Mailing List Archive

Headers
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So, the way MediaWiki markup works now, something that looks like
"=this=" gets rendered as "<h1>this</h1>", and something that looks
like "==this==" gets rendered as "<h2>this</h2>", and so on with more
equal signs making deeper HTML header tags.

The problem with this is that the stylesheets we have render <h1> tags
really, really big. It seems like people try to avoid using one- or
even two-equals headers, just because they render outrageously large.

This seems like a bad precedent to me. The equal signs, in my opinion,
should be used more as *logical* section separators than for physical
formatting. I think that the top level of sections in a page should
use one equal sign -- always, without exception -- and subsections of
those sections should use two equal signs, and so on and so forth.

My question is: how can we get the rendering right so "=this=" renders
more neatly, and less obstructively, on a page? One quick-and-dirty
solution is to just have the rendering code shift everything down one
- -- "=this=" becomes "<h2>this</h2>", and "==this==" becomes
"<h3>this</h3>", and so on and so forth.

The problem with that strategy, of course, is that you bottom out at
five section levels, which I personally think is fine for pages at the
granularity of Wikitravel (and Wikipedia, AFAICT). When someone uses
two equal signs for a top-level section header, that's pretty much
what they're doing, anyways.

The other possibility is changing the stylesheets to make h1, h2, h3,
etc. tags somewhat smaller. This seems to be a little less flexible,
wouldn't necessarily work with all browsers, and is harder to get
right.

Suggestions, ideas, comments?

~ESP

- --
Evan Prodromou <evan@wikitravel.org>
Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide
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Re: Headers [ In reply to ]
> From: Evan Prodromou <evan@wikitravel.org>
> Organization: Evan Prodromou
> Reply-To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list
> <mediawiki-l@Wikimedia.org>
> Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 14:49:18 -0500
> To: MediaWiki announcements and site admin list <mediawiki-l@Wikimedia.org>
> Cc: Wikitravellers <wikitravellers@wikitravel.org>
> Subject: [Mediawiki-l] Headers
>
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>
> So, the way MediaWiki markup works now, something that looks like
> "=this=" gets rendered as "<h1>this</h1>", and something that looks
> like "==this==" gets rendered as "<h2>this</h2>", and so on with more
> equal signs making deeper HTML header tags.
>
> The problem with this is that the stylesheets we have render <h1> tags
> really, really big. It seems like people try to avoid using one- or
> even two-equals headers, just because they render outrageously large.
>
> This seems like a bad precedent to me. The equal signs, in my opinion,
> should be used more as *logical* section separators than for physical
> formatting. I think that the top level of sections in a page should
> use one equal sign -- always, without exception -- and subsections of
> those sections should use two equal signs, and so on and so forth.
>
> My question is: how can we get the rendering right so "=this=" renders
> more neatly, and less obstructively, on a page? One quick-and-dirty
> solution is to just have the rendering code shift everything down one
> - -- "=this=" becomes "<h2>this</h2>", and "==this==" becomes
> "<h3>this</h3>", and so on and so forth.
>
> The problem with that strategy, of course, is that you bottom out at
> five section levels, which I personally think is fine for pages at the
> granularity of Wikitravel (and Wikipedia, AFAICT). When someone uses
> two equal signs for a top-level section header, that's pretty much
> what they're doing, anyways.
>
> The other possibility is changing the stylesheets to make h1, h2, h3,
> etc. tags somewhat smaller. This seems to be a little less flexible,
> wouldn't necessarily work with all browsers, and is harder to get
> right.
>
> Suggestions, ideas, comments?

By fiddling with the code one can make = h3 == h3 ==== h1 or any other
combination of the two. So there is no problem once you decide to use
smaller emphasis.

Fred
>
> ~ESP
>
> - --
> Evan Prodromou <evan@wikitravel.org>
> Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
> The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide
>
Re: Headers [ In reply to ]
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>>>>> "FB" == Fred Bauder <fredbaud@ctelco.net> writes:

Me> This seems like a bad precedent to me. The equal signs, in my
Me> opinion, should be used more as *logical* section separators
Me> than for physical formatting. I think that the top level of
Me> sections in a page should use one equal sign -- always, without
Me> exception -- and subsections of those sections should use two
Me> equal signs, and so on and so forth.

Me> [...]

Me> Suggestions, ideas, comments?

FB> By fiddling with the code one can make = h3 == h3 ==== h1 or
FB> any other combination of the two. So there is no problem once
FB> you decide to use smaller emphasis.

I'm not quite sure what code you're referring to: the markup for an
individual article, or the MediaWiki rendering code?

If you mean the first: see my selected note above. If you mean the
second: yes, I think that's the right answer.

