I don't work for the Foundation, but my understanding is that the HR folks
there - and I'm sure many others across the organisation - have thought a
lot about the staff (and salary) implications of being an international
project with a US HQ. One particular question that seems to come up is
about whether salaries should be adjusted to the cost of living in a
particular region, which I personally agree with for the reasons that
Felipe outlined.
I do find this comment interesting: "WMF already has many employees that
are based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate."
I don't know who determines whether employment conditions are moral or
otherwise? As a (not entirely random) indicator, the minimum required paid
maternity leave in the U.S. is zero weeks, whereas in Romania it's a year.
Lucy
On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 at 13:05, <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org>
wrote:
> Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour
> (Felipe Schenone)
> 2. Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour
> (The Cunctator)
> 3. Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour (Gnangarra)
> 4. Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour
> (Amir Sarabadani)
> 5. Re: Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 award ceremony announcement
> (Ciell Wikipedia)
> 6. Re: Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 award ceremony announcement
> (Kassia Echavarri-Queen)
> 7. Some Updates & Foundation’s 2023-2024 Annual Plan
> (Maryana Iskander)
> 8. Re: 23 March: Invitation to Open Community Call on ChatGPT,
> generative AI, and Wikimedia
> (Kimmo Virtanen)
> 9. [Wikimedia Announcements] Voting open in the seventeenth annual
> Picture of the Year contest
> (Kunal Mehta)
> 10. WikiYouthCon Update (James Popoola)
> 11. Graph Extension (Tim Moody)
> 12. Re: Graph Extension (James Heilman)
> 13. Re: Graph Extension (Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga)
> 14. Re: Graph Extension (Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 09:22:21 -0300
> From: Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening
> tour
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <
> CABbLfopUW11bTNCSFGbE8Dq6TgXvJjofeiZfm-tyGXo68kvJYw@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="00000000000042bac405f99b5eed"
>
> Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a month
> means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you want, buy
> food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough left over to
> buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick Google search
> suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs around USD 4000,
> while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be wrong, but judging
> from https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can
> see that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
> 16,000 a month.
>
> Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even USD
> 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
> bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding labor
> laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
> (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
> just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not sure
> that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of
> WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > or the 3am meetings
> >
> > On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving
> >> money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
> >> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries. Much
> >> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth
> engaging
> >> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden
> of
> >> travel.
> >>
> >> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
> >>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
> >>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all,
> and
> >>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to
> >>>>> Romania or something)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
> >>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is
> part of
> >>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
> >>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to
> skills and
> >>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that are
> >>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little
> bit...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
> >>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
> >>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a
> maintainer (or
> >>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I
> can
> >>>>>> example a few.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why
> >>>>> this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one.
> Here's
> >>>>> a few others off the top of my head:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
> >>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything
> that they
> >>>>> own.
> >>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
> >>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community
> members
> >>>>> angry.
> >>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance to
> >>>>> deprecate functionality.
> >>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
> >>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
> >>>>> requests is not a roadmap).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And,
> >>>>> not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
> >>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be
> deprecated!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
> involved,
> >>>>> to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dan
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
> >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Boodarwun
> >>>> Gnangarra
> >>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>> guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>> Public archives at
> >>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
> >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> guidelines
> >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>> Public archives at
> >>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Boodarwun
> >> Gnangarra
> >> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >> koortaboodjar'
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Boodarwun
> > Gnangarra
> > 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> > koortaboodjar'
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:29:42 -0400
> From: The Cunctator <cunctator@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening
> tour
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <
> CACOqVVugg9K_So4J7VeRbbhGK+LYfvn-28qMWyTmxPHzcZejag@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="000000000000f80f4705f99b7600"
>
> I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite
> money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the
> work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will go
> a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit
> having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and salary
> differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and
> should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But
> like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a
> > month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you
> > want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough
> left
> > over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick
> > Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs
> > around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be
> > wrong, but judging from
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see
> > that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
> > 16,000 a month.
> >
> > Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even
> USD
> > 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
> > bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding
> labor
> > laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
> > (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
> > just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not
> sure
> > that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of
> > WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> or the 3am meetings
> >>
> >> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for
> saving
> >>> money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
> >>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries.
> Much
> >>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth
> engaging
> >>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden
> of
> >>> travel.
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
> >>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
> >>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all,
> and
> >>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to
> >>>>>> Romania or something)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
> >>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is
> part of
> >>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
> >>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to
> skills and
> >>>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that
> are
> >>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com
> >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little
> bit...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
> >>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
> >>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a
> maintainer (or
> >>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I
> can
> >>>>>>> example a few.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why
> >>>>>> this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only
> one. Here's
> >>>>>> a few others off the top of my head:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
> >>>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain
> everything that they
> >>>>>> own.
> >>>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
> >>>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community
> members
> >>>>>> angry.
> >>>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance
> >>>>>> to deprecate functionality.
> >>>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
> >>>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
> >>>>>> requests is not a roadmap).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head.
> And,
> >>>>>> not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
> >>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be
> deprecated!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
> >>>>>> involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dan
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Boodarwun
> >>>>> Gnangarra
> >>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>>>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
> >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>> guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>> Public archives at
> >>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
> >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Boodarwun
> >>> Gnangarra
> >>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Boodarwun
> >> Gnangarra
> >> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >> koortaboodjar'
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> Public archives at
> >>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/FY56RA7EBK6LF4CYLJJNMD6IU6YAG74Z/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 20:44:04 +0800
> From: Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening
> tour
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <CAD==kbK7wJUrhxapDWP-pmJHHtK0Q_1vj10+hPn=
> wckvS_ceLg@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="0000000000004b936005f99baa2c"
>
> The point here is that getting rid of staff in one country, purely to hire
> someone in another country to do the same job for significantly less, is
> morally bankrupt. The same issue goes with hiring new people solely from
> selected countries for the same reason. We are a global community and that
> means we should seek out people regardless of their location or the labour
> laws.
>
> That also translates to other areas of the community, where we chose not to
> even consider achieving equity in global activities. We need to do more to
> balance equity through other means.
>
> Yes this has drifted away from the pure software issues, being morally
> loose "because we can" should never be the solution to any problem.
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 20:30, The Cunctator <cunctator@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite
> > money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the
> > work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will
> go
> > a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit
> > having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and
> salary
> > differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and
> > should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But
> > like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a
> >> month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you
> >> want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough
> left
> >> over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick
> >> Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs
> >> around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be
> >> wrong, but judging from
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see
> >> that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
> >> 16,000 a month.
> >>
> >> Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even
> >> USD 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
> >> bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding
> labor
> >> laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
> >> (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
> >> just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not
> sure
> >> that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all
> of
> >> WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> or the 3am meetings
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for
> >>>> saving money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the
> pool of
> >>>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries.
> Much
> >>>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth
> engaging
> >>>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the
> burden of
> >>>> travel.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
> >>>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
> >>>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at
> all, and
> >>>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF
> >>>>>>> to Romania or something)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
> >>>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is
> part of
> >>>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
> >>>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to
> skills and
> >>>>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that
> are
> >>>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions
> dominate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <
> djgwiki@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little
> >>>>>>> bit...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com
> >
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
> >>>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
> >>>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a
> maintainer (or
> >>>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I
> can
> >>>>>>>> example a few.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason
> >>>>>>> why this situation has come about, but it's far from being the
> only one.
> >>>>>>> Here's a few others off the top of my head:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
> >>>>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain
> everything that they
> >>>>>>> own.
> >>>>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
> >>>>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community
> members
> >>>>>>> angry.
> >>>>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance
> >>>>>>> to deprecate functionality.
> >>>>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
> >>>>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
> >>>>>>> requests is not a roadmap).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head.
> >>>>>>> And, not everyone one of those always applies to every situation,
> e.g. I
> >>>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be
> deprecated!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
> >>>>>>> involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dan
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> >>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Boodarwun
> >>>>>> Gnangarra
> >>>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>>>>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
> >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Boodarwun
> >>>> Gnangarra
> >>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Boodarwun
> >>> Gnangarra
> >>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> guidelines
> >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>> Public archives at
> >>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> Public archives at
> >>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/FY56RA7EBK6LF4CYLJJNMD6IU6YAG74Z/
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/GD2STU5IK46XFQZSVEM4SMNYCGUTLVZN/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
> --
> Boodarwun
> Gnangarra
> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> koortaboodjar'
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 14:50:05 +0200
> From: Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening
> tour
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <CA+ttme0nP8_xU1AtDFmxdPwxuz_9mNwJi8S_S9F1maeasBB_=
> w@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="00000000000059bc9005f99bc110"
>
> The discussion about where to hire is way more nuanced than it looks. The
> world doesn't split between SF with astronomical salaries and people who
> don't have access to clean water but are very cheap to hire.
> Some points to consider:
> Other cities in the US are cheaper to hire but with comparable (if not
> better in some cases) standards of living.
> Many European countries are way cheaper to hire. I'm comparing general tech
> salaries, not WMF ones, Germany is basically half of the SF and Poland is
> roughly one fourth. Both have decent standards of living and arguably even
> better labour protection laws. Similarly the UK, Spain, Italy and France.
> Also there are more things to consider: Talent pools, some countries have
> strong tech communities like Greece, Poland, Ukraine and some countries
> don't. Or We can't hire from residents of some countries due to safety and
> security reasons, We also need to make sure WMF is a global community of
> diverse staff.
>
> Striking the balance between all of the above is not easy.
>
>
>
> Am Di., 18. Apr. 2023 um 14:30 Uhr schrieb The Cunctator <
> cunctator@gmail.com>:
>
> > I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite
> > money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the
> > work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will
> go
> > a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit
> > having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and
> salary
> > differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and
> > should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But
> > like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a
> >> month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you
> >> want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough
> left
> >> over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick
> >> Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs
> >> around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be
> >> wrong, but judging from
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see
> >> that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
> >> 16,000 a month.
> >>
> >> Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even
> >> USD 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
> >> bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding
> labor
> >> laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
> >> (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
> >> just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not
> sure
> >> that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all
> of
> >> WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> or the 3am meetings
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for
> >>>> saving money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the
> pool of
> >>>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries.
> Much
> >>>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth
> engaging
> >>>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the
> burden of
> >>>> travel.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
> >>>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
> >>>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at
> all, and
> >>>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF
> >>>>>>> to Romania or something)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
> >>>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is
> part of
> >>>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
> >>>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to
> skills and
> >>>>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that
> are
> >>>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions
> dominate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <
> djgwiki@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little
> >>>>>>> bit...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com
> >
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
> >>>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
> >>>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a
> maintainer (or
> >>>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I
> can
> >>>>>>>> example a few.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason
> >>>>>>> why this situation has come about, but it's far from being the
> only one.
