or the 3am meetings
On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving
> money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries. Much
> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging
> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of
> travel.
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and
>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to
>>>> Romania or something)
>>>
>>>
>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of
>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and
>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that are
>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
>>>
>>>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit...
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or
>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can
>>>>> example a few.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why
>>>> this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. Here's
>>>> a few others off the top of my head:
>>>>
>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they
>>>> own.
>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members
>>>> angry.
>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance to
>>>> deprecate functionality.
>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
>>>> requests is not a roadmap).
>>>>
>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And,
>>>> not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
>>>>
>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone involved,
>>>> to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> Public archives at
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Boodarwun
>>> Gnangarra
>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> Public archives at
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
> --
> Boodarwun
> Gnangarra
> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> koortaboodjar'
>
>
--
Boodarwun
Gnangarra
'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar koortaboodjar'
On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:49, Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hiring people because they are in such countries as the basis for saving
> money is morally bankrupt, yet we'll happily draw from the pool of
> donations that primarily come from those more expensive countries. Much
> like we talk about equity but decide that some places arent worth engaging
> in because its too far to travel leaving others to shoulder the burden of
> travel.
>
> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 19:35, Felipe Schenone <schenonef@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Yet in some countries, like mine, paying for food, renting a place,
>> buying a house, etc. is far cheaper than in the US, so paying a lower
>> salary (in USD) wouldn't amount to a lower standard of living at all, and
>> doesn't feel immoral, at least to me.
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 18, 2023 at 8:00?AM Gnangarra <gnangarra@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Either we make software development cheaper somehow (move the WMF to
>>>> Romania or something)
>>>
>>>
>>> Hiring in countries with the worst labour laws and cheapest minimum
>>> wages is totally immoral. Especially in a community where equity is part of
>>> our culture we must endeavour to ensure that employees/contractors
>>> regardless of where they live paid fairly and equally subject to skills and
>>> responsibilities of the role. WMF already has many employees that are
>>> based in countries where such immoral employment conditions dominate.
>>>
>>>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2023 at 05:49, Dan Garry (Deskana) <djgwiki@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I agree with much of what Amir has said here, except one little bit...
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 17 Apr 2023 at 20:52, Amir Sarabadani <ladsgroup@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> And even if a software would have an owner, it used to be that the
>>>>> team was under so much pressure to produce new things instead of
>>>>> maintenance that the software would practically be without a maintainer (or
>>>>> worse, as even volunteers couldn't unofficially take the role). I can
>>>>> example a few.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I think pressure on a team to deliver new things is *one* reason why
>>>> this situation has come about, but it's far from being the only one. Here's
>>>> a few others off the top of my head:
>>>>
>>>> - Owning so many things that even if there was zero pressure to
>>>> deliver new features, the team still couldn't maintain everything that they
>>>> own.
>>>> - Incredibly powerful and incredibly complex features that teams
>>>> are afraid of touching lest they break them and make community members
>>>> angry.
>>>> - Conservatism and fear of community outrage causing reluctance to
>>>> deprecate functionality.
>>>> - Lack of understanding of the impact of the feature.
>>>> - Lack of a clear roadmap (a list of bug reports and feature
>>>> requests is not a roadmap).
>>>>
>>>> There's more but those are some that come to the top of my head. And,
>>>> not everyone one of those always applies to every situation, e.g. I
>>>> definitely don't think all of the items in your list should be deprecated!
>>>>
>>>> This causes the path of least resistance to be, for everyone involved,
>>>> to leave things in limbo and hope for the best.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org,
>>>> guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
>>>> and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>>> Public archives at
>>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/Y4YKOLNJKWAUQFNOVMZSKDSZRORSWFNB/
>>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Boodarwun
>>> Gnangarra
>>> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
>>> koortaboodjar'
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>>> Public archives at
>>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/P2JSB3JJ6ZOLPMBYV3EPYDP5RALWN7O6/
>>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Wikimedia-l mailing list -- wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org, guidelines
>> at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> Public archives at
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/message/OSWIMESHLJQ57TRBXAIEYTW7YLSDKX7V/
>> To unsubscribe send an email to wikimedia-l-leave@lists.wikimedia.org
>
>
>
> --
> Boodarwun
> Gnangarra
> 'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar
> koortaboodjar'
>
>
--
Boodarwun
Gnangarra
'ngany dabakarn koorliny arn boodjera dardoon ngalang Nyungar koortaboodjar'