide". I'd forwarded
> this outline to new-httpd a few weeks ago, and some of the folks there
> felt it would be of use/a place to start with the kind of effort
> we've been discussing here today.
>
> Attachment is Word 6; if some other format is more convenient, please
> advise, and I'll resend.
>
> Michele
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Name: PROP4ADC.DOC
> PROP4ADC.DOC Type: Microsoft Word Document (application/msword)
> Encoding: base64

--
Phone: (916) 649-9626
Fax: (916) 649-0209
Voice: (916) 649-9513
WWW: http://www.nitec.com

Michele Petrovsky wrote:
> As something to get our thinking/discussion moving, I'm attaching
> a copy of an outline for an "Apache Users Guide". I'd forwarded
> this outline to new-httpd a few weeks ago, and some of the folks there
> felt it would be of use/a place to start with the kind of effort
> we've been discussing here today.
>
> Attachment is Word 6; if some other format is more convenient, please
> advise, and I'll resend.
>
> Michele
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Name: PROP4ADC.DOC
> PROP4ADC.DOC Type: Microsoft Word Document (application/msword)
> Encoding: base64

Hi :]

Word (or Wordperfect) version 6 format works best within my
Applixware word-processor :] (I'm on RedHat 5.1 at home and
Solaris 2.5.1 and MacOS 8.1 at work...)

Thx!
-Sneex- :]
______________________________________________________________________
Bill Jones | 904/632-3089 | http://www.fccj.org/cgi/mail?webmaster

Hi,

From what i tried about getting some information about apache Doc's I
learned the following:


1) It's not easy to Directly found information you want, You need to ask
several people's who lead you to a peace of source sometimes, then say
"read it inside the source"

2) When you have a problem, there's not such a thing as "Get Info About.."


3) The Documents there are, are not readable for ,,freetime'' , Where that
stands for browsing through some interesting pages, which are not needed
yet, but where from you think "Hm, these might come in handy"


4) It's also missing a Big Frame work. There should be a ApacheDocPortal on
the Web, which will guide you to the information you need. Without an easy
way of information, even the best Software will fail to capture Market, as
Newbie's are thinking to fast that it will be a pain for them. Information
is the Road for building the future.

5) The Power of apache is still not used at it best in the market, Thousands
of people are still writing CGI's , will there is a much more powerful use
of it - Modules -


In my simple minded opinion, if we create a DocPortal, it should definitely
not be in Book format.
Yes, BackWays of the Portal have to be in Book Format, but the very front
has to be a Modular, quick-guiding-through system. Users don't have to guess
where the info stands, and don't want a thousand page links on there
questions.


The System has to be ordered. From what I read now, there are already
several different kind of users who want documents, and they all have a
different view.

1) The Users, They who might just load a Binary Apache, place it, and want
to have it configured, and secured
2) The Power Users, who Get the Source, Does some ./Configure and modifies
it somewhere
3) The beginning Developers, who have there server running, and want to
create a cgi script for it
(have you ever tried to find quickly within minutes on the website what
kind of environment's are set inside apache ?)
(you will land at FAQ Point 61, then you end op at a cgi document,
finding that these things are called
,, Request Metadata (Meta-Variables) ''
(http://web.golux.com/coar/cgi/draft-coar-cgi-v11-01.html#6.1 )
4) The Advanced Developers, who try writing some Module and want information
about routine's and functions used inside apache
5) The apache "Core" Developers. (who build the inner inside of the
webserver)



These 5 Categories should find a way to the Portal of Apache,somehow.


Regards,
Reinder Kraaij

At 09:24 AM 11/4/98 +0100, you wrote:

>In my simple minded opinion, if we create a DocPortal, it should definitely
>not be in Book format.

I seem to have misled everyone unintentionally. I didn't mean to suggest
book format - only that a user's guide in plain language, and which
follows a functional structure (i.e., "This module/directive is what
you need to ...") rather than the programmatic one the existing online
docs take, would IMHO help make Apache overall more understandable and
therefore more easily acceptable to people at large.

Michele

At 09:24 AM 11/4/98 +0100, you wrote:

>The System has to be ordered. From what I read now, there are already
>several different kind of users who want documents, and they all have a
>different view.
>
>1) The Users, They who might just load a Binary Apache, place it, and want
>to have it configured, and secured
>2) The Power Users, who Get the Source, Does some ./Configure and modifies
>it somewhere
>3) The beginning Developers, who have there server running, and want to
>create a cgi script for it
> (have you ever tried to find quickly within minutes on the website what
>kind of environment's are set inside apache ?)
> (you will land at FAQ Point 61, then you end op at a cgi document,
>finding that these things are called
> ,, Request Metadata (Meta-Variables) ''
>(http://web.golux.com/coar/cgi/draft-coar-cgi-v11-01.html#6.1 )
>4) The Advanced Developers, who try writing some Module and want information
>about routine's and functions used inside apache
>5) The apache "Core" Developers. (who build the inner inside of the
>webserver)
>

This point re: level of expertise of areas of the audience is critical.
Personally, I feel the needs of the latter two types are outside the
area of responsibility of a group like we seem to be building/becoming.
Anyone who's technically knowledgeable enough to be in either Category
4 or Category 5 would be able to work with the existing dos. (If I can
understand them, I'm sure down-on-the-metal coders can.)

But for anyone at any of the first three levels of expertise, Reinder's
suggestion:

>Yes, BackWays of the Portal have to be in Book Format, but the very front
>has to be a Modular, quick-guiding-through system. Users don't have to guess
>where the info stands, and don't want a thousand page links on there
>questions.
>

has a lot of merit.

Michele