> >>>>>>> Here's a few others off the top of my head:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
> >>>>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain
> everything that they
> >>>>>>> own.
> >>>>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
> >>>>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community
> members
> >>>>>>> angry.
> >>>>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance
> >>>>>>> to deprecate functionality.
> >>>>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
> >>>>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
> >>>>>>> requests is not a roadmap).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head.
> >>>>>>> And, not everyone one of those always applies to every situation,
> e.g. I
> >>>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be
> deprecated!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
> >>>>>>> involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dan
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> >>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Boodarwun
> >>>>>> Gnangarra
> >>>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>>>>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
> >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Boodarwun
> >>>> Gnangarra
> >>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Boodarwun
> >>> Gnangarra
> >>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> guidelines
> >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>> Public archives at
> >>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> Public archives at
> >>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/FY56RA7EBK6LF4CYLJJNMD6IU6YAG74Z/
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/GD2STU5IK46XFQZSVEM4SMNYCGUTLVZN/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
> --
> Amir (he/him)
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 17:09:05 +0200
> From: Ciell Wikipedia <ciell.wikipedia@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 award ceremony
> announcement
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAGarBBchuRYreKGWn3obqT8XAewqOVZ7SrAuDVOEvktrzvsawQ@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="00000000000059e13405f99db2fb"
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Today it's my pleasure to share with you the winners of WLM 2022.
> They are listed in the blogpost on our website
> <https://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/2022_winners/>, and on the page with
> also all the national winners on Commons
> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2022_winners>.
>
> If you'd rather have a look at the images one by one on Commons, this is
> the list with links:
>
> 1.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:????????????????????? 8.jpg
> 2.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fetssund_Lenser.jpg
> 3.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jaszczurówka at Winter.jpg
> 4.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zamek_Czocha,_widok_z_drona.jpg
> 5.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PUTRA_MOSQUE_ARCHITECTURE.jpg
> 6.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mole_Antonelliana_di_sera.jpg
> 7.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Suha pri Škofji Loki - Cerkev
> sv. Janeza Krstnika(EŠD710).jpg
> 8.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PalaciodoplanaltoFR.jpg
> 9.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Saghmosavank_at_winter.jpg
> 10.
>
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tyssedal_Kraftverk,_early_morning.jpg
> 11.
>
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Biserici_de_lemn_din_Hiriseni_si_Girbova_in_Muzeul_Satului.jpg
> 12.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nowy ?migród, Cmentarz ?ydowski
> w Nowym ?migrodzie DZolopa 2015-07-18 103951 0055.jpg
> 13.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Malmöhus slott 2022.jpg
> 14.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baszta Prochowa, Zamek
> Ksi??.jpg
> 15.
>
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mosteiro_da_Serra_do_Pilar_(1).jpg
> The honorary mentions and runners up are the following:
>
> <
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mosteiro_da_Serra_do_Pilar_(1).jpg
> >
> 16.
>
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Milky-way_above_St.Mary_Magdalene_Chapel_in_dingli.jpg
> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al_Hakem_Mosque.jpg>
> 17.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al_Hakem_Mosque.jpg
> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Doors_of_Jantar_Mantar.jpg>
> 18.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Doors_of_Jantar_Mantar.jpg
> 19.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Night view of Safdurjung's
> Tomb.jpg
> 20.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bad Homburg - Erlöserkirche -
> Apsis (3124).jpg
> 21.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:?????.jpg
> 22.
>
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blackpool_-_North_Pier_-_20220917173127.jpg
> 23.
>
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hayravank_monastery_with_frozen_Sevan_lake.jpg
> 24.
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Faro_blanco_detail_9_sept_22.jpg
> 25.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mellieha_Church_1.jpg
>
>
> Enjoy!!
>
> Best,
> Ciell
>
>
> Op za 15 apr 2023 om 00:04 schreef Olga Viota <olga.lidi@gmail.com>:
>
> > Thanks for share the news!
> >
> > El vie., 14 de abril de 2023 2:59 p. m., Ndahiro Derrick Alter <
> > ndahiroderric@gmail.com> escribió:
> >
> >> Thanks for updates Ciell , I am eagerly waiting for the winning photos
> >> for 2022 ????
> >>
> >> On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 at 19:13 Ciell Wikipedia <ciell.wikipedia@gmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> I am excited to share with you that next Tuesday April 18, the winners
> >>> of Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 will be announced.
> >>> Wiki Loves Monuments is a federated photo competition around built
> >>> heritage, which is held annually since 2010.
> >>>
> >>> As always, we'll be hosting our award ceremony through our social media
> >>> channels on Twitter <https://twitter.com/wikimonuments> and Instagram
> >>> <https://www.instagram.com/wikilovesmonuments/>, where we will have a
> >>> countdown from the number 25 to number 1.
> >>> We have scheduled two countdown windows: we will announce the honorary
> >>> mentions on Monday April 17, starting at 6pm UTC with number 25 and
> >>> counting down to number 16 at 10.30pm, announcing one image per 30
> minutes.
> >>> We'll have a little break after that and will return with the number
> 15 at
> >>> 7am on Tuesday April 18 and again announcing one winner per half hour,
> to
> >>> finish with the celebration of the international winner of Wiki Loves
> >>> Monuments 2022 at 2pm UTC.
> >>>
> >>> Please keep an eye out for our posts, and join us in admiring these
> >>> beautiful images of built heritage around the world, and
> congratulating the
> >>> winners.
> >>> A gallery with all the winning photos will be published on our own blog
> >>> <https://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/> and on the WMF Diff site
> >>> afterwards.
> >>>
> >>> Our thanks go to the national organisers, the national juries and, of
> >>> course, the 2022 WLM international jury, without whom none of this
> would
> >>> have been possible.
> >>>
> >>> On behalf of the Wiki Loves Monuments international organising team,
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Ciell
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> guidelines
> >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>> Public archives at
> >>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/RMJ3JJGCHZQUKLO6P63FMNN6JZ3P7OXY/
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>
> >> --
> >> derrick
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> Public archives at
> >>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/2DDBU3FTOYHO7TWD4L4IZECMRMED7JU7/
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
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> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 10:40:11 -0700
> From: Kassia Echavarri-Queen <kechavarriqueen@wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 award ceremony
> announcement
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAL8QfoejGo4FycpniQds_2eX4PDFo8oNXSKN1iunR-ud-DexMQ@mail.gmail.com>
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>
> Absolutely beautiful! Congratulations to all the winners, participants and
> organizers!!!
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:10?AM Ciell Wikipedia <ciell.wikipedia@gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Today it's my pleasure to share with you the winners of WLM 2022.
> > They are listed in the blogpost on our website
> > <https://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/2022_winners/>, and on the page with
> > also all the national winners on Commons
> > <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2022_winners>.
> >
> > If you'd rather have a look at the images one by one on Commons, this is
> > the list with links:
> >
> > 1.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:????????????????????? 8.jpg
> > 2.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fetssund_Lenser.jpg
> > 3.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jaszczurówka at Winter.jpg
> > 4.
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zamek_Czocha,_widok_z_drona.jpg
> > 5.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PUTRA_MOSQUE_ARCHITECTURE.jpg
> > 6.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mole_Antonelliana_di_sera.jpg
> > 7.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Suha pri Škofji Loki - Cerkev
> > sv. Janeza Krstnika(EŠD710).jpg
> > 8.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PalaciodoplanaltoFR.jpg
> > 9.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Saghmosavank_at_winter.jpg
> > 10.
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tyssedal_Kraftverk,_early_morning.jpg
> > 11.
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Biserici_de_lemn_din_Hiriseni_si_Girbova_in_Muzeul_Satului.jpg
> > 12.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nowy ?migród, Cmentarz
> > ?ydowski w Nowym ?migrodzie DZolopa 2015-07-18 103951 0055.jpg
> > 13.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Malmöhus slott 2022.jpg
> > 14.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baszta Prochowa, Zamek
> > Ksi??.jpg
> > 15.
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mosteiro_da_Serra_do_Pilar_(1).jpg
> > The honorary mentions and runners up are the following:
> >
> > <
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mosteiro_da_Serra_do_Pilar_(1).jpg
> >
> > 16.
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Milky-way_above_St.Mary_Magdalene_Chapel_in_dingli.jpg
> > <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al_Hakem_Mosque.jpg>
> > 17.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al_Hakem_Mosque.jpg
> > <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Doors_of_Jantar_Mantar.jpg>
> > 18.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Doors_of_Jantar_Mantar.jpg
> > 19.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Night view of Safdurjung's
> > Tomb.jpg
> > 20.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bad Homburg - Erlöserkirche -
> > Apsis (3124).jpg
> > 21.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:?????.jpg
> > 22.
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blackpool_-_North_Pier_-_20220917173127.jpg
> > 23.
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hayravank_monastery_with_frozen_Sevan_lake.jpg
> > 24.
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Faro_blanco_detail_9_sept_22.jpg
> > 25.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mellieha_Church_1.jpg
> >
> >
> > Enjoy!!
> >
> > Best,
> > Ciell
> >
> >
> > Op za 15 apr 2023 om 00:04 schreef Olga Viota <olga.lidi@gmail.com>:
> >
> >> Thanks for share the news!
> >>
> >> El vie., 14 de abril de 2023 2:59 p. m., Ndahiro Derrick Alter <
> >> ndahiroderric@gmail.com> escribió:
> >>
> >>> Thanks for updates Ciell , I am eagerly waiting for the winning photos
> >>> for 2022 ????
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 at 19:13 Ciell Wikipedia <
> ciell.wikipedia@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi everyone,
> >>>>
> >>>> I am excited to share with you that next Tuesday April 18, the winners
> >>>> of Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 will be announced.
> >>>> Wiki Loves Monuments is a federated photo competition around built
> >>>> heritage, which is held annually since 2010.
> >>>>
> >>>> As always, we'll be hosting our award ceremony through our social
> media
> >>>> channels on Twitter <https://twitter.com/wikimonuments> and Instagram
> >>>> <https://www.instagram.com/wikilovesmonuments/>, where we will have a
> >>>> countdown from the number 25 to number 1.
