And an international organisation hiring more people in a city where employment conditions are so expensive you can’t do the job properly is not?
Also no-one was recommending firing the current incumbents, or not that I noticed anyway. Cheers, P
From: Gnangarra [mailto:gnangarra@gmail.com]
Sent: 20 April 2023 10:18
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour
No, what I said was that firing people in one country then hiring some else in another country with the same skills to do the same job just because employment conditions are cheaper is morally bankrupt. With that just hiring from certain countries because its cheapest with the least amount of conditions, is also morally bankrupt.
On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 at 16:02, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
So leave them to rot because their standard of living is low and their government is crap? Right.
From: Gnangarra [mailto:gnangarra@gmail.com]
Sent: 18 April 2023 13:49
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour
Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the pool of donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries. Much like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of travel.
On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:
Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place, buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to Romania or something)
Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that are based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit...
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:
And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can example a few.
I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is one reason why this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. Here's a few others off the top of my head:
* Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they own.
* Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members angry.
* Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance to deprecate functionality.
* Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
* Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature requests is not a roadmap).
There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And, not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
Dan
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Also no-one was recommending firing the current incumbents, or not that I noticed anyway. Cheers, P
From: Gnangarra [mailto:gnangarra@gmail.com]
Sent: 20 April 2023 10:18
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour
No, what I said was that firing people in one country then hiring some else in another country with the same skills to do the same job just because employment conditions are cheaper is morally bankrupt. With that just hiring from certain countries because its cheapest with the least amount of conditions, is also morally bankrupt.
On Thu, 20 Apr 2023 at 16:02, Peter Southwood <peter.southwood@telkomsa.net> wrote:
So leave them to rot because their standard of living is low and their government is crap? Right.
From: Gnangarra [mailto:gnangarra@gmail.com]
Sent: 18 April 2023 13:49
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour
Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the pool of donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries. Much like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of travel.
On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:
Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place, buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to Romania or something)
Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that are based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com> wrote:
I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit...
On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com> wrote:
And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can example a few.
I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is one reason why this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. Here's a few others off the top of my head:
* Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they own.
* Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members angry.
* Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance to deprecate functionality.
* Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
* Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature requests is not a roadmap).
There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And, not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
Dan
_______________________________________________
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