Mailing List Archive

The watchlist queue does not work recently
Hi. There is a serious problem in watchlist queue at the last hours. The
edits that one already read do not disappear from the Watchlist. If I use
the rcfilter "unseen changes" I can see also all the edits I already read,
but not in bold - what is definitely impossible for this filter (see
safemode screenshot below). When I use the Global Watchlist, the edits I
read do not disappear from the list for hours. This also means that the
problem exists on multiple wikis. I believe there is a need for "Unbreak
Now!" phabricator ticket, and do not file it by myself because I have no
way to get reconstruction steps. Hopely the developers could check the
queue and fix the problem. Thank you,
Igal (User:IKhitron)
https://imgur.com/a/zoEraFl
Re: The watchlist queue does not work recently [ In reply to ]
On Mon, 2020-12-28 at 19:01 +0200, ???? ?????? wrote:
> There is a serious problem in watchlist queue at the last hours.

Hi, please see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_report_a_bug (or
point people who experience the problem to that page).

Thanks,
andre

--
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https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/


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Re: The watchlist queue does not work recently [ In reply to ]
I know this. I've explained exactly why I can't file a ticket.
Igal


?????? ??? ??, 28 ????? 2020, 21:47, ??? Andre Klapper ?<
aklapper@wikimedia.org>:

> On Mon, 2020-12-28 at 19:01 +0200, ???? ?????? wrote:
> > There is a serious problem in watchlist queue at the last hours.
>
> Hi, please see https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_report_a_bug (or
> point people who experience the problem to that page).
>
> Thanks,
> andre
>
> --
> Andre Klapper (he/him) | Bugwrangler / Developer Advocate
> https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
Re: The watchlist queue does not work recently [ In reply to ]
On Mon, 2020-12-28 at 22:44 +0200, ???? ?????? wrote:
> I know this. I've explained exactly why I can't file a ticket.
> Igal

I read that. I explained which link to follow to report this in the
correct place: in the issue tracker. Sometimes exact steps to reproduce
are not known [yet] and that can be fine initially - in that case the
reporter should provide the steps to reproduce that the reporter knows.

Cheers,
andre
--
Andre Klapper (he/him) | Bugwrangler / Developer Advocate
https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/


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Re: The watchlist queue does not work recently [ In reply to ]
I already tryed this approach a couple of times, and every time you said
not to report if I have no full reproducing algorithm.
Igal

?????? ??? ??, 29 ????? 2020, 11:40, ??? Andre Klapper ?<
aklapper@wikimedia.org>:

> On Mon, 2020-12-28 at 22:44 +0200, ???? ?????? wrote:
> > I know this. I've explained exactly why I can't file a ticket.
> > Igal
>
> I read that. I explained which link to follow to report this in the
> correct place: in the issue tracker. Sometimes exact steps to reproduce
> are not known [yet] and that can be fine initially - in that case the
> reporter should provide the steps to reproduce that the reporter knows.
>
> Cheers,
> andre
> --
> Andre Klapper (he/him) | Bugwrangler / Developer Advocate
> https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
Re: The watchlist queue does not work recently [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 2020-12-29 at 13:53 +0200, ???? ?????? wrote:
> I already tryed this approach a couple of times, and every time you
> said not to report if I have no full reproducing algorithm.

I don't think so. I can rather imagine that I asked to always follow
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_report_a_bug with all its bits
and pieces (how to structure bug reports, to include sufficient info
such as links and browser info, making sure no gadgets interfere, etc).

Cheers,
andre
--
Andre Klapper (he/him) | Bugwrangler / Developer Advocate
https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/


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Re: The watchlist queue does not work recently [ In reply to ]
Sure. As you said, this very link requires full reproduction steps.
Igal


?????? ??? ??, 29 ????? 2020, 17:19, ??? Andre Klapper ?<
aklapper@wikimedia.org>:

> On Tue, 2020-12-29 at 13:53 +0200, ???? ?????? wrote:
> > I already tryed this approach a couple of times, and every time you
> > said not to report if I have no full reproducing algorithm.
>
> I don't think so. I can rather imagine that I asked to always follow
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_report_a_bug with all its bits
> and pieces (how to structure bug reports, to include sufficient info
> such as links and browser info, making sure no gadgets interfere, etc).
>
> Cheers,
> andre
> --
> Andre Klapper (he/him) | Bugwrangler / Developer Advocate
> https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
Re: The watchlist queue does not work recently [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 2020-12-29 at 20:14 +0200, ???? ?????? wrote:
> Sure. As you said, this very link requires full reproduction steps.

No. It says "Full details of the issue, giving as much detail as possible."

andre
--
Andre Klapper (he/him) | Bugwrangler / Developer Advocate
https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/


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Re: The watchlist queue does not work recently [ In reply to ]
This discussion does not concern the list, please continue it in private if you need to.


On Tue, 2020-12-29 at 13:53 +0200, ???? ?????? wrote:
> I already tryed this approach a couple of times, and every time you
> said not to report if I have no full reproducing algorithm.


Yeah, I also had to deal with such unhelpful responses before. Some advice to avoid this:

Customer service rule no. 1: listen to the customer. It's not helpful to argue and I'd assume that's not what Andre's employer expects from him.
Rule no. 2: be helpful. If he can't help in understanding the issue, as a last resort he can create a minimal bug report himself, if the customer is not comfortable to do so.


It seems Andre is the primary contact for users, so enrolling to a customer service training course might help him better represent the WMF and fulfill his task.
I think the WMF with all the new plans would gladly support that course monetarily, as it would greatly benefit the community and the image of the WMF.