> >>>> We have scheduled two countdown windows: we will announce the honorary
> >>>> mentions on Monday April 17, starting at 6pm UTC with number 25 and
> >>>> counting down to number 16 at 10.30pm, announcing one image per 30
> minutes.
> >>>> We'll have a little break after that and will return with the number
> 15 at
> >>>> 7am on Tuesday April 18 and again announcing one winner per half
> hour, to
> >>>> finish with the celebration of the international winner of Wiki Loves
> >>>> Monuments 2022 at 2pm UTC.
> >>>>
> >>>> Please keep an eye out for our posts, and join us in admiring these
> >>>> beautiful images of built heritage around the world, and
> congratulating the
> >>>> winners.
> >>>> A gallery with all the winning photos will be published on our own
> blog
> >>>> <https://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/> and on the WMF Diff site
> >>>> afterwards.
> >>>>
> >>>> Our thanks go to the national organisers, the national juries and, of
> >>>> course, the 2022 WLM international jury, without whom none of this
> would
> >>>> have been possible.
> >>>>
> >>>> On behalf of the Wiki Loves Monuments international organising team,
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>> Ciell
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>> guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>> Public archives at
> >>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/RMJ3JJGCHZQUKLO6P63FMNN6JZ3P7OXY/
> >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> derrick
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> guidelines
> >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>> Public archives at
> >>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/2DDBU3FTOYHO7TWD4L4IZECMRMED7JU7/
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> Public archives at
> >>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/A4ESHTW2BWWNECEICJU2AA5VL5MLTSNX/
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/H6GTLQ4I3TBDL4BEIVFYHL22JPBMF674/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 12:39:47 -0500
> From: Maryana Iskander <miskander@wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Some Updates & Foundation’s 2023-2024 Annual
> Plan
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAOmY16h4QXsfE4Hv22ZsCvWVEqHY0H9p+BPBxStZiCf14cus+w@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="00000000000056fbbc05f99fcde2"
>
> This message is being translated into other languages on Meta-wiki.
>
> ???????? • español • français • português • ??????? • ??
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Chief_Executive_Officer/Updates/Annual_plan_update
> >
>
> You can help with more languages.
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Chief_Executive_Officer/Updates/Annual_plan_update
> >
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
>
> As I near my one-and-a-half year mark as CEO of the Wikimedia Foundation, I
> intend to continue providing updates here and elsewhere every few months
> based on your ongoing feedback. (You can find my note from January 2023
> here [1], and all of my past letters on Meta [2]).
>
>
> My top three priorities have remained consistent: (1) strategy/planning,
> (2) leadership, and (3) culture/values. On strategy, Wikimedia Foundation
> Board of Trustees Chair Nataliia Tymkiv recently shared the outcomes [3] of
> a strategic planning retreat that brought together Foundation leadership
> with the Wikimedia Endowment Board and members of the Movement Charter
> Drafting Committee. On planning, I will share more below.
>
>
> On leadership, last Friday, our Chief Product & Technology Officer Selena
> Deckelmann reflected on her first six months on the job. Selena named some
> of the big issues [4] she hopes to help us all tackle in the years to come.
> Thank you to those who have already given her some initial reactions.
>
>
> Finally, I continue to believe more strongly than ever that culture and
> values will be the most sustainable way to make lasting, positive change
> together – on this front, the Wikimedia Foundation will complete a refresh
> of our organizational values [5] by July.
>
>
> The main purpose of this letter is to point you to the Foundation’s draft
> annual plan [6] for our coming fiscal year (July 2023 through June 2024).
> One of the first tasks I named when I started this job was to reimagine the
> Foundation’s annual planning processes. Last year’s plan, my first at the
> Foundation, was focused on radically changing how we did our work. This
> included organizing our work more regionally to better respond to varying
> needs around the world, and also leveling up our own performance,
> accountability, and internal collaboration. This has put us in a better
> position to more meaningfully describe what we can do in the year ahead.
>
>
> Five quick observations about the draft plan before you hopefully take time
> to look at the 17,000+ word document:
>
>
>
> 1.
>
> Looking outward: Like last year, the plan starts by looking outward and
> persistently asking ‘what does the world need from us now’? This
> question
> remains at the heart of the Foundation’s approach to strategy and
> planning. Earlier
> this year, we shared external trends [7] impacting the mission of free
> knowledge, and built on those trends with a well-attended community
> conversation about recent advancements in generative AI and what that
> may
> mean for the projects. Your reflections [8] on these trends is probably
> the most important way to help make sure we’re all focused on the right
> things over the long term.
>
>
>
> 1.
>
> Anchored in movement strategy: For the second year, the plan is firmly
> and unambiguously anchored in movement strategy. Our intention is to
> connect the Foundation’s work even more deeply with the Movement
> Strategy
> Recommendations [9] for more rapid progress towards the 2030 Strategic
> Direction [10]. This is made actionable in our commitments to advancing
> knowledge equity, growing the resource base for community-driven
> priorities, and making sure the Foundation’s own effectiveness
> measurably
> improves from learning and iteration.
>
>
>
> 1.
>
> Our role in Product & Technology: Wikimedia’s people-centered movement
> is powered by product and technology delivered by the Foundation and
> volunteers. We have tried to more intentionally describe our unique role
> as the platform provider supporting communities who are collaborating
> on a
> massive scale. The bulk of this effort, called “Wiki Experiences,”[11]
> recognizes that volunteers are at the heart of the Wikimedian process of
> sensemaking and knowledge creation, and prioritizes established editors
> (including those with extended rights, like admins, stewards,
> patrollers,
> and moderators of all kinds, also known as functionaries) to ensure that
> they have the right tools for the critical work they do every day to
> expand
> and improve quality content, as well as manage community processes.
>
>
>
> 1.
>
> Slower growth and trade-offs: As you will see in the draft plan, an
> important driver of multi-year strategic planning will focus on the
> structure of the Foundation’s budget, future financial projections, and
> possible revenue/product trade-offs. As I shared in my note in January,
> given the revenue shortfall from the December English fundraising
> campaign,
> as well as an uncertain global economic outlook, the Foundation is
> projecting reduced expenses and slower growth than in past years. Over
> the
> past month, we have made internal budget cuts, prioritizing
> non-personnel
> expenses but also reducing staffing by 5 percent. These difficult
> decisions
> were made to support a more sustainable trajectory in expenses for the
> coming few years, and also to maintain our overall funding levels to
> movement partners (including more funding in all regions while
> prioritizing
> proportionally larger growth in underrepresented regions).
>
>
>
> 1.
>
> More granular information about how the Foundation operates. To increase
> visibility and accountability [12], this annual plan includes more
> detailed
> financial projections, such as various budget breakdowns of how we
> allocate
> our resources. It also shares more granular organizational information,
> such as our department goals, people processes, global guidelines, and
> compensation principles. This is meant to complement some of the
> Foundation’s recently published Diff posts outlining our approach to pay
> visibility [13] and describing how we support a highly-distributed
> remote
> workforce [14]. I hope this level of detail will result in more
> good-faith
> conversations about what is, and what is not, possible to do with the
> resources that we have.
>
>
> Over the next month, all of us at the Wikimedia Foundation look forward to
> hearing more from you on the direction we are taking. We have tried to
> enable this in whatever form you prefer: on-wiki on Meta [15], project
> village pumps, and open calls both virtual and in person [16] that are
> being hosted over the coming weeks, many in partnership with global
> communities around the world. Your comments, reflections, and provocations
> will help improve what we have proposed to do before the Foundation’s Board
> of Trustees considers the plan and budget in their June meeting.
>
>
> I continue to welcome your direct engagement at miskander@wikimedia.org or
> on my talk page [17].
>
>
> Maryana
>
>
> Maryana Iskander
>
> Wikimedia Foundation CEO
>
>
> p.s. On a more personal note – in keeping with the tradition of
> transparency on additional board roles, earlier this year I shared with the
> Wikimedia Foundation Trustees that I am under consideration to join the
> board of Yale University, my law school alma mater. The alumni election
> process is underway now, and I will let you know the results when they are
> finalized.
>
>
> [1]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Chief_Executive_Officer/Updates/Year_One_Update
>
> [2]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Chief_Executive_Officer/Updates#Maryana_Iskander
>
> [3]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/March_2023_Meeting_Outcomes_from_Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_of_Trustees
>
> [4]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Leadership_team/Chief_Product_and_Technology_Officer/Selena%27s_Listening_Tour
>
> [5]
>
> https://diff.wikimedia.org/2023/04/17/we-are-in-this-mission-together-refreshing-the-values-of-the-wikimedia-foundation/
>
> [6]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024
>
> [7]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Draft/External_Trends
>
> [8]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Draft/External_Trends/Community_call_notes
>
> [9]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_Strategy/Recommendations/Summary
>
> [10]https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2017
>
> [11]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Draft/Product_%26_Technology#Wiki_Experiences
>
> [12]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_Strategy/Principles#Transparency_&_Accountability
>
> [13]
>
> https://diff.wikimedia.org/2023/02/17/wikimedia-foundation-remote-first-and-global-community-of-staff/
>
> [14]
>
> https://diff.wikimedia.org/2023/04/06/wikimedia-foundation-global-guidelines-policies-practices/
>
> [15]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024
>
> [16]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Collaboration
>
> [17]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/User_talk:MIskander-WMF
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 21:20:48 +0300
> From: Kimmo Virtanen <kimmo.virtanen@wikimedia.fi>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: 23 March: Invitation to Open Community Call
> on ChatGPT, generative AI, and Wikimedia
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAHJYWXEiKwVpggjYGTJoZgFR+kFhDn-v8Cb2b9bfFdeszgyYQw@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="0000000000008b706805f9a05e2d"
>
> Some interesting updates on current developments
>
> Open Assistant is open source ChatGPT clone with crowdsourced fine-tuning
> - https://open-assistant.io
>
> Redpajama is project for reproducing LLaMA and releasing the model under
> open source licence. Current status is that they have released the
> pre-training data
> - https://www.together.xyz/blog/redpajama
>
> Free-dolly is CC-BY-SA licenced fine-tuning dataset.
> -
>
> https://www.databricks.com/blog/2023/04/12/dolly-first-open-commercially-viable-instruction-tuned-llm
>
> LLM chat which runs in web browser (non-open source Vicuna-7B)
> - https://simonwillison.net/2023/Apr/16/web-llm/
>
> Afaik all of these are clear steps towards full open source LLM stack.
> Especially Open Assistant is especially interesting as it is focusing on
> crowdsourcing.
