I think one of the key lessons of software development is that infinite
money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the
work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will go
a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit
having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and salary
differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and
should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But
like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.
On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a
> month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you
> want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough left
> over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick
> Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs
> around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be
> wrong, but judging from
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see
> that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
> 16,000 a month.
>
> Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even USD
> 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
> bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding labor
> laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
> (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
> just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not sure
> that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of
> WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> or the 3am meetings
>>
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving
>>> money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
>>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries. Much
>>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging
>>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of
>>> travel.
>>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
>>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
>>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and
>>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to
>>>>>> Romania or something)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
>>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of
>>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
>>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and
>>>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that are
>>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
>>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
>>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or
>>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can
>>>>>>> example a few.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why
>>>>>> this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. Here's
>>>>>> a few others off the top of my head:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
>>>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they
>>>>>> own.
>>>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
>>>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members
>>>>>> angry.
>>>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance
>>>>>> to deprecate functionality.
>>>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
>>>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
>>>>>> requests is not a roadmap).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And,
>>>>>> not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
>>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
>>>>>> involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Boodarwun
>>>>> Gnangarra
>>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> Public archives at
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Boodarwun
>>> Gnangarra
>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Boodarwun
>> Gnangarra
>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>> koortaboodjar'
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> Public archives at
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/FY56RA7EBK6LF4CYLJJNMD6IU6YAG74Z/
> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
money doesn't necessarily lead to good software development. I think the
work the new leadership is showing to address the structural flaws will go
a long way. There's certainly nothing immoral about a global non-profit
having an international staff. It is certainly true that wealth and salary
differentials are a challenge for any international organization, and
should be approached from a perspective of solidarity and mutuality. But
like many things in our world, it will always be a source of tension.
On Tue, Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to put things into perspective, in Argentina, earning USD 4000 a
> month means you're the fucking king. You can rent almost any place you
> want, buy food and all necessities, eat out everyday, and have enough left
> over to buy some land or a house in a few years. By contrast, a quick
> Google search suggests that renting a 1-bedroom apartment in NYC costs
> around USD 4000, while in Silicon Valley costs around USD 2500. I may be
> wrong, but judging from
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Foundation_salaries I can see
> that nowadays, WMF salaries don't go below USD 200,000 per year, or USD
> 16,000 a month.
>
> Rather than morally bankrupt, I'd argue that bringing salaries of even USD
> 5000 per month to people in countries like mine would be an economic
> bonanza and a smart use of resources, a win-win situation. Regarding labor
> laws, many non-US countries, like mine, have quite stringent labor laws
> (such as Argentina, due to a long history of syndicalism). Perhaps it's
> just a matter of finding countries that balance both criteria. I'm not sure
> that expanding development to cheaper countries is the solution to all of
> WMF software problems, but I think it could help a lot.
>
> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:55?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> or the 3am meetings
>>
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving
>>> money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
>>> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries. Much
>>> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging
>>> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of
>>> travel.
>>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
>>>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
>>>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and
>>>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to
>>>>>> Romania or something)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
>>>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of
>>>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
>>>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and
>>>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that are
>>>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
>>>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
>>>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or
>>>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can
>>>>>>> example a few.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why
>>>>>> this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. Here's
>>>>>> a few others off the top of my head:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
>>>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they
>>>>>> own.
>>>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
>>>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members
>>>>>> angry.
>>>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance
>>>>>> to deprecate functionality.
>>>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
>>>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
>>>>>> requests is not a roadmap).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And,
>>>>>> not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
>>>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone
>>>>>> involved, to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dan
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
>>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Boodarwun
>>>>> Gnangarra
>>>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>>> guidelines at:
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>>> Public archives at
>>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
>>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> Public archives at
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Boodarwun
>>> Gnangarra
>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Boodarwun
>> Gnangarra
>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>> koortaboodjar'
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/5GZTEHEANK4EXT27HU7UWOS6K5TB2DSU/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
> _______________________________________________
> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
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