Happy festivities,
Tom


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Re: The watchlist queue does not work recently [ In reply to ]
Pe mar?i, 29 decembrie 2020, Andre Klapper <aklapper@wikimedia.org> a scris:

> On Tue, 2020-12-29 at 20:14 +0200, ???? ?????? wrote:
> > Sure. As you said, this very link requires full reproduction steps.
>
> No. It says "Full details of the issue, giving as much detail as possible."


That's just... Confusing. I can totally understand why someone would feel
discouraged from logging an issue. How about "Full details of the issue,
giving all the information you currently have. If that is insufficient you
will be asked for additional information along with guidance on how to
obtain it."?

An example of what "minimized steps" means might also be a good idea.

Strainu


> andre
> --
> Andre Klapper (he/him) | Bugwrangler / Developer Advocate
> https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l
>
Re: The watchlist queue does not work recently [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 2020-12-29 at 21:24 +0200, Strainu wrote:
>
> Pe mar?i, 29 decembrie 2020, Andre Klapper a scris:
> >
> > No. It says "Full details of the issue, giving as much detail as
> > possible."
> >
>
> That's just... Confusing. I can totally understand why someone would
> feel discouraged from logging an issue. How about "Full details of
> the issue, giving all the information you currently have. If that is
> insufficient you will be asked for additional information along with
> guidance on how to obtain it."? 
>
> An example of what "minimized steps" means might also be a good
> idea. 

Feel free to edit / improve the wiki page. :)

Thanks a lot!
andre

--
Andre Klapper (he/him) | Bugwrangler / Developer Advocate
https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/


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Re: The watchlist queue does not work recently [ In reply to ]
On Tue, 2020-12-29 at 18:37 +0000, Tom Doles via Wikitech-l wrote:
Yeah, I also had to deal with such unhelpful responses before.

I'm sorry to hear that. The process of gathering sufficient info in
tickets can unfortunately sometimes be confusing, surprising, or
frustrating, given the many technical Wikimedia areas and complexity.

> Some advice to avoid this:

Customer service rule no. 1: listen to the customer. It's not helpful
to argue and I'd assume that's not what Andre's employer expects from
him.


There might be a misunderstanding:

Phabricator is an issue tracker where people interact in their many
different roles (readers, editors, developers, managers, translators,
document writers, designers, etc etc etc). Anyone can report Wikimedia
related technical issues there, by following
https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_report_a_bug

If you are looking for a 'customer service' support venue, then you may
want to check https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk for
MediaWiki, or https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech for tech issues on
Wikimedia wikis, or contact the OTRS mail queues.


Regarding [part of] my work, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bugwrangler
tries to outline some duties. (As I was explicitly mentioned.)

Hope that helps a bit. :)

Cheers,
andre

--
Andre Klapper (he/him) | Bugwrangler / Developer Advocate
https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/


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Re: The watchlist queue does not work recently [ In reply to ]
În mar., 29 dec. 2020 la 23:46, Andre Klapper <aklapper@wikimedia.org> a scris:
>
> On Tue, 2020-12-29 at 18:37 +0000, Tom Doles via Wikitech-l wrote:
> Yeah, I also had to deal with such unhelpful responses before.
>
> I'm sorry to hear that. The process of gathering sufficient info in
> tickets can unfortunately sometimes be confusing, surprising, or
> frustrating, given the many technical Wikimedia areas and complexity.
>
> > Some advice to avoid this:
>
> Customer service rule no. 1: listen to the customer. It's not helpful
> to argue and I'd assume that's not what Andre's employer expects from
> him.
>
>
> There might be a misunderstanding:

Not a misunderstanding, more like a difference in the chosen meaning
of the term. I think what Tom was suggesting is that the bugwrangler,
just like anyone doing any commercial activity in this world, has
customers to which they provide a service - in this case, the services
described at [[:mw:Bugwrangler]] [0].and specifically the following
line: "Work with members of the community who report bugs to clarify
any ambiguity in the bug descriptions and get all the information
required to reproduce the bugs", For the purposes of this thread, your
customers are the members of the community which take from their time
to report bugs.

The "rules" described in Tom's email are good practices that can be
encountered, under different forms, in many companies' core values.
[1] While WMF does not put them this high, I would not dismiss them
as "not my job". My suggestion would be to ask for more constructive
feedback instead:
* Why is the "How to report a bug" page not helpful?
* Where do you need more info?
* How can the bugwrangler help more while keeping in mind he needs to
scale his methods to hundreds or thousands of bug reporters every
month?

[0] As a sidenote, I personally find that page to be comprehensive and
providing an appropriate level of detail
[1] https://builtin.com/company-culture/company-core-values-examples

>
> Phabricator is an issue tracker where people interact in their many
> different roles (readers, editors, developers, managers, translators,
> document writers, designers, etc etc etc). Anyone can report Wikimedia
> related technical issues there, by following
> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/How_to_report_a_bug
>
> If you are looking for a 'customer service' support venue, then you may
> want to check https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Project:Support_desk for
> MediaWiki, or https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Tech for tech issues on
> Wikimedia wikis, or contact the OTRS mail queues.
>
>
> Regarding [part of] my work, https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Bugwrangler
> tries to outline some duties. (As I was explicitly mentioned.)
>
> Hope that helps a bit. :)

Same here :)

Strainu

>
> Cheers,
> andre
>
> --
> Andre Klapper (he/him) | Bugwrangler / Developer Advocate
> https://blogs.gnome.org/aklapper/
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikitech-l mailing list
> Wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikitech-l

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