>
> Br,
> -- Kimmo Virtanen, Zache
>
> On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 8:43?PM Samuel Klein <meta.sj@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > At this point I guess I would recommend adding five or so
> >> g2.cores8.ram36.disk20 flavor VPSs to WMCS, with between one and three
> >> RTX A6000 GPUs each, plus a 1TB SSD each, which should cost under
> >> $60k. That should allow for very widely multilingual models somewhere
> >> between GPT-3.5 and 4 performance with current training rates.
> >>
> >
> > Having part of the cluster for this makes sense, even as what it is used
> > for changes over time.
> >
> >
> >> These models can be quantized into int4 weights which run on cell
> >> phones:
> >> https://github.com/rupeshs/alpaca.cpp/tree/linux-android-build-support
> >> It seems inevitable that we will someday include such LLMs with
> >> Internet-in-a-Box, and, why not also the primary mobile apps
> >>
> >
> > Eventually, yes. A good reason to renew attention to mobile as a
> canonical
> > wiki experience.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/R2KSXD3VE4MPGSIIYCPUMFXFPIY7D5CH/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 02:05:06 -0400
> From: Kunal Mehta <legoktm@debian.org>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Voting open in the
> seventeenth annual Picture of the Year contest
> To: wikimediaannounce-l@lists.wikimedia.org, Wikimedia Commons
> Discussion List <commons-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID: <773a1201-373c-28c7-d390-1c94eb8e993c@debian.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
>
> Hi all,
>
> Voting is now open in the seventeenth annual Picture of the Year
> contest: <https://w.wiki/6bcP> - please vote! The first round of voting
> will be open for 2 weeks. There are over 1,100 pictures being considered
> this year and several new categories.
>
> Any user with more than 75 edits before Jan. 1, 2023 is eligible to
> vote; if you're not sure the voting tool will automatically check for you.
>
> If you have any questions, please see the help page: <https://w.wiki/6bcQ
> >.
>
> Thanks,
> -- POTY Committee
> _______________________________________________
> Please note: all replies sent to this mailing list will be immediately
> directed to Wikimedia-l, the public mailing list of the Wikimedia
> community. For more information about Wikimedia-l:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> _______________________________________________
> WikimediaAnnounce-l mailing list --
> wikimediaannounce-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimediaannounce-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 10:57:52 +0100
> From: James Popoola <popoolaojames@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] WikiYouthCon Update
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>,
> Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org>,
> african-wikimedians@lists.wikimedia.org
> Message-ID:
> <CAJHeAUBqf54xoCz6c==ZxbQKOf5cMZ3=
> h8XWwAYwuRMMRk1MMA@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="00000000000013f8bd05f9ad7619"
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
>
> The Wikimedia Youth Conference 2023 scheduled to be held in Spain in
> September will be the first youth conference in the movement.
>
>
> The conference grant team is eager to provide all relevant support in order
> to ensure that the conference is successful. But in order to do this, more
> time other than what is available will be needed. Therefore, they did
> recommend that the conference be moved to 2024 in order to avail more time
> to work on addressing relevant needs where possible.
>
>
> We are therefore advised to keep our preparations still going. We also
> understand that we could use this additional time to strategize more on the
> conference planning.
>
>
> We know that we had made a call for the conference subcommittees. We will
> reach out to the selected applicants to explain how the engagement could
> look like given this circumstance.
>
>
> Beyond that, we will still be working on the conference design and
> planning. We hope to keep you informed of all the updates as they come.
>
>
> We are happy to answer any questions or concerns.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> James Popoola
>
> On behalf of the WikiYouthCon COT.
> --
> Best regards,
> James Popoola
> President, Wikimedia Fan Club University of Ilorin, Ilorin, Nigeria
> Co-founder, Wiki Loves SDGs Nigeria & TCD Africa
> Instagram <http://instagram.com/TheJamesPopoola> | Facebook
> <https://www.facebook.com/jamespopoola247> | Twitter
> <http://twitter.com/TheJamesPopoola> | Linkedin
> <http://linkedin.com/in/JamesPopoola> |Website
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:James_Moore200>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 06:48:55 -0400
> From: Tim Moody <tim@timmoody.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Graph Extension
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Message-ID:
> <
> CANis2dD+QnEkyEoCv1twRM06wFpwo9KYZrhA4siv-pbWcURkNw@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="0000000000005c660605f9ae2c16"
>
> Dear Wikimedians,
>
> Yesterday it was announced that the Graph extension has been disabled due
> to security vulnerabilities. Having the ability to visualize data is a
> powerful tool in presenting information within a wikipedia page, so it is
> great to have such an extension.
>
> But this could be the moment to reach out to Our World in Data (
> https://ourworldindata.org/), who have an even better set of data
> visualization tools, based on similar libraries, that are actively
> maintained by a strong community. Perhaps there is an opportunity for
> collaboration. This will not be a short term solution, as forging OWID
> software into an extension will take some time and backwards compatibility
> is essential. But in the medium to long term it will result in better tools
> and more compelling wiki pages.
>
> I hope the community and WMF will support such an approach.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tim Moody
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 20:34:05 +0900
> From: James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Graph Extension
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <CAF1en7WX0H=
> eCqdqV_JOWeFCF9s4qb9C3tdzhcimPrdt9j_B5A@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="000000000000e3604205f9aecddd"
>
> And Tim has already done some amazing work getting OWID to function within
> a mediawiki install. One can see examples of these graphs here
>
> https://www.mdwiki.org/wiki/WikiProjectMed:OWID#How_to_use
>
> All about 3,000 graphs can be seen here
>
> https://owidm.wmcloud.org/
>
> James
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 7:49?PM Tim Moody <tim@timmoody.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Wikimedians,
> >
> > Yesterday it was announced that the Graph extension has been disabled due
> > to security vulnerabilities. Having the ability to visualize data is a
> > powerful tool in presenting information within a wikipedia page, so it is
> > great to have such an extension.
> >
> > But this could be the moment to reach out to Our World in Data (
> > https://ourworldindata.org/), who have an even better set of data
> > visualization tools, based on similar libraries, that are actively
> > maintained by a strong community. Perhaps there is an opportunity for
> > collaboration. This will not be a short term solution, as forging OWID
> > software into an extension will take some time and backwards
> compatibility
> > is essential. But in the medium to long term it will result in better
> tools
> > and more compelling wiki pages.
> >
> > I hope the community and WMF will support such an approach.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Tim Moody
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/U5GEMXBCBHITM7NACGH2VVYDXVRVJVVA/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 11:44:05 +0000
> From: Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Graph Extension
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID: <DB9P193MB1324D0C30D17EAF5E5887AB5EA629@DB9P193MB1324.EUR
> P193.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB9P193MB1324D0
> C30D17EAF5E5887AB5EA629DB9P193MB1324EURP_"
>
> Dear all,
> There are thousands of articles in many languages using Graph extension.
> At the Basque Wikipedia we are running a project to add climate data using
> it, and we were presenting it in some days. Is there any news on this?
>
> Best,
>
> Galder
> ________________________________
> From: James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 1:34 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Graph Extension
>
> And Tim has already done some amazing work getting OWID to function within
> a mediawiki install. One can see examples of these graphs here
>
> https://www.mdwiki.org/wiki/WikiProjectMed:OWID#How_to_use
>
> All about 3,000 graphs can be seen here
>
> https://owidm.wmcloud.org/
>
> James
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 7:49?PM Tim Moody <tim@timmoody.com<mailto:
> tim@timmoody.com>> wrote:
> Dear Wikimedians,
>
> Yesterday it was announced that the Graph extension has been disabled due
> to security vulnerabilities. Having the ability to visualize data is a
> powerful tool in presenting information within a wikipedia page, so it is
> great to have such an extension.
>
> But this could be the moment to reach out to Our World in Data (
> https://ourworldindata.org/), who have an even better set of data
> visualization tools, based on similar libraries, that are actively
> maintained by a strong community. Perhaps there is an opportunity for
> collaboration. This will not be a short term solution, as forging OWID
> software into an extension will take some time and backwards compatibility
> is essential. But in the medium to long term it will result in better tools
> and more compelling wiki pages.
>
> I hope the community and WMF will support such an approach.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tim Moody
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:
> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/U5GEMXBCBHITM7NACGH2VVYDXVRVJVVA/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 11:45:50 +0000
> From: Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Graph Extension
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID: <DB9P193MB13246B980253134B18AD4EBEEA629@DB9P193MB1324.EUR
> P193.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB9P193MB13246B
> 980253134B18AD4EBEEA629DB9P193MB1324EURP_"
>
> The Basque Wikimedians User Group is working in the deployment of OWID and
> the security review is pending: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T324989.
> As always, we have invested time and money on this, but it seems stalled in
> the Foundation side.
> ________________________________
> From: Tim Moody <tim@timmoody.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 12:48 PM
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Graph Extension
>
> Dear Wikimedians,
>
> Yesterday it was announced that the Graph extension has been disabled due
> to security vulnerabilities. Having the ability to visualize data is a
> powerful tool in presenting information within a wikipedia page, so it is
> great to have such an extension.
>
> But this could be the moment to reach out to Our World in Data (
> https://ourworldindata.org/), who have an even better set of data
> visualization tools, based on similar libraries, that are actively
> maintained by a strong community. Perhaps there is an opportunity for
> collaboration. This will not be a short term solution, as forging OWID
> software into an extension will take some time and backwards compatibility
> is essential. But in the medium to long term it will result in better tools
> and more compelling wiki pages.
>
> I hope the community and WMF will support such an approach.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tim Moody
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 790, Issue 1
> *******************************************
>
--
Lucy Crompton-Reid (she/her)
Chief Executive
there - and I'm sure many others across the organisation - have thought a
lot about the staff (and salary) implications of being an international
project with a US HQ. One particular question that seems to come up is
about whether salaries should be adjusted to the cost of living in a
particular region, which I personally agree with for the reasons that
Felipe outlined.
I do find this comment interesting: "WMF already has many employees that
are based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate."
I don't know who determines whether employment conditions are moral or
otherwise? As a (not entirely random) indicator, the minimum required paid
maternity leave in the U.S. is zero weeks, whereas in Romania it's a year.
Lucy
On Wed, 19 Apr 2023 at 13:05, <wikimedia-l-request@lists.wikimedia.org>
wrote:
> Send Wikimedia-l mailing list submissions to
> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe, please visit
>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wikimedia-l.lists.wikimedia.org/
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> wikimedia-l-owner@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Wikimedia-l digest..."
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour
> (Felipe Schenone)
> 2. Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour
> (The Cunctator)
> 3. Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour (Gnangarra)
> 4. Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening tour
> (Amir Sarabadani)
> 5. Re: Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 award ceremony announcement
> (Ciell Wikipedia)
> 6. Re: Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 award ceremony announcement
> (Kassia Echavarri-Queen)
> 7. Some Updates & Foundation’s 2023-2024 Annual Plan
> (Maryana Iskander)
> 8. Re: 23 March: Invitation to Open Community Call on ChatGPT,
> generative AI, and Wikimedia
> (Kimmo Virtanen)
> 9. [Wikimedia Announcements] Voting open in the seventeenth annual
> Picture of the Year contest
> (Kunal Mehta)
> 10. WikiYouthCon Update (James Popoola)
> 11. Graph Extension (Tim Moody)
> 12. Re: Graph Extension (James Heilman)
> 13. Re: Graph Extension (Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga)
> 14. Re: Graph Extension (Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 09:22:21 -0300
> From: Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening
> tour
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <
> CABbLfopUW11bTNCSFGbE8Dq6TgXvJjofeiZfm-tyGXo68kvJYw@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="00000000000042bac405f99b5eed"
>
> Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a month
> means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you want, buy
> food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough left over to
> buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick Google search
> suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs around USD 4000,
> while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be wrong, but judging
> from https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can
> see that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
> 16,000 a month.
>
> Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even USD
> 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
> bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding labor
> laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
> (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
> just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not sure
> that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of
> WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > or the 3am meetings
> >
> > On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving
> >> money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
> >> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries. Much
> >> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth
> engaging
> >> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden
> of
> >> travel.
> >>
> >> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
> >>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
> >>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all,
> and
> >>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to
> >>>>> Romania or something)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
> >>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is
> part of
> >>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
> >>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to
> skills and
> >>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that are
> >>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
> >>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little
> bit...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
> >>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
> >>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a
> maintainer (or
> >>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I
> can
> >>>>>> example a few.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why
> >>>>> this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one.
> Here's
> >>>>> a few others off the top of my head:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
> >>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything
> that they
> >>>>> own.
> >>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
> >>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community
> members
> >>>>> angry.
> >>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance to
> >>>>> deprecate functionality.
> >>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
> >>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
> >>>>> requests is not a roadmap).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And,
> >>>>> not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
> >>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be
> deprecated!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
> involved,
> >>>>> to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dan
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
> >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Boodarwun
> >>>> Gnangarra
> >>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>> guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>> Public archives at
> >>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
> >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> guidelines
> >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>> Public archives at
> >>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Boodarwun
> >> Gnangarra
> >> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >> koortaboodjar'
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > Boodarwun
> > Gnangarra
> > 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> > koortaboodjar'
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 08:29:42 -0400
> From: The Cunctator <cunctator@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening
> tour
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <
> CACOqVVugg9K_So4J7VeRbbhGK+LYfvn-28qMWyTmxPHzcZejag@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="000000000000f80f4705f99b7600"
>
> I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite
> money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the
> work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will go
> a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit
> having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and salary
> differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and
> should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But
> like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a
> > month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you
> > want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough
> left
> > over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick
> > Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs
> > around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be
> > wrong, but judging from
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see
> > that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
> > 16,000 a month.
> >
> > Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even
> USD
> > 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
> > bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding
> labor
> > laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
> > (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
> > just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not
> sure
> > that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of
> > WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> or the 3am meetings
> >>
> >> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for
> saving
> >>> money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
> >>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries.
> Much
> >>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth
> engaging
> >>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden
> of
> >>> travel.
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
> >>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
> >>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all,
> and
> >>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to
> >>>>>> Romania or something)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
> >>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is
> part of
> >>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
> >>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to
> skills and
> >>>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that
> are
> >>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com
> >
> >>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little
> bit...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
> >>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
> >>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a
> maintainer (or
> >>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I
> can
> >>>>>>> example a few.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why
> >>>>>> this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only
> one. Here's
> >>>>>> a few others off the top of my head:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
> >>>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain
> everything that they
> >>>>>> own.
> >>>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
> >>>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community
> members
> >>>>>> angry.
> >>>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance
> >>>>>> to deprecate functionality.
> >>>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
> >>>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
> >>>>>> requests is not a roadmap).
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head.
> And,
> >>>>>> not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
> >>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be
> deprecated!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
> >>>>>> involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Dan
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> Boodarwun
> >>>>> Gnangarra
> >>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>>>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
> >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>> guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>> Public archives at
> >>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
> >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Boodarwun
> >>> Gnangarra
> >>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Boodarwun
> >> Gnangarra
> >> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >> koortaboodjar'
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> Public archives at
> >>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/FY56RA7EBK6LF4CYLJJNMD6IU6YAG74Z/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 20:44:04 +0800
> From: Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening
> tour
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <CAD==kbK7wJUrhxapDWP-pmJHHtK0Q_1vj10+hPn=
> wckvS_ceLg@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="0000000000004b936005f99baa2c"
>
> The point here is that getting rid of staff in one country, purely to hire
> someone in another country to do the same job for significantly less, is
> morally bankrupt. The same issue goes with hiring new people solely from
> selected countries for the same reason. We are a global community and that
> means we should seek out people regardless of their location or the labour
> laws.
>
> That also translates to other areas of the community, where we chose not to
> even consider achieving equity in global activities. We need to do more to
> balance equity through other means.
>
> Yes this has drifted away from the pure software issues, being morally
> loose "because we can" should never be the solution to any problem.
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 20:30, The Cunctator <cunctator@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite
> > money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the
> > work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will
> go
> > a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit
> > having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and
> salary
> > differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and
> > should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But
> > like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a
> >> month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you
> >> want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough
> left
> >> over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick
> >> Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs
> >> around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be
> >> wrong, but judging from
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see
> >> that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
> >> 16,000 a month.
> >>
> >> Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even
> >> USD 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
> >> bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding
> labor
> >> laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
> >> (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
> >> just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not
> sure
> >> that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all
> of
> >> WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> or the 3am meetings
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for
> >>>> saving money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the
> pool of
> >>>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries.
> Much
> >>>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth
> engaging
> >>>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the
> burden of
> >>>> travel.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
> >>>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
> >>>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at
> all, and
> >>>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF
> >>>>>>> to Romania or something)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
> >>>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is
> part of
> >>>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
> >>>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to
> skills and
> >>>>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that
> are
> >>>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions
> dominate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <
> djgwiki@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little
> >>>>>>> bit...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com
> >
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
> >>>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
> >>>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a
> maintainer (or
> >>>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I
> can
> >>>>>>>> example a few.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason
> >>>>>>> why this situation has come about, but it's far from being the
> only one.
> >>>>>>> Here's a few others off the top of my head:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
> >>>>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain
> everything that they
> >>>>>>> own.
> >>>>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
> >>>>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community
> members
> >>>>>>> angry.
> >>>>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance
> >>>>>>> to deprecate functionality.
> >>>>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
> >>>>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
> >>>>>>> requests is not a roadmap).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head.
> >>>>>>> And, not everyone one of those always applies to every situation,
> e.g. I
> >>>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be
> deprecated!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
> >>>>>>> involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dan
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> >>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Boodarwun
> >>>>>> Gnangarra
> >>>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>>>>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
> >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Boodarwun
> >>>> Gnangarra
> >>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Boodarwun
> >>> Gnangarra
> >>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> guidelines
> >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>> Public archives at
> >>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> Public archives at
> >>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/FY56RA7EBK6LF4CYLJJNMD6IU6YAG74Z/
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/GD2STU5IK46XFQZSVEM4SMNYCGUTLVZN/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
> --
> Boodarwun
> Gnangarra
> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> koortaboodjar'
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 14:50:05 +0200
> From: Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: [Wikitech-l] Re: Reflecting on my listening
> tour
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <CA+ttme0nP8_xU1AtDFmxdPwxuz_9mNwJi8S_S9F1maeasBB_=
> w@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="00000000000059bc9005f99bc110"
>
> The discussion about where to hire is way more nuanced than it looks. The
> world doesn't split between SF with astronomical salaries and people who
> don't have access to clean water but are very cheap to hire.
> Some points to consider:
> Other cities in the US are cheaper to hire but with comparable (if not
> better in some cases) standards of living.
> Many European countries are way cheaper to hire. I'm comparing general tech
> salaries, not WMF ones, Germany is basically half of the SF and Poland is
> roughly one fourth. Both have decent standards of living and arguably even
> better labour protection laws. Similarly the UK, Spain, Italy and France.
> Also there are more things to consider: Talent pools, some countries have
> strong tech communities like Greece, Poland, Ukraine and some countries
> don't. Or We can't hire from residents of some countries due to safety and
> security reasons, We also need to make sure WMF is a global community of
> diverse staff.
>
> Striking the balance between all of the above is not easy.
>
>
>
> Am Di., 18. Apr. 2023 um 14:30 Uhr schrieb The Cunctator <
> cunctator@gmail.com>:
>
> > I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite
> > money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the
> > work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will
> go
> > a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit
> > having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and
> salary
> > differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and
> > should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But
> > like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a
> >> month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you
> >> want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough
> left
> >> over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick
> >> Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs
> >> around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be
> >> wrong, but judging from
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see
> >> that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
> >> 16,000 a month.
> >>
> >> Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even
> >> USD 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
> >> bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding
> labor
> >> laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
> >> (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
> >> just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not
> sure
> >> that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all
> of
> >> WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> or the 3am meetings
> >>>
> >>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for
> >>>> saving money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the
> pool of
> >>>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries.
> Much
> >>>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth
> engaging
> >>>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the
> burden of
> >>>> travel.
> >>>>
> >>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
> >>>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
> >>>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at
> all, and
> >>>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF
> >>>>>>> to Romania or something)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
> >>>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is
> part of
> >>>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
> >>>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to
> skills and
> >>>>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that
> are
> >>>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions
> dominate.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <
> djgwiki@gmail.com>
> >>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little
> >>>>>>> bit...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com
> >
> >>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
> >>>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
> >>>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a
> maintainer (or
> >>>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I
> can
> >>>>>>>> example a few.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason
> >>>>>>> why this situation has come about, but it's far from being the
> only one.
> >>>>>>> Here's a few others off the top of my head:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
> >>>>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain
> everything that they
> >>>>>>> own.
> >>>>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
> >>>>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community
> members
> >>>>>>> angry.
> >>>>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance
> >>>>>>> to deprecate functionality.
> >>>>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
> >>>>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
> >>>>>>> requests is not a roadmap).
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head.
> >>>>>>> And, not everyone one of those always applies to every situation,
> e.g. I
> >>>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be
> deprecated!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
> >>>>>>> involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Dan
> >>>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
> >>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> >>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> --
> >>>>>> Boodarwun
> >>>>>> Gnangarra
> >>>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>>>>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
> >>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>>> guidelines at:
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>>> Public archives at
> >>>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
> >>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Boodarwun
> >>>> Gnangarra
> >>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Boodarwun
> >>> Gnangarra
> >>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> >>> koortaboodjar'
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> guidelines
> >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>> Public archives at
> >>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> Public archives at
> >>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/FY56RA7EBK6LF4CYLJJNMD6IU6YAG74Z/
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/GD2STU5IK46XFQZSVEM4SMNYCGUTLVZN/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
> --
> Amir (he/him)
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 17:09:05 +0200
> From: Ciell Wikipedia <ciell.wikipedia@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 award ceremony
> announcement
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAGarBBchuRYreKGWn3obqT8XAewqOVZ7SrAuDVOEvktrzvsawQ@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="00000000000059e13405f99db2fb"
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Today it's my pleasure to share with you the winners of WLM 2022.
> They are listed in the blogpost on our website
> <https://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/2022_winners/>, and on the page with
> also all the national winners on Commons
> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2022_winners>.
>
> If you'd rather have a look at the images one by one on Commons, this is
> the list with links:
>
> 1.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:????????????????????? 8.jpg
> 2.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fetssund_Lenser.jpg
> 3.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jaszczurówka at Winter.jpg
> 4.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zamek_Czocha,_widok_z_drona.jpg
> 5.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PUTRA_MOSQUE_ARCHITECTURE.jpg
> 6.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mole_Antonelliana_di_sera.jpg
> 7.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Suha pri Škofji Loki - Cerkev
> sv. Janeza Krstnika(EŠD710).jpg
> 8.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PalaciodoplanaltoFR.jpg
> 9.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Saghmosavank_at_winter.jpg
> 10.
>
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tyssedal_Kraftverk,_early_morning.jpg
> 11.
>
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Biserici_de_lemn_din_Hiriseni_si_Girbova_in_Muzeul_Satului.jpg
> 12.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nowy ?migród, Cmentarz ?ydowski
> w Nowym ?migrodzie DZolopa 2015-07-18 103951 0055.jpg
> 13.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Malmöhus slott 2022.jpg
> 14.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baszta Prochowa, Zamek
> Ksi??.jpg
> 15.
>
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mosteiro_da_Serra_do_Pilar_(1).jpg
> The honorary mentions and runners up are the following:
>
> <
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mosteiro_da_Serra_do_Pilar_(1).jpg
> >
> 16.
>
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Milky-way_above_St.Mary_Magdalene_Chapel_in_dingli.jpg
> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al_Hakem_Mosque.jpg>
> 17.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al_Hakem_Mosque.jpg
> <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Doors_of_Jantar_Mantar.jpg>
> 18.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Doors_of_Jantar_Mantar.jpg
> 19.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Night view of Safdurjung's
> Tomb.jpg
> 20.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bad Homburg - Erlöserkirche -
> Apsis (3124).jpg
> 21.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:?????.jpg
> 22.
>
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blackpool_-_North_Pier_-_20220917173127.jpg
> 23.
>
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hayravank_monastery_with_frozen_Sevan_lake.jpg
> 24.
>
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Faro_blanco_detail_9_sept_22.jpg
> 25.
>
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mellieha_Church_1.jpg
>
>
> Enjoy!!
>
> Best,
> Ciell
>
>
> Op za 15 apr 2023 om 00:04 schreef Olga Viota <olga.lidi@gmail.com>:
>
> > Thanks for share the news!
> >
> > El vie., 14 de abril de 2023 2:59 p. m., Ndahiro Derrick Alter <
> > ndahiroderric@gmail.com> escribió:
> >
> >> Thanks for updates Ciell , I am eagerly waiting for the winning photos
> >> for 2022 ????
> >>
> >> On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 at 19:13 Ciell Wikipedia <ciell.wikipedia@gmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi everyone,
> >>>
> >>> I am excited to share with you that next Tuesday April 18, the winners
> >>> of Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 will be announced.
> >>> Wiki Loves Monuments is a federated photo competition around built
> >>> heritage, which is held annually since 2010.
> >>>
> >>> As always, we'll be hosting our award ceremony through our social media
> >>> channels on Twitter <https://twitter.com/wikimonuments> and Instagram
> >>> <https://www.instagram.com/wikilovesmonuments/>, where we will have a
> >>> countdown from the number 25 to number 1.
> >>> We have scheduled two countdown windows: we will announce the honorary
> >>> mentions on Monday April 17, starting at 6pm UTC with number 25 and
> >>> counting down to number 16 at 10.30pm, announcing one image per 30
> minutes.
> >>> We'll have a little break after that and will return with the number
> 15 at
> >>> 7am on Tuesday April 18 and again announcing one winner per half hour,
> to
> >>> finish with the celebration of the international winner of Wiki Loves
> >>> Monuments 2022 at 2pm UTC.
> >>>
> >>> Please keep an eye out for our posts, and join us in admiring these
> >>> beautiful images of built heritage around the world, and
> congratulating the
> >>> winners.
> >>> A gallery with all the winning photos will be published on our own blog
> >>> <https://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/> and on the WMF Diff site
> >>> afterwards.
> >>>
> >>> Our thanks go to the national organisers, the national juries and, of
> >>> course, the 2022 WLM international jury, without whom none of this
> would
> >>> have been possible.
> >>>
> >>> On behalf of the Wiki Loves Monuments international organising team,
> >>>
> >>> Best,
> >>> Ciell
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> guidelines
> >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>> Public archives at
> >>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/RMJ3JJGCHZQUKLO6P63FMNN6JZ3P7OXY/
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>
> >> --
> >> derrick
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> Public archives at
> >>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/2DDBU3FTOYHO7TWD4L4IZECMRMED7JU7/
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/A4ESHTW2BWWNECEICJU2AA5VL5MLTSNX/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 10:40:11 -0700
> From: Kassia Echavarri-Queen <kechavarriqueen@wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 award ceremony
> announcement
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAL8QfoejGo4FycpniQds_2eX4PDFo8oNXSKN1iunR-ud-DexMQ@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="0000000000004805d305f99fcdfc"
>
> Absolutely beautiful! Congratulations to all the winners, participants and
> organizers!!!
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:10?AM Ciell Wikipedia <ciell.wikipedia@gmail.com
> >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Today it's my pleasure to share with you the winners of WLM 2022.
> > They are listed in the blogpost on our website
> > <https://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/2022_winners/>, and on the page with
> > also all the national winners on Commons
> > <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wiki_Loves_Monuments_2022_winners>.
> >
> > If you'd rather have a look at the images one by one on Commons, this is
> > the list with links:
> >
> > 1.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:????????????????????? 8.jpg
> > 2.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Fetssund_Lenser.jpg
> > 3.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Jaszczurówka at Winter.jpg
> > 4.
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zamek_Czocha,_widok_z_drona.jpg
> > 5.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PUTRA_MOSQUE_ARCHITECTURE.jpg
> > 6.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mole_Antonelliana_di_sera.jpg
> > 7.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Suha pri Škofji Loki - Cerkev
> > sv. Janeza Krstnika(EŠD710).jpg
> > 8.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:PalaciodoplanaltoFR.jpg
> > 9.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Saghmosavank_at_winter.jpg
> > 10.
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tyssedal_Kraftverk,_early_morning.jpg
> > 11.
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Biserici_de_lemn_din_Hiriseni_si_Girbova_in_Muzeul_Satului.jpg
> > 12.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nowy ?migród, Cmentarz
> > ?ydowski w Nowym ?migrodzie DZolopa 2015-07-18 103951 0055.jpg
> > 13.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Malmöhus slott 2022.jpg
> > 14.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baszta Prochowa, Zamek
> > Ksi??.jpg
> > 15.
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mosteiro_da_Serra_do_Pilar_(1).jpg
> > The honorary mentions and runners up are the following:
> >
> > <
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mosteiro_da_Serra_do_Pilar_(1).jpg
> >
> > 16.
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:The_Milky-way_above_St.Mary_Magdalene_Chapel_in_dingli.jpg
> > <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al_Hakem_Mosque.jpg>
> > 17.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al_Hakem_Mosque.jpg
> > <https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Doors_of_Jantar_Mantar.jpg>
> > 18.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Doors_of_Jantar_Mantar.jpg
> > 19.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Night view of Safdurjung's
> > Tomb.jpg
> > 20.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bad Homburg - Erlöserkirche -
> > Apsis (3124).jpg
> > 21.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:?????.jpg
> > 22.
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Blackpool_-_North_Pier_-_20220917173127.jpg
> > 23.
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hayravank_monastery_with_frozen_Sevan_lake.jpg
> > 24.
> >
> >
> >
> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Faro_blanco_detail_9_sept_22.jpg
> > 25.
> >
> > https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Mellieha_Church_1.jpg
> >
> >
> > Enjoy!!
> >
> > Best,
> > Ciell
> >
> >
> > Op za 15 apr 2023 om 00:04 schreef Olga Viota <olga.lidi@gmail.com>:
> >
> >> Thanks for share the news!
> >>
> >> El vie., 14 de abril de 2023 2:59 p. m., Ndahiro Derrick Alter <
> >> ndahiroderric@gmail.com> escribió:
> >>
> >>> Thanks for updates Ciell , I am eagerly waiting for the winning photos
> >>> for 2022 ????
> >>>
> >>> On Fri, 14 Apr 2023 at 19:13 Ciell Wikipedia <
> ciell.wikipedia@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hi everyone,
> >>>>
> >>>> I am excited to share with you that next Tuesday April 18, the winners
> >>>> of Wiki Loves Monuments 2022 will be announced.
> >>>> Wiki Loves Monuments is a federated photo competition around built
> >>>> heritage, which is held annually since 2010.
> >>>>
> >>>> As always, we'll be hosting our award ceremony through our social
> media
> >>>> channels on Twitter <https://twitter.com/wikimonuments> and Instagram
> >>>> <https://www.instagram.com/wikilovesmonuments/>, where we will have a
> >>>> countdown from the number 25 to number 1.
> >>>> We have scheduled two countdown windows: we will announce the honorary
> >>>> mentions on Monday April 17, starting at 6pm UTC with number 25 and
> >>>> counting down to number 16 at 10.30pm, announcing one image per 30
> minutes.
> >>>> We'll have a little break after that and will return with the number
> 15 at
> >>>> 7am on Tuesday April 18 and again announcing one winner per half
> hour, to
> >>>> finish with the celebration of the international winner of Wiki Loves
> >>>> Monuments 2022 at 2pm UTC.
> >>>>
> >>>> Please keep an eye out for our posts, and join us in admiring these
> >>>> beautiful images of built heritage around the world, and
> congratulating the
> >>>> winners.
> >>>> A gallery with all the winning photos will be published on our own
> blog
> >>>> <https://www.wikilovesmonuments.org/> and on the WMF Diff site
> >>>> afterwards.
> >>>>
> >>>> Our thanks go to the national organisers, the national juries and, of
> >>>> course, the 2022 WLM international jury, without whom none of this
> would
> >>>> have been possible.
> >>>>
> >>>> On behalf of the Wiki Loves Monuments international organising team,
> >>>>
> >>>> Best,
> >>>> Ciell
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> >>>> guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
> >>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>>> Public archives at
> >>>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/RMJ3JJGCHZQUKLO6P63FMNN6JZ3P7OXY/
> >>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> derrick
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
> guidelines
> >>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >>> Public archives at
> >>>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/2DDBU3FTOYHO7TWD4L4IZECMRMED7JU7/
> >>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> >> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> >> Public archives at
> >>
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/A4ESHTW2BWWNECEICJU2AA5VL5MLTSNX/
> >> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/H6GTLQ4I3TBDL4BEIVFYHL22JPBMF674/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 12:39:47 -0500
> From: Maryana Iskander <miskander@wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Some Updates & Foundation’s 2023-2024 Annual
> Plan
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAOmY16h4QXsfE4Hv22ZsCvWVEqHY0H9p+BPBxStZiCf14cus+w@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="00000000000056fbbc05f99fcde2"
>
> This message is being translated into other languages on Meta-wiki.
>
> ???????? • español • français • português • ??????? • ??
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Chief_Executive_Officer/Updates/Annual_plan_update
> >
>
> You can help with more languages.
> <
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Chief_Executive_Officer/Updates/Annual_plan_update
> >
>
>
> Hi everyone,
>
>
> As I near my one-and-a-half year mark as CEO of the Wikimedia Foundation, I
> intend to continue providing updates here and elsewhere every few months
> based on your ongoing feedback. (You can find my note from January 2023
> here [1], and all of my past letters on Meta [2]).
>
>
> My top three priorities have remained consistent: (1) strategy/planning,
> (2) leadership, and (3) culture/values. On strategy, Wikimedia Foundation
> Board of Trustees Chair Nataliia Tymkiv recently shared the outcomes [3] of
> a strategic planning retreat that brought together Foundation leadership
> with the Wikimedia Endowment Board and members of the Movement Charter
> Drafting Committee. On planning, I will share more below.
>
>
> On leadership, last Friday, our Chief Product & Technology Officer Selena
> Deckelmann reflected on her first six months on the job. Selena named some
> of the big issues [4] she hopes to help us all tackle in the years to come.
> Thank you to those who have already given her some initial reactions.
>
>
> Finally, I continue to believe more strongly than ever that culture and
> values will be the most sustainable way to make lasting, positive change
> together – on this front, the Wikimedia Foundation will complete a refresh
> of our organizational values [5] by July.
>
>
> The main purpose of this letter is to point you to the Foundation’s draft
> annual plan [6] for our coming fiscal year (July 2023 through June 2024).
> One of the first tasks I named when I started this job was to reimagine the
> Foundation’s annual planning processes. Last year’s plan, my first at the
> Foundation, was focused on radically changing how we did our work. This
> included organizing our work more regionally to better respond to varying
> needs around the world, and also leveling up our own performance,
> accountability, and internal collaboration. This has put us in a better
> position to more meaningfully describe what we can do in the year ahead.
>
>
> Five quick observations about the draft plan before you hopefully take time
> to look at the 17,000+ word document:
>
>
>
> 1.
>
> Looking outward: Like last year, the plan starts by looking outward and
> persistently asking ‘what does the world need from us now’? This
> question
> remains at the heart of the Foundation’s approach to strategy and
> planning. Earlier
> this year, we shared external trends [7] impacting the mission of free
> knowledge, and built on those trends with a well-attended community
> conversation about recent advancements in generative AI and what that
> may
> mean for the projects. Your reflections [8] on these trends is probably
> the most important way to help make sure we’re all focused on the right
> things over the long term.
>
>
>
> 1.
>
> Anchored in movement strategy: For the second year, the plan is firmly
> and unambiguously anchored in movement strategy. Our intention is to
> connect the Foundation’s work even more deeply with the Movement
> Strategy
> Recommendations [9] for more rapid progress towards the 2030 Strategic
> Direction [10]. This is made actionable in our commitments to advancing
> knowledge equity, growing the resource base for community-driven
> priorities, and making sure the Foundation’s own effectiveness
> measurably
> improves from learning and iteration.
>
>
>
> 1.
>
> Our role in Product & Technology: Wikimedia’s people-centered movement
> is powered by product and technology delivered by the Foundation and
> volunteers. We have tried to more intentionally describe our unique role
> as the platform provider supporting communities who are collaborating
> on a
> massive scale. The bulk of this effort, called “Wiki Experiences,”[11]
> recognizes that volunteers are at the heart of the Wikimedian process of
> sensemaking and knowledge creation, and prioritizes established editors
> (including those with extended rights, like admins, stewards,
> patrollers,
> and moderators of all kinds, also known as functionaries) to ensure that
> they have the right tools for the critical work they do every day to
> expand
> and improve quality content, as well as manage community processes.
>
>
>
> 1.
>
> Slower growth and trade-offs: As you will see in the draft plan, an
> important driver of multi-year strategic planning will focus on the
> structure of the Foundation’s budget, future financial projections, and
> possible revenue/product trade-offs. As I shared in my note in January,
> given the revenue shortfall from the December English fundraising
> campaign,
> as well as an uncertain global economic outlook, the Foundation is
> projecting reduced expenses and slower growth than in past years. Over
> the
> past month, we have made internal budget cuts, prioritizing
> non-personnel
> expenses but also reducing staffing by 5 percent. These difficult
> decisions
> were made to support a more sustainable trajectory in expenses for the
> coming few years, and also to maintain our overall funding levels to
> movement partners (including more funding in all regions while
> prioritizing
> proportionally larger growth in underrepresented regions).
>
>
>
> 1.
>
> More granular information about how the Foundation operates. To increase
> visibility and accountability [12], this annual plan includes more
> detailed
> financial projections, such as various budget breakdowns of how we
> allocate
> our resources. It also shares more granular organizational information,
> such as our department goals, people processes, global guidelines, and
> compensation principles. This is meant to complement some of the
> Foundation’s recently published Diff posts outlining our approach to pay
> visibility [13] and describing how we support a highly-distributed
> remote
> workforce [14]. I hope this level of detail will result in more
> good-faith
> conversations about what is, and what is not, possible to do with the
> resources that we have.
>
>
> Over the next month, all of us at the Wikimedia Foundation look forward to
> hearing more from you on the direction we are taking. We have tried to
> enable this in whatever form you prefer: on-wiki on Meta [15], project
> village pumps, and open calls both virtual and in person [16] that are
> being hosted over the coming weeks, many in partnership with global
> communities around the world. Your comments, reflections, and provocations
> will help improve what we have proposed to do before the Foundation’s Board
> of Trustees considers the plan and budget in their June meeting.
>
>
> I continue to welcome your direct engagement at miskander@wikimedia.org or
> on my talk page [17].
>
>
> Maryana
>
>
> Maryana Iskander
>
> Wikimedia Foundation CEO
>
>
> p.s. On a more personal note – in keeping with the tradition of
> transparency on additional board roles, earlier this year I shared with the
> Wikimedia Foundation Trustees that I am under consideration to join the
> board of Yale University, my law school alma mater. The alumni election
> process is underway now, and I will let you know the results when they are
> finalized.
>
>
> [1]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Chief_Executive_Officer/Updates/Year_One_Update
>
> [2]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Chief_Executive_Officer/Updates#Maryana_Iskander
>
> [3]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_noticeboard/March_2023_Meeting_Outcomes_from_Wikimedia_Foundation_Board_of_Trustees
>
> [4]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Leadership_team/Chief_Product_and_Technology_Officer/Selena%27s_Listening_Tour
>
> [5]
>
> https://diff.wikimedia.org/2023/04/17/we-are-in-this-mission-together-refreshing-the-values-of-the-wikimedia-foundation/
>
> [6]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024
>
> [7]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Draft/External_Trends
>
> [8]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Draft/External_Trends/Community_call_notes
>
> [9]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_Strategy/Recommendations/Summary
>
> [10]https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Strategy/Wikimedia_movement/2017
>
> [11]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Draft/Product_%26_Technology#Wiki_Experiences
>
> [12]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Movement_Strategy/Principles#Transparency_&_Accountability
>
> [13]
>
> https://diff.wikimedia.org/2023/02/17/wikimedia-foundation-remote-first-and-global-community-of-staff/
>
> [14]
>
> https://diff.wikimedia.org/2023/04/06/wikimedia-foundation-global-guidelines-policies-practices/
>
> [15]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024
>
> [16]
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_Annual_Plan/2023-2024/Collaboration
>
> [17]
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:MyLanguage/User_talk:MIskander-WMF
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 21:20:48 +0300
> From: Kimmo Virtanen <kimmo.virtanen@wikimedia.fi>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: 23 March: Invitation to Open Community Call
> on ChatGPT, generative AI, and Wikimedia
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <
> CAHJYWXEiKwVpggjYGTJoZgFR+kFhDn-v8Cb2b9bfFdeszgyYQw@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="0000000000008b706805f9a05e2d"
>
> Some interesting updates on current developments
>
> Open Assistant is open source ChatGPT clone with crowdsourced fine-tuning
> - https://open-assistant.io
>
> Redpajama is project for reproducing LLaMA and releasing the model under
> open source licence. Current status is that they have released the
> pre-training data
> - https://www.together.xyz/blog/redpajama
>
> Free-dolly is CC-BY-SA licenced fine-tuning dataset.
> -
>
> https://www.databricks.com/blog/2023/04/12/dolly-first-open-commercially-viable-instruction-tuned-llm
>
> LLM chat which runs in web browser (non-open source Vicuna-7B)
> - https://simonwillison.net/2023/Apr/16/web-llm/
>
> Afaik all of these are clear steps towards full open source LLM stack.
> Especially Open Assistant is especially interesting as it is focusing on
> crowdsourcing.
>
> Br,
> -- Kimmo Virtanen, Zache
>
> On Mon, Apr 3, 2023 at 8:43?PM Samuel Klein <meta.sj@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > At this point I guess I would recommend adding five or so
> >> g2.cores8.ram36.disk20 flavor VPSs to WMCS, with between one and three
> >> RTX A6000 GPUs each, plus a 1TB SSD each, which should cost under
> >> $60k. That should allow for very widely multilingual models somewhere
> >> between GPT-3.5 and 4 performance with current training rates.
> >>
> >
> > Having part of the cluster for this makes sense, even as what it is used
> > for changes over time.
> >
> >
> >> These models can be quantized into int4 weights which run on cell
> >> phones:
> >> https://github.com/rupeshs/alpaca.cpp/tree/linux-android-build-support
> >> It seems inevitable that we will someday include such LLMs with
> >> Internet-in-a-Box, and, why not also the primary mobile apps
> >>
> >
> > Eventually, yes. A good reason to renew attention to mobile as a
> canonical
> > wiki experience.
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/R2KSXD3VE4MPGSIIYCPUMFXFPIY7D5CH/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2023 02:05:06 -0400
> From: Kunal Mehta <legoktm@debian.org>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Voting open in the
> seventeenth annual Picture of the Year contest
> To: wikimediaannounce-l@lists.wikimedia.org, Wikimedia Commons
> Discussion List <commons-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID: <773a1201-373c-28c7-d390-1c94eb8e993c@debian.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format="flowed"
>
> Hi all,
>
> Voting is now open in the seventeenth annual Picture of the Year
> contest: <https://w.wiki/6bcP> - please vote! The first round of voting
> will be open for 2 weeks. There are over 1,100 pictures being considered
> this year and several new categories.
>
> Any user with more than 75 edits before Jan. 1, 2023 is eligible to
> vote; if you're not sure the voting tool will automatically check for you.
>
> If you have any questions, please see the help page: <https://w.wiki/6bcQ
> >.
>
> Thanks,
> -- POTY Committee
> _______________________________________________
> Please note: all replies sent to this mailing list will be immediately
> directed to Wikimedia-l, the public mailing list of the Wikimedia
> community. For more information about Wikimedia-l:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
> _______________________________________________
> WikimediaAnnounce-l mailing list --
> wikimediaannounce-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> To unsubscribe send an email to
> wikimediaannounce-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 10:57:52 +0100
> From: James Popoola <popoolaojames@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] WikiYouthCon Update
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>,
> Wikimedia developers <wikitech-l@lists.wikimedia.org>,
> african-wikimedians@lists.wikimedia.org
> Message-ID:
> <CAJHeAUBqf54xoCz6c==ZxbQKOf5cMZ3=
> h8XWwAYwuRMMRk1MMA@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="00000000000013f8bd05f9ad7619"
>
> Hi Everyone,
>
>
> The Wikimedia Youth Conference 2023 scheduled to be held in Spain in
> September will be the first youth conference in the movement.
>
>
> The conference grant team is eager to provide all relevant support in order
> to ensure that the conference is successful. But in order to do this, more
> time other than what is available will be needed. Therefore, they did
> recommend that the conference be moved to 2024 in order to avail more time
> to work on addressing relevant needs where possible.
>
>
> We are therefore advised to keep our preparations still going. We also
> understand that we could use this additional time to strategize more on the
> conference planning.
>
>
> We know that we had made a call for the conference subcommittees. We will
> reach out to the selected applicants to explain how the engagement could
> look like given this circumstance.
>
>
> Beyond that, we will still be working on the conference design and
> planning. We hope to keep you informed of all the updates as they come.
>
>
> We are happy to answer any questions or concerns.
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> James Popoola
>
> On behalf of the WikiYouthCon COT.
> --
> Best regards,
> James Popoola
> President, Wikimedia Fan Club University of Ilorin, Ilorin, Nigeria
> Co-founder, Wiki Loves SDGs Nigeria & TCD Africa
> Instagram <http://instagram.com/TheJamesPopoola> | Facebook
> <https://www.facebook.com/jamespopoola247> | Twitter
> <http://twitter.com/TheJamesPopoola> | Linkedin
> <http://linkedin.com/in/JamesPopoola> |Website
> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:James_Moore200>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 06:48:55 -0400
> From: Tim Moody <tim@timmoody.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Graph Extension
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Message-ID:
> <
> CANis2dD+QnEkyEoCv1twRM06wFpwo9KYZrhA4siv-pbWcURkNw@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="0000000000005c660605f9ae2c16"
>
> Dear Wikimedians,
>
> Yesterday it was announced that the Graph extension has been disabled due
> to security vulnerabilities. Having the ability to visualize data is a
> powerful tool in presenting information within a wikipedia page, so it is
> great to have such an extension.
>
> But this could be the moment to reach out to Our World in Data (
> https://ourworldindata.org/), who have an even better set of data
> visualization tools, based on similar libraries, that are actively
> maintained by a strong community. Perhaps there is an opportunity for
> collaboration. This will not be a short term solution, as forging OWID
> software into an extension will take some time and backwards compatibility
> is essential. But in the medium to long term it will result in better tools
> and more compelling wiki pages.
>
> I hope the community and WMF will support such an approach.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tim Moody
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 20:34:05 +0900
> From: James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Graph Extension
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID:
> <CAF1en7WX0H=
> eCqdqV_JOWeFCF9s4qb9C3tdzhcimPrdt9j_B5A@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="000000000000e3604205f9aecddd"
>
> And Tim has already done some amazing work getting OWID to function within
> a mediawiki install. One can see examples of these graphs here
>
> https://www.mdwiki.org/wiki/WikiProjectMed:OWID#How_to_use
>
> All about 3,000 graphs can be seen here
>
> https://owidm.wmcloud.org/
>
> James
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 7:49?PM Tim Moody <tim@timmoody.com> wrote:
>
> > Dear Wikimedians,
> >
> > Yesterday it was announced that the Graph extension has been disabled due
> > to security vulnerabilities. Having the ability to visualize data is a
> > powerful tool in presenting information within a wikipedia page, so it is
> > great to have such an extension.
> >
> > But this could be the moment to reach out to Our World in Data (
> > https://ourworldindata.org/), who have an even better set of data
> > visualization tools, based on similar libraries, that are actively
> > maintained by a strong community. Perhaps there is an opportunity for
> > collaboration. This will not be a short term solution, as forging OWID
> > software into an extension will take some time and backwards
> compatibility
> > is essential. But in the medium to long term it will result in better
> tools
> > and more compelling wiki pages.
> >
> > I hope the community and WMF will support such an approach.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Tim Moody
> > _______________________________________________
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> > at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > Public archives at
> >
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/U5GEMXBCBHITM7NACGH2VVYDXVRVJVVA/
> > To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 11:44:05 +0000
> From: Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Graph Extension
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID: <DB9P193MB1324D0C30D17EAF5E5887AB5EA629@DB9P193MB1324.EUR
> P193.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB9P193MB1324D0
> C30D17EAF5E5887AB5EA629DB9P193MB1324EURP_"
>
> Dear all,
> There are thousands of articles in many languages using Graph extension.
> At the Basque Wikipedia we are running a project to add climate data using
> it, and we were presenting it in some days. Is there any news on this?
>
> Best,
>
> Galder
> ________________________________
> From: James Heilman <jmh649@gmail.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 1:34 PM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Graph Extension
>
> And Tim has already done some amazing work getting OWID to function within
> a mediawiki install. One can see examples of these graphs here
>
> https://www.mdwiki.org/wiki/WikiProjectMed:OWID#How_to_use
>
> All about 3,000 graphs can be seen here
>
> https://owidm.wmcloud.org/
>
> James
>
> On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 7:49?PM Tim Moody <tim@timmoody.com<mailto:
> tim@timmoody.com>> wrote:
> Dear Wikimedians,
>
> Yesterday it was announced that the Graph extension has been disabled due
> to security vulnerabilities. Having the ability to visualize data is a
> powerful tool in presenting information within a wikipedia page, so it is
> great to have such an extension.
>
> But this could be the moment to reach out to Our World in Data (
> https://ourworldindata.org/), who have an even better set of data
> visualization tools, based on similar libraries, that are actively
> maintained by a strong community. Perhaps there is an opportunity for
> collaboration. This will not be a short term solution, as forging OWID
> software into an extension will take some time and backwards compatibility
> is essential. But in the medium to long term it will result in better tools
> and more compelling wiki pages.
>
> I hope the community and WMF will support such an approach.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tim Moody
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org<mailto:
> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/U5GEMXBCBHITM7NACGH2VVYDXVRVJVVA/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org>
>
>
> --
> James Heilman
> MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 14
> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2023 11:45:50 +0000
> From: Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder158@hotmail.com>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Graph Extension
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Message-ID: <DB9P193MB13246B980253134B18AD4EBEEA629@DB9P193MB1324.EUR
> P193.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DB9P193MB13246B
> 980253134B18AD4EBEEA629DB9P193MB1324EURP_"
>
> The Basque Wikimedians User Group is working in the deployment of OWID and
> the security review is pending: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T324989.
> As always, we have invested time and money on this, but it seems stalled in
> the Foundation side.
> ________________________________
> From: Tim Moody <tim@timmoody.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2023 12:48 PM
> To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Graph Extension
>
> Dear Wikimedians,
>
> Yesterday it was announced that the Graph extension has been disabled due
> to security vulnerabilities. Having the ability to visualize data is a
> powerful tool in presenting information within a wikipedia page, so it is
> great to have such an extension.
>
> But this could be the moment to reach out to Our World in Data (
> https://ourworldindata.org/), who have an even better set of data
> visualization tools, based on similar libraries, that are actively
> maintained by a strong community. Perhaps there is an opportunity for
> collaboration. This will not be a short term solution, as forging OWID
> software into an extension will take some time and backwards compatibility
> is essential. But in the medium to long term it will result in better tools
> and more compelling wiki pages.
>
> I hope the community and WMF will support such an approach.
>
> Regards,
>
> Tim Moody
> -------------- next part --------------
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Wikimedia-l Digest, Vol 790, Issue 1
> *******************************************
>
--
Lucy Crompton-Reid (she/her)
Chief Executive