~ESP

- --
Evan Prodromou <evan@wikitravel.org>
Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide
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Re: Headers [ In reply to ]
>
>>>>>> "FB" == Fred Bauder <fredbaud@ctelco.net> writes:
>
> Me> This seems like a bad precedent to me. The equal signs, in my
> Me> opinion, should be used more as *logical* section separators
> Me> than for physical formatting. I think that the top level of
> Me> sections in a page should use one equal sign -- always, without
> Me> exception -- and subsections of those sections should use two
> Me> equal signs, and so on and so forth.
>
> Me> [...]
>
> Me> Suggestions, ideas, comments?
>
> FB> By fiddling with the code one can make = h3 == h3 ==== h1 or
> FB> any other combination of the two. So there is no problem once
> FB> you decide to use smaller emphasis.
>
> I'm not quite sure what code you're referring to: the markup for an
> individual article, or the MediaWiki rendering code?
>
> If you mean the first: see my selected note above. If you mean the
> second: yes, I think that's the right answer.
>
> ~ESP

the MediaWiki rendering code
Re: Headers [ In reply to ]
On Nov 19, 2003, at 11:49, Evan Prodromou wrote:
> So, the way MediaWiki markup works now, something that looks like
> "=this=" gets rendered as "<h1>this</h1>", and something that looks
> like "==this==" gets rendered as "<h2>this</h2>", and so on with more
> equal signs making deeper HTML header tags.
>
> The problem with this is that the stylesheets we have render <h1> tags
> really, really big. It seems like people try to avoid using one- or
> even two-equals headers, just because they render outrageously large.

<h1> is supposed to be used for the page title only. You can stick one
in manually (either as <h1> or as = foo =) but, just like putting
headers in an incorrect stacking order, it will seriously confuse
things such as the table of contents and header numbering for those
that turn on that option.

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Re: Headers [ In reply to ]
>>>>> "BV" == Brion Vibber <brion@pobox.com> writes:

BV> <h1> is supposed to be used for the page title only. You can
BV> stick one in manually (either as <h1> or as = foo =) but, just
BV> like putting headers in an incorrect stacking order, it will
BV> seriously confuse things such as the table of contents and
BV> header numbering for those that turn on that option.

So, I take it that you're saying that the top-level headers should
always be ==like this==, with sub-headers smaller? And that having
=this= render as great big <h1>'s is by design?

And that other code, like the TOC or the header numbering, expects
top-level headers to be ==like this==?

I can totally live with that. I just don't like having top-level
section headers be different for different pages, just to get the
output correct.

~ESP

--
Evan Prodromou <evan@wikitravel.org>
Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide
Re: Headers [ In reply to ]
On Nov 19, 2003, at 17:43, Evan Prodromou wrote:
> So, I take it that you're saying that the top-level headers should
> always be ==like this==, with sub-headers smaller? And that having
> =this= render as great big <h1>'s is by design?

The page title *is the* top-level heading. Within an article's text, ==
is the highest level you should be using.

> And that other code, like the TOC or the header numbering, expects
> top-level headers to be ==like this==?

Page title -> <h1>Page title</h1>
== Header == -> <h2>Header</h2>
=== Subheader === -> <h3>Subheader</h3>
==== Subsubheader ==== -> <h4>Subsubheader</h4>
etc
== Another header == -> <h2>Another header</h2>

If you skip levels, like this:
== Header ==
==== Oops, too many ====

etc, things get confused and cannot assign section levels correctly.

> I can totally live with that. I just don't like having top-level
> section headers be different for different pages, just to get the
> output correct.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. On what sort of page
would you do something different?

-- brion vibber (brion @ pobox.com)
Re: Headers [ In reply to ]
>>>>> "BV" == Brion Vibber <brion@pobox.com> writes:

BV> The page title *is the* top-level heading. Within an article's
BV> text, == is the highest level you should be using.

Sorry. I was talking about headings for sections of pages.

---8<---
This is Wiki ''markup''.

==Section 1==

===Section 1.1===

==Section 2==

===Section 2.1===

====Section 2.1.1====

---8<---

(Yes, I know the numbering can be done automatically. Just an
example.)

I tend not to think of these things in terms of <h2>, <h3>, <h4>
headers, but as structural delimiters in the article. A MediaWiki
article renderer for PDF or DocBook wouldn't use <h2> for ==this==,
it'd just make a section header.

>> I can totally live with that. I just don't like having
>> top-level section headers be different for different pages,
>> just to get the output correct.

BV> I'm not sure I understand what you mean here. On what sort of
BV> page would you do something different?

The main problem is people doing this:

---8<---
This is Wiki ''markup''.

====Section 1====

====Section 2====

====Section 3====

---8<---

...because the rendering of <h4> tags "looks better".

On Wikitravel, we've been standardizing on using =this= (not <h1>, but
one equal sign) for sections of an article, ==this== for sub-sections
of an article, etc. But if the MediaWiki software expects ==this== for
sections, ===this=== for sub-sections, etc., we might as well go with
the flow. We've been making policy based on misapprehension.

~ESP

--
Evan Prodromou <evan@wikitravel.org>
Wikitravel - http://www.wikitravel.org/
The free, complete, up-to-date and reliable world-wide travel guide