The discussion about where to hire is way more nuanced than it looks. The
world doesn't split between SF with astronomical salaries and people who
don't have access to clean water but are very cheap to hire.
Some points to consider:
Other cities in the US are cheaper to hire but with comparable (if not
better in some cases) standards of living.
Many European countries are way cheaper to hire. I'm comparing general tech
salaries, not WMF ones, Germany is basically half of the SF and Poland is
roughly one fourth. Both have decent standards of living and arguably even
better labour protection laws. Similarly the UK, Spain, Italy and France.
Also there are more things to consider: Talent pools, some countries have
strong tech communities like Greece, Poland, Ukraine and some countries
don't. Or We can't hire from residents of some countries due to safety and
security reasons, We also need to make sure WMF is a global community of
diverse staff.
Striking the balance between all of the above is not easy.
Am Di., 18. Apr. 2023 um 14:30 Uhr schrieb The Cunctator <
cunctator@gmail.com>:
> I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite
> money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the
> work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will go
> a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit
> having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and salary
> differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and
> should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But
> like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a
>> month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you
>> want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough left
>> over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick
>> Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs
>> around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be
>> wrong, but judging from
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see
>> that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
>> 16,000 a month.
>>
>> Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even
>> USD 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
>> bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding labor
>> laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
>> (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
>> just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not sure
>> that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of
>> WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> or the 3am meetings
>>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for
>>>> saving money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
>>>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries. Much
>>>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging
>>>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of
>>>> travel.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
>>>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
>>>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and
>>>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF
>>>>>>> to Romania or something)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
>>>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of
>>>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
>>>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and
>>>>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that are
>>>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little
>>>>>>> bit...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
>>>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
>>>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or
>>>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can
>>>>>>>> example a few.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason
>>>>>>> why this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one.
>>>>>>> Here's a few others off the top of my head:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
>>>>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they
>>>>>>> own.
>>>>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
>>>>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members
>>>>>>> angry.
>>>>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance
>>>>>>> to deprecate functionality.
>>>>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
>>>>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
>>>>>>> requests is not a roadmap).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head.
>>>>>>> And, not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
>>>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
>>>>>>> involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Boodarwun
>>>>>> Gnangarra
>>>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>>>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Boodarwun
>>>> Gnangarra
>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Boodarwun
>>> Gnangarra
>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> Public archives at
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/FY56RA7EBK6LF4CYLJJNMD6IU6YAG74Z/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/GD2STU5IK46XFQZSVEM4SMNYCGUTLVZN/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
--
Amir (he/him)
world doesn't split between SF with astronomical salaries and people who
don't have access to clean water but are very cheap to hire.
Some points to consider:
Other cities in the US are cheaper to hire but with comparable (if not
better in some cases) standards of living.
Many European countries are way cheaper to hire. I'm comparing general tech
salaries, not WMF ones, Germany is basically half of the SF and Poland is
roughly one fourth. Both have decent standards of living and arguably even
better labour protection laws. Similarly the UK, Spain, Italy and France.
Also there are more things to consider: Talent pools, some countries have
strong tech communities like Greece, Poland, Ukraine and some countries
don't. Or We can't hire from residents of some countries due to safety and
security reasons, We also need to make sure WMF is a global community of
diverse staff.
Striking the balance between all of the above is not easy.
Am Di., 18. Apr. 2023 um 14:30 Uhr schrieb The Cunctator <
cunctator@gmail.com>:
> I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite
> money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the
> work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will go
> a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit
> having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and salary
> differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and
> should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But
> like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a
>> month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you
>> want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough left
>> over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick
>> Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs
>> around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be
>> wrong, but judging from
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see
>> that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
>> 16,000 a month.
>>
>> Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even
>> USD 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
>> bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding labor
>> laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
>> (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
>> just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not sure
>> that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of
>> WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> or the 3am meetings
>>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for
>>>> saving money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
>>>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries. Much
>>>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging
>>>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of
>>>> travel.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
>>>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
>>>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and
>>>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF
>>>>>>> to Romania or something)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
>>>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of
>>>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
>>>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and
>>>>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that are
>>>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little
>>>>>>> bit...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
>>>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
>>>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or
>>>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can
>>>>>>>> example a few.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason
>>>>>>> why this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one.
>>>>>>> Here's a few others off the top of my head:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
>>>>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they
>>>>>>> own.
>>>>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
>>>>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members
>>>>>>> angry.
>>>>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance
>>>>>>> to deprecate functionality.
>>>>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
>>>>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
>>>>>>> requests is not a roadmap).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head.
>>>>>>> And, not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
>>>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
>>>>>>> involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
>>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to
>>>>>>> wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Boodarwun
>>>>>> Gnangarra
>>>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>>>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Boodarwun
>>>> Gnangarra
>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Boodarwun
>>> Gnangarra
>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> Public archives at
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/FY56RA7EBK6LF4CYLJJNMD6IU6YAG74Z/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/GD2STU5IK46XFQZSVEM4SMNYCGUTLVZN/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
--
Amir (